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Old 01-11-2017, 04:30 PM   #61
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Re: CITES update

Wow, a real eye opener! It is unfortunate that greed and lack of respect for our own planet has forced draconian rules like this to be enacted in the first place. If everyone acted responsibly, we would still have rainforests in South (and North) America, Public Office would be a temporary duty, not a career, and we wouldn't need lawyers (wouldn't that be nice). Unfortunately, generations of idiots have abused the freedoms we now capitulate to the overlords all too readily. It's time for the sheeple to wake up, before it's too late!

sorry, I'll get down off my soap-box now, thanks for listening l8r........
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:25 PM   #62
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Re: CITES update

Wow. Been digging around to see what the real world ramifications are to this based on a single transaction. I have interest in a guitar I have for sale. I'm in the US and the potential buyer is in Canada. The guitar is a 2015 model. It has a rosewood fretboard.

In order to be legit, I have to do the following:
1. Apply for a permit to export the instrument. $200US
2. Apply for a certificate for each instrument I'd like to sell. 1x$5US=$5US
3. Complete the application for for each instrument describing in specific detail the extent of CITES regulated material in the instrument by weight and composition. Including either an invoice showing the date of purchase and the manufacturer's explanation of the materials used, or a manufacturer's affidavit declaring the same information in the case an original invoice in not available.
4. Wait 60-90 days for approval.
5. Ship the instrument within a 12 month window.
6. If requested by customs provide additional information regarding the manufacture of the instrument and any and all requested proof of CITES compliance.

If these qualifications are not met, the instrument in question is subject to possible confiscation and/or destruction.

So this new CITES requirement, at a minimum, just added $205US and 60 days to the process of selling a guitar from a private party in the US to a private party in Canada.

It's odd to me that there isn't a way for the manufacturer to supply a sticker or tag that is imprinted with the same serial number on an instrument that reflects all of the necessary hoops have already been jumped through. Here in the US manufacturers already have to prove the CITES/Lacey requirements are met in order to manufacture the goods in the first place if they use restricted materials. This seems a significant imposition on a consumer reselling a used guitar.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:00 PM   #63
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Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAG7890 View Post
Care to elaborate??

I forgot to add to the picture.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:15 AM   #64
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Re: CITES update

The problems are beginning ...

I live in Switzerland, which is outside the EU. I asked Thomann.de who's one of the biggest dealer in Europe about buying rosewood guitars.

From now, they didn't ship these guitars outside the EU anymore, if they are under 1'000€.
For more expensive guitars (+1k), there are about 90€ of fees and min. 2 weeks of waiting for the certificate delivery.

It'll be a big pain for the market!
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Old 01-14-2017, 12:52 AM   #65
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Re: CITES update

There are some guitars i want from Japan that I saw on Digimart but it seems like such a potential hassle. Perhaps over time they will relax the rules on finished musical instruments. Anyone recently bring a guitar in from overseas?
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:48 AM   #66
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Re: CITES update

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Originally Posted by Cav View Post
The problems are beginning ...

I live in Switzerland, which is outside the EU. I asked Thomann.de who's one of the biggest dealer in Europe about buying rosewood guitars.

From now, they didn't ship these guitars outside the EU anymore, if they are under 1'000€.
For more expensive guitars (+1k), there are about 90€ of fees and min. 2 weeks of waiting for the certificate delivery.

It'll be a big pain for the market!
Hell, where's the problem with it? 90 Euros fee isn't that much for all the work they have and since evry dealer faces the same challenges, it won't be breaking any deals.

And as time moves on they will get more and more used to it and those paperwork stuff is just a little delay.

OTOH every swiss citizen has someone in the "großen Kanton" that could receive the shipment and you just bring your guitar over the border when shopping there anyways. No VAT deduction on export, no VAT and customs on the swiss side also.
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:19 AM   #67
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Re: CITES update

I just lost out on a Murphy Les Paul thanks to this crappy CITES.

Basically I found one that I had missed before in Japan at MikiGakki. I've done a lot of deals with them, but they would not allow me to put a hold on the guitar. Before they ship any instrument with Rosewood to the U.S. they need to apply to the Japanese Government with the CITES application for approval.

