50's vs. modern

[ozone]

Hello All. I hate to bring this up again but,
Does 50's style wiring brighten the guitar sound? Some say it does, some say it doesn't. Is there an answer?

[dwagar]

IMO it maintains the brightness, doesn't add to it.

[jonesy]

Wow, there are quite a few threads on this topic already but here goes...I just told one of my clients about 50's wiring and he switched it over himself and said that he thought it may now be somewhat brighter. Take that for what it is worth...???
The Truth is are that there are a couple of takes on the 50's wiring, resulting in slightly different Tones, also Caps are always a BIG factor and how they cut highs etc.., How the Player Dials in His or Her amp is also HUGE factor.

Best thing is to try it you yourself in your guitar and see what you think then you will know for sure. Caps are wire from tone to volume differently is the biggest difference over modern wiring.

I'm with Don, I would say that 50's wiring just keeps it from getting to dark rather than say it makes it brighter. Thats all for me, there are pages of this stuff on other threads...10-4 I'm Out
Peace, jonesy

[whytheflyband]

I was under the impression that with the Cap wired in modern wiring it actually cut some of the highs off even at full volume because the cap is tied directly to the pickup. I changed my ES 135 over to a variation of the 50's wiring ( I couldnt do it exactly because of the pot spacing and how you have to load and unload everything).

the guitar was brighter to me. It has a snarl that it didn't have before.

I am using Fralin P90's, CTS500k pots, and Angela/jensen Paper in oil caps

[jonesy]

However you want to think about it I suppose, 50's wiring may seem brighter than modern but all it is doing is giving you back the highs that are filtered out by the modern wiring.

[whytheflyband]

exactly

[thenowhereman]

With the volume at 10, it makes NO difference, it only impacts tone when the volume is lowered. But, yes, then it does make it sound brighter, or as has been said, just doesn't make it darker.

[strat les sg]

I just got an R-8 ,the tone was too dark for me so I wasnt happy with it till I read a post on the other LP site about movin the cap end from the end lug of the Vol. pot to the center & it was brighter ,nite & day difference, that saved me money on pups& rewiring ,this lil thing made me verrry happy now

[diceman]

I've gone to vintage wiring in 2 MIJ Epi Elitists and my R8 - I also went to PIO caps (Vitamin Q's) at the same time. The result every time is that the guitar sounds brighter, and has punchier and clearer highs, and more tonal variation control in the knobs.

Since I did the wiring and the caps at the same time every time, I cannot say for certain which changes are the result of the caps, and which are the results of the wiring.

[ES350]

I have a 90's LP Special that is a test bed for various experiments; just switched it back to modern wiring and I like it better. It crossed my mind that back in the day, Gibson amps were voiced a little on the dark side and many were cathode biased. Maybe the 50's wiring helped to brighten up the tone with these amps...

[strat les sg]

heres another mod which can brighten things up a bit Thanks Mapleflame!! - Les Paul Forum

[Tone Seeker]

Originally Posted by ozone

Hello All. I hate to bring this up again but,
Does 50's style wiring brighten the guitar sound? Some say it does, some say it doesn't. Is there an answer?

To respond to the OP, 50's wiring causes a peak in and around 4KHz, which adds brightness. This is with volume and tone controls at 10. The added brightness can be subtle, and is desirable in some cases but not in others. When I tried 50's on my guitar I preferred it on the neck PUP but I did not like it on the bridge. Overall, things were better for me using modern wiring. It's easy to try both to see which you prefer.

Here's a link which has a graph showing the frequency response of both 50's and modern wiring circuits. You'll see the peak I'm talking about in the first graph.

GuitarNutz 2 - Modern and 50's Wiring

Best,

Terry.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Tone Seeker

To respond to the OP, 50's wiring causes a peak in and around 4KHz, which adds brightness. This is with volume and tone controls at 10. The added brightness can be subtle, and is desirable in some cases but not in others. When I tried 50's on my guitar I preferred it on the neck PUP but I did not like it on the bridge. Overall, things were better for me using modern wiring. It's easy to try both to see which you prefer.

Here's a link which has a graph showing the frequency response of both 50's and modern wiring circuits. You'll see the peak I'm talking about in the first graph.

GuitarNutz 2 - Modern and 50's Wiring

Best,

Terry.

