MyLesPaul.com
Homepage - Sponsors - Subscription - Advertise - Spy  
Go Back   MyLesPaul.com > The Les Paul > Historics & Reissues
LIKE MyLesPaul on Facebook FOLLOW MyLesPaul on Twitter FOLLOW MyLesPaul on Instagram

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-13-2016, 03:00 PM   #31
jamman
Premium Member
 
jamman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: So. Fla.
Posts: 8,253
Thanks: 313
Thanked 209 Times in 41 Posts
Re: CITES update

Thanks OP for posting this important info ...

Agree that prices will go up .... Think any business wont make some profit on having to provide paper work for every guitar they make ?? OK ..... Wait and see . Funny those who think they will absorb any cost and not pass it along and add a small profit with each 1 ...

Buy your guitars soon , if you don't want to wait Months on end, to actually get it .

Since no business can predict the future(what a customer might do with it in the future) , they would need to supply a document for every unit produced at the time of mfg.....
Or,,, should they have computer records made and maintained to have sitting and waiting for a request made to have it produced ....?
Nightmare in the making .....
Try getting any info about a guitar made 25 years ago at Gibson good luck with that



Really good thing for me ... if things go south fast here in the USA ,,, I have a place to go .... Babes , Beaches , Beer (Brazilians really know how to party ) and all the BRW I can store What A life.

Sct13 .... BRW can be had . it's difficult now , but possible. $$$ talks (big time), in Brazil .
Want a BRW acoustic .... PM me .....
__________________

https://soundcloud.com/1jamman/stinger_jvm_1_take_someday

R0-aholic , for Life
jamman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2016, 09:29 PM   #32
nikku
Senior Member
 
nikku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Shibuya, Tokyo
Posts: 427
Thanks: 0
Thanked 31 Times in 11 Posts
Re: CITES update

I'm all for protecting endangered species but I think they have gone a little too far this time. I work for the Japanese Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, which deal with CITES documents and this is going to be a nightmare.

As I understand it this decision to include ALL rosewood under CITES Appendix II is due to the Chinese thirst for rosewood furniture. As it is very hard to distinguish between different species they would be imported as non-endangered species. This is why they had to add that this new Rosewood law wood apply to even finished products, which is unprecedented for Appendix II items.

Fair enough to add real endangered species, but then it is up to customs to enforce that. Not just do a blanket ban. At least have an exception for musical instruments or for under a certain mass of rosewood that would exclude furniture. As stated in a previous post, App II used to be only for raw lumber over a certain size, not finished products. You are free to trade in APP II items but you need to apply for permission for each item.

It is not a simple matter of filling out some forms and paying the fee. The forms are very complicated, you would need to get permission from CITES, plus the export control agency of the exporting country, plus from the importing country. This takes months and is a huge hassle (deliberately so)

If guitar manufacturers have to do this for each guitar they send overseas it will be a killer. I believe there are some provisions that allow a license for producers that streamline it slightly, but still a major hassle. It also means that only the big boys can play. Here in Japan you will only be able to get rosewood guitars from the major dealers that can handle it.

It certainly means no ordering from shops overseas anymore or selling internationally. This will affect businesses big time.

Certainly people will be playing more Les Paul Customs and maple neck strats!
nikku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2016, 11:47 PM   #33
goodvibes
Premium Member
 
goodvibes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fandango, CA
Posts: 725
Thanks: 87
Thanked 59 Times in 19 Posts
Re: CITES update

I found the following in the FAQ for the Lacey Act:

" Do I have to declare hand carried items such as passenger baggage?
Currently, the Lacey Act Plant and Plant Product Declaration is only required for products imported into the United Sates as a Formal Entry. Items in passenger baggage or personal items travelling with a person do not require a declaration. For example, if you are travelling with your personal guitar, you are not required to declare the plant material in the guitar. It should be noted that there may be other requirements associated with the international movement of musical instruments, such as the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) or the U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA), depending on the species that make up the instrument. If you have questions regarding CITES or ESA, please contact U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service at
lawenforcement@fws.gov."

And also:

"Do I have to declare musical instruments coming from or going to a performance?
Musical Instruments transported for performance purposes do not require a Lacey Act Plant and Plant Product Declaration. Only musical instruments being commercially imported as a Formal Consumption Entry would require a declaration. It should be noted that there may be other requirements associated with the international movement of musical instruments, such as the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) or the U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA), depending on the species that make up the instrument. If you have questions regarding CITES or ESA, please contact U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service at lawenforcement@fws.gov

So it appears that the Lacey act requirements are not as much of a problem as CITES could potentially be, especially if the guitar was made before May 22, 2008. I'm still reading the CITES instructions. The more I read the more questions and concerns I have😰.
__________________



"The problem with rare guitars is that usually the people willing to buy them are even more rare...."
goodvibes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2016, 04:44 PM   #34
PermissionToLand
Senior Member
 
PermissionToLand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 355
Thanks: 6
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikku View Post
I'm all for protecting endangered species but I think they have gone a little too far this time. I work for the Japanese Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, which deal with CITES documents and this is going to be a nightmare.

As I understand it this decision to include ALL rosewood under CITES Appendix II is due to the Chinese thirst for rosewood furniture. As it is very hard to distinguish between different species they would be imported as non-endangered species. This is why they had to add that this new Rosewood law wood apply to even finished products, which is unprecedented for Appendix II items.