They said that takes 3 weeks and in that time the guitar can still be purchased by other customers locally. I offered to put a down payment down to hold it. I actually even offered to pay in full and they could ship at end of 3 weeks...NO GO.

so yeah...good luck buying from Japan to U.S. now!
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:29 AM   #68
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Re: CITES update

Yeah, I had someone from the UK offer to buy one of my guitars recently. I don't need the hassle, unfortunately. I feel bad for builders who have a large supply of rosewood and do overseas sales...nightmare scenario.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:24 PM   #69
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Re: CITES update

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Originally Posted by buckwild View Post
I just lost out on a Murphy Les Paul thanks to this crappy CITES.
no, thanks to crappy MikiGakki.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:47 PM   #70
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Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAG7890 View Post

............without Cites stupid Humans would still be buying stuff like Ivory, Gorilla Hands, Rhino Horn & chopping down Trees like there was no tomorrow etc. etc. etc.

Sure it is a PIA but you can handle any of this legally with the right paperwork.

My 2c FWIW.

Sorry, but need to go negative here.

Humans are going to do this whether or not there is a Cities Treaty.

You are talking third world countries. Do you think some piss poor third world guy that is living off the land gives two ****s about the cities Treaty, living "green" or "sustainability?"

Brazilian Rosewood is still being cut down every day....but because there is not as much opportunity to convert it, much of it is BURNED!

I have no problem with harvesting ivory from dead or dying elephants. Killing them for it? No. The PC crowd wants to "shame" everyone who loves or benefits ivory. Hey, tell that to the guy in Africa making some useful widget out of it.....what arrogance!

It's comical how we as guitar geeks (1%er's to the third world) on an internet forum project ourselves on to others (that don't even know, or care, that we exist) with pretentious arrogance.

Rant off.
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Old 01-14-2017, 07:09 PM   #71
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Re: CITES update

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Originally Posted by eric ernest View Post
Sorry, but need to go negative here.

Humans are going to do this whether or not there is a Cities Treaty.

You are talking third world countries. Do you think some piss poor third world guy that is living off the land gives two ****s about the cities Treaty, living "green" or "sustainability?"

Brazilian Rosewood is still being cut down every day....but because there is not as much opportunity to convert it, much of it is BURNED!

I have no problem with harvesting ivory from dead or dying elephants. Killing them for it? No. The PC crowd wants to "shame" everyone who loves or benefits ivory. Hey, tell that to the guy in Africa making some useful widget out of it.....what arrogance!

It's comical how we as guitar geeks (1%er's to the third world) on an internet forum project ourselves on to others (that don't even know, or care, that we exist) with pretentious arrogance.

Rant off.
Eric a good friend of mine grew up in South Africa, her Uncle was one of the Country's head Game Wardens for many years. She knows all the Tuskers by name & she knows A LOT about the Ivory & Rhino trade. A lot. She grew up spending a lot of time with her Uncle in the Bush. We've discussed this in detail many times over numerous Dinners.

Without Cities the Planet would be in an even worse state than what it currently is.

True you cannot stop poaching & illegal trade but you can make it more difficult & if that means I have to register for Cities on a yearly basis (here in Australia - which I am doing) than so be it...........even though Guitars are not using much Wood in the real scheme of things.

Is Cities or Government control perfect..........no, but no system is & it is a damn site better than the alternative.

To make a point, many years ago (~ 22 years ago) I met a person in the Singapore Airline Lounge at Changi Airport. We have about 3 hours to kill prior to each of our next Flights.

We got talking & he was quite open about being a Lumber Trader & goes on to tell me about his latest venture.

They moved heavy equipment (including D9's) on to a remote Island in Fiji & cut down all the Lumber. He said the hall was worth so much money that they left the equipment behind after loading the ship they had chartered. The Island was clear felled.

This is just one small example on what was going on at the time & still is (to a lesser extent I hope).

I'll let Jamman comment on BRW because he has experience & relatives in Brasil that are involved in Government Forestry protection & replanting etc.

Cheers, Rudi
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Old 01-15-2017, 03:06 PM   #72
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Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAG7890 View Post

Without Cities the Planet would be in an even worse state than what it currently is.

Is Cities or Government control perfect..........no, but no system is & it is a damn site better than the alternative.