Very interesting, but I wonder how accurate that would be in the real world taking amp settings into consideration?
Say for instance if there is a peak at 4k with the 50's wiring, but you have that frequency rolled off on your amp, then it would be possible to hear very little if any difference at all between the 2 wiring methods?
IMO the way a players amp is dialed in is about 50% of the Voice or Total Tone picture and seems to get over looked and rarely discussed.
You can debate 50's wiring versus Modern all you want, but I bet I can dial in your amp to where either of those wiring styles sound pretty good. Then there are pickups and caps and bleed kits and all the other things that can make same set-up vary from guitar to guitar. Burstbuckers with 50's wiring will sound different then say a 498/500?
If you doubt that the eq on your amp is critical trying rolling off the bass mid or treble completely and listen to what happens to your guitar Tone. Sometimes changing a setting from 5-7 on the mids can make a huge difference.
When I was running sound, I could bring up a persons voice in the Mix by just changing the EQ, not the volume of that channel. Certain mids freq like the 4k are also where the human voice is as well. So when you you say a guitar has a certain vocal quality it is because of the frequencies it is or is not reproducing out of the speaker.
I have heard the Tone of excellent sounding guitars polluted by countless foot pedals and incorrectly set amps.
Take an amp and dial it in for a Tele and take the same amp and dial it in for an LP, do you think the settings will be the same? IMO Having your Amp Dialed in properly is Really the Key to getting the Most from your guitar wiring.

[Tone Seeker]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Very interesting, but I wonder how accurate that would be in the real world taking amp settings into consideration?

Hi Jonesy. I agree that amp settings can and do obscure, mask, or in some cases even enhance, the peak produced by 50's wiring. None the less, 50's wiring does indeed have an upper peak.

The sound we create is the sum of all the pieces, from the musicians fingers, to the guitar and to the amp. It's a system and one piece may mask or enhance the qualities of another piece.

I like what you said in your earlier post. . . . "try it for yourself". That's the only way to know if it will help or hinder, or if you even hear it in your system.



Terry.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by Tone Seeker

Hi Jonesy. I agree that amp settings can and do obscure, mask, or in some cases even enhance, the peak produced by 50's wiring. None the less, 50's wiring does indeed have an upper peak.

The sound we create is the sum of all the pieces, from the musicians fingers, to the guitar and to the amp. It's a system and one piece may mask or enhance the qualities of another piece.

I like what you said in your earlier post. . . . . That's the only way to know if it will help or hinder, or if you even hear it in your system.



Terry.

Like they say "Results May Vary" and it is always best to "try it for yourself" I just had to bring up the "AMP FACTOR" it is seldom discussed and often overlooked. Amp settings play a HUGE role, and can negate or enhance your guitars Tone. I am just suggesting that you try playing with the dials on your amp, you may be surprised what you find

Peace, jonesy

[jonesy]

Here is an example of one of my LP harnesses with modern wiring, notice how caps go to right side of volume Pot...

[ozone]

Jonesy, Your LP harness looks sweet! I'm using 50's wiring on my LP but I'm thinking about going back to modern with the treble retention mod. I use my volume knob when I play. So when you roll back the volume with the modern wiring + treble retention, it'll retain the highs just like 50's wiring?

[alligatorbling]

Originally Posted by jonesy

Here is an example of one of my LP harnesses with modern wiring, notice how caps go to right side of volume Pot...

very nice

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by ozone

Jonesy, Your LP harness looks sweet! I'm using 50's wiring on my LP but I'm thinking about going back to modern with the treble retention mod. I use my volume knob when I play. So when you roll back the volume with the modern wiring + treble retention, it'll retain the highs just like 50's wiring?

Hey Thanks, I use the treble bleed kits across the 2 hot lugs on volume pot. Your guitar cable is actually what causes the "low filter" and takes the highs off your tone when you roll off of your volume. Bleed kits seem to work well with most wiring methods, hope that helps?

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by alligatorbling

very nice

Hey thanks Bro, those are CTS 500XL long shaft pots and a pair of .047 M
160P Sprague Black Beauties, Wiring loom for a Les Paul Pro with P-90's

[geochem1st]

Originally Posted by jonesy

..... Your guitar cable is actually what causes the "low filter" and takes the highs off your tone when you roll off of your volume. ...

Thanks for confirming this. EVERYTHING in your signal path affects the tone. The signal from a pup is so small, even the soldered joints are critical.

[lexluthier]

(Tone is subjective, so take this with a big grain of salt)

Pot brands also sound different. Take a CGE pot and compare it to a CTS pot of the same value, and the CTS is brighter. Something to remember when swapping parts.

Personally I don't like bypass caps. Some people love them. Same with 50's vs modern wiring. Whatever sounds best to you is the way to go! I remember over a decade ago when I realized old Gibsons were wired differently, I tried it and noticed the difference immediately. I caught a lot lot of flak from electronic weenies saying it can't make a difference.

One thing to remember is that the pots don't HAVE to be exactly at 500k. I like higher ohmage pots (550k +) for the neck pickup to add clarity, and for the bridge pickup depending on how bright the guitar naturally is, lower value pots like 425-450k on a bright guitar, closer to 500k for a warmer guitar.

I like to use my tone controls, so I don't put in big caps like a .047 to get rid of highs. I don't like caps over .027, they sound too muddy to me when the tone control is rolled back.