They moved heavy equipment (including D9's) on to a remote Island in Fiji & cut down all the Lumber. He said the hall was worth so much money that they left the equipment behind after loading the ship they had chartered. The Island was clear felled.
Thanks for the reply, Rudi.

Unfortunately, it's this type of thinking that has put us where we are today.

There will always be unintended consequence to the government getting involved with something.

Example?

African governments will seize elephant tusks from poachers, pile it into a pile the size of a house and........BURN it. That limits the supply and drives the price up...which creates MORE poachers. Idiotic...

What they should do is sell it, which would lower the price, even if temporarily...THEN they could take that money and buy hundreds of guns, vehicles, and people to CATCH poachers.

Instead, the decision is made to make Grandma's family heirloom "contraband."

Grandpa's guitar is contraband.
Grandma's Piano is contraband.
Your mom's antique hair pins are contraband.
Your aunt's precious decorative antique is contraband.
Your antique board game is contraband.
...and on and on.

All of this is because people have bought into the concept that the planet is dying, and we're all responsible. The arrogant and sanctimonious do-gooders are in charge and they are penalizing us.

Unintended consequences.

The alternative?

That would be to "manage" the situation at the point of the problem and not the International stupidity known as the Cities Treaty.

When those ****ing morons stop piling ivory, rosewood, and other "contraband" up and BURNING it...get back to us.

This is how you DON'T run a country. (may help explain their plight.)

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...of-ivory-video

Oh, and It's NOT that the timber company left the equipment behind because they made so much money...It's because it was not worth the expense of extracting the equipment out of a desolate environment....like the US leaving an insane amount of military hardware in Iraq after the war. Much cheaper to "write it off."

Rant off...again.
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Old 01-16-2017, 09:45 AM   #73
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Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckwild View Post
I just lost out on a Murphy Les Paul thanks to this crappy CITES.

Basically I found one that I had missed before in Japan at MikiGakki. I've done a lot of deals with them, but they would not allow me to put a hold on the guitar. Before they ship any instrument with Rosewood to the U.S. they need to apply to the Japanese Government with the CITES application for approval.

They said that takes 3 weeks and in that time the guitar can still be purchased by other customers locally. I offered to put a down payment down to hold it. I actually even offered to pay in full and they could ship at end of 3 weeks...NO GO.

so yeah...good luck buying from Japan to U.S. now!
that's beyond ****ty of them, especially if you offered to pay in full and wait. What difference to them would that make? Sounds like that dealer is just using the circumstances to be difficult.

I'm glad I sold the last of mine internationally before this thing hit.
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Old 01-16-2017, 11:43 AM   #74
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Re: CITES update

I just shipped a guitar to France the other day. No issues. I didn't have to do anything. Customs didn't give a ****.

Y'all need to chill out.
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Old 01-16-2017, 12:31 PM   #75
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Re: CITES update

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I just shipped a guitar to France the other day. No issues. I didn't have to do anything. Customs didn't give a ****.

Y'all need to chill out.

Yeah, but, has it been delivered yet?
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Old 01-17-2017, 01:58 AM   #76
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Re: CITES update

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Yeah, but, has it been delivered yet?
Exactly! It might get delivered as fire wood!
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Old 01-17-2017, 02:05 AM   #77
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Re: CITES update

CITES is intended to cut off the demand for endangered species which then will result in lower supply. May take some time but is worth it
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Old 01-17-2017, 08:25 AM   #78
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Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric ernest View Post

governments will seize elephant tusks from poachers, pile it into a pile the size of a house and........BURN it. That limits the supply and drives the price up...which creates MORE poachers. Idiotic...

What they should do is sell it..
Certain governments (and/or agencies) did what you suggested, "sell it". However, in a more discrete manner... They don't burn or destroy everything as they claim; "some" are kept for personal gain...

RAG7890's lady friend probably mentioned this to him before.

ps. this applies to all contraband
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Old 01-17-2017, 10:28 AM   #79
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Re: CITES update

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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post

CITES is intended to cut off the demand for endangered species which then will result in lower supply. May take some time but is worth it
Yes...governments have done a great job with sex, drugs, and alcohol too.

Let's throw you in jail and burn YOUR Les Paul first.
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Old 01-17-2017, 10:30 AM   #80
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Re: CITES update

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They don't burn or destroy everything as they claim; "some" are kept for personal gain...
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:13 AM   #81
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Re: CITES update

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Let's throw you in jail and burn YOUR Les Paul first.
my Lester is past CITES 1 and pre CITES 2, I don't even need to register it, I have the original invoice in the case. Whenever i'm trying to sell it (which is not likely) I'll have the CITES docs issued easily.

There will still be enough tonewood like ebony, rosewood etc. but from sustainable resources. Of course there are too many people like politicians and the rest of the monkey bunch filling their pockets instead of doing their jobs, but if we want to enjoy nature in the future too, we have to step on the brake somehow.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:42 PM   #82
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Re: CITES update

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if we want to enjoy nature in the future too, we have to step on the brake somehow.
We have been doing that...

An Elk was recently spotted in the upstate of South Carolina...the first in around 200 years.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/stor...ries/92718798/

Nature will usually replenish itself, if you just let it.

Also, don't kid yourself....mahogany and ebony will be next on the list.
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Old 02-04-2017, 09:53 PM   #83
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Re: CITES update

from Ishibashi today:

Thank you very much for your enquiry for the following guitar.

However we need to stop to ship the guitar which has Rosewood material for a while.

Unfortunately, we have had to place a temporary stop on selling items that has any parts made of either Rosewood, Bubinga, African Blackwood, and/or Cocobolo, to customers outside of Japan. This is because of new directives from CITES. We are currently working on obtaining an export license but it will take some time. In the meanwhile, we can unfortunately not help you with your inquiry.

You can read a bit more about the restriction here:
https://cites.org/eng/new_CITES_trad...tarts_02012017

We appreciate your understanding and apologize for the inconvenience.

If you have question, please feel free to ask me.

I hope to hear from you soon.
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Old 02-04-2017, 10:03 PM   #84
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Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckwild View Post
from Ishibashi today:

Thank you very much for your enquiry for the following guitar.

However we need to stop to ship the guitar which has Rosewood material for a while.

Unfortunately, we have had to place a temporary stop on selling items that has any parts made of either Rosewood, Bubinga, African Blackwood, and/or Cocobolo, to customers outside of Japan. This is because of new directives from CITES. We are currently working on obtaining an export license but it will take some time. In the meanwhile, we can unfortunately not help you with your inquiry.


You can read a bit more about the restriction here:
https://cites.org/eng/new_CITES_trad...tarts_02012017

We appreciate your understanding and apologize for the inconvenience.

If you have question, please feel free to ask me.

I hope to hear from you soon.
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Old 02-04-2017, 10:11 PM   #85
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Re: CITES update

I come from a town where two or three of the biggest timber-felling companies in the world are headquartered at.

I think the current CITES direction is working, because the timber boys are getting nervous these days. Greenpeace and the Bruno Manser Fund sure are getting financially backed up and hell bent on bringing them down.

Tangent: here is a slab of Belian or Borneo Ironwood or Eusideroxylon zwageri to be used as a cleaving board... pretty much one of the most valuable hardwood from South East Asia. This hard and dense species is rarely seen in the Occident. Over here where its hot and humid, Belian coffins wouldn't rot in a single lifetime.

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Old 02-04-2017, 10:26 PM   #86
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Re: CITES update

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Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
I just shipped a guitar to France the other day. No issues. I didn't have to do anything. Customs didn't give a ****.

Y'all need to chill out.
Oh awesome. This proves for sure that the entire thing is a non-issue
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:12 AM   #87
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Oh awesome. This proves for sure that the entire thing is a non-issue
Yeah, but we're still waiting to find out if it got delivered...or at least if the buyer had any hassles?
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:46 PM   #88
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Re: CITES update

Would I need a Cites form to ship a 54 reissue Les Paul Custom ( ebony and mahogany ) from the USA to another country ?
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:05 AM   #89
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Re: CITES update

ebony and mahagnoni are not on cites for my knowledge.
this shd be OK to ship and sell anywhere on the planet.
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:07 AM   #90
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Re: CITES update

I am patiently waiting for this M2M Dirty Lemon 58. It's currently tucked away in Europe waiting for the proper paperwork to return here to the USA.

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