Fair enough to add real endangered species, but then it is up to customs to enforce that. Not just do a blanket ban. At least have an exception for musical instruments or for under a certain mass of rosewood that would exclude furniture. As stated in a previous post, App II used to be only for raw lumber over a certain size, not finished products. You are free to trade in APP II items but you need to apply for permission for each item.

It is not a simple matter of filling out some forms and paying the fee. The forms are very complicated, you would need to get permission from CITES, plus the export control agency of the exporting country, plus from the importing country. This takes months and is a huge hassle (deliberately so)

If guitar manufacturers have to do this for each guitar they send overseas it will be a killer. I believe there are some provisions that allow a license for producers that streamline it slightly, but still a major hassle. It also means that only the big boys can play. Here in Japan you will only be able to get rosewood guitars from the major dealers that can handle it.

It certainly means no ordering from shops overseas anymore or selling internationally. This will affect businesses big time.

Certainly people will be playing more Les Paul Customs and maple neck strats!
Thank you for the informed comment.

Do you think they seek to confiscate illegal woods through customs? It seems to me this would be the only reason to require documentation for everything.
__________________


'07 Gibson SG VOS - Oxblood
'97 Samick SG-450 - Wine Red
'99 Samick SAN-450 (ES-335) - Cherry
'93 Samick SVE-130 (Strat) - Pearl White
'88 Epiphone Les Paul II - Black
'07 Epiphone Les Paul Ultra - Orange Sunburst
'14 Alvarez RF26-CE - Natural
'04 Squier Affinity Strat - Metallic Blue

Blackstar ID:60 TVP


"If I could hang out with Jimi Hendrix, it wouldn't be over dinner." - Slash
PermissionToLand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2016, 09:44 PM   #35
ARandall
Senior Member
 
ARandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,705
Thanks: 3
Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts
Re: CITES update

The distributor would be the only person required to fill out import details.....o/s stores rarely deal directly with Gibson USA.

If rosewood got to the point of becoming hard to ship/source due to this new regulation then you might see some specific exemptions written into the legislation and/or bulk applications of paperwork being implemented.
ARandall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2016, 12:42 AM   #36
nikku
Senior Member
 
nikku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Shibuya, Tokyo
Posts: 427
Thanks: 0
Thanked 31 Times in 11 Posts
Re: CITES update

No idea how far this will be enforced. People have been shipping Brazilian Rosewood guitars around the world and I have not heard of one being seized through my personal experience only. Ironically a friend of mine had a guitar returned due to them suspecting Brazilian (it wasn't!) but it does show people are checking. This was Germany that is notoriously strict.

There is a stipulation that for under 10Kg and for non-commercial there is an exemption. However no idea how they will define or enforce that.
nikku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2016, 11:10 AM   #37
FourT6and2
Senior Member
 
FourT6and2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,188
Thanks: 1
Thanked 19 Times in 8 Posts
Re: CITES update

lol wow. What you need to ask yourself is who is the author of that Reverb article. And are they a qualified source? The answer is probably not.

Guess what, I recently bought a (new) guitar from Belgium and had it shipped here to me in the US. I had to fill out CITES paperwork to get it cleared through Customs. It was NOT. A. BIG. DEAL.

You literally write in what wood is in the guitar. That's it. A Customs agent in Pennsylvania doesn't know the difference between Maple and Ebony. Let alone the difference between Bubinga from Ghana and Buginga from the Ivory Coast. And you are not required to provide and real proof. You simple write in, "Neck: Wenge [Latin name], country of origin. Body: Mahogany [Latin name], country of origin. etc.." Is that really so difficult?

Come 2017, you will be fine. You'll still be able to travel with your instruments. Nobody is going to take them away from you at the airport. The cop at the TSA or Customs booth isn't gonna give a **** about your guitar. You will still be able to ship your instruments. There will be nothing different about that process. If you buy an instrument from a COMMERCIAL/RETAIL dealer, THEY are responsible for filling out the CITES paperwork and including it in the shipment. If you are selling and buying a USED instrument from a PRIVATE PARTY on eBay or something, you will be just fine. Some countries are more strict than others, but that has nothing to do with CITES. For example, Germany takes it upon itself to be more anal about things like this. Even though CITES doesn't care.

Here is the ACTUAL document from CITES concerning any decisions taking effect in 2017: https://cites.org/sites/default/file...17/E17-Dec.pdf

Here is the ACTUAL link to the CITES listing what species are regulated and how: https://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php

Here is the ACTUAL link to the CITES Appendicies I, II, and III taking effect in 2017: https://cites.org/sites/default/file...2016-068-A.pdf
__________________
Ceriatone Chupacabra
Ceriatone Yeti
Rhodes/KSR Ares
SLO Clone
Bogner Cabs
'79 + '84 LP Custom Silverburst
Mayones Duvell Elite
FourT6and2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2016, 11:12 AM   #38
FourT6and2
Senior Member
 
FourT6and2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,188
Thanks: 1
Thanked 19 Times in 8 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Hicklin View Post
Not really. It's only an Appendix II listing, which covers raw lumber exports from designated countries. Honduras mahogany has already been on it for some years. Doesn't apply to finished goods as does the Death List, Appendix I, with such things as BRW and ivory.

At any rate, Americans and visitors to America need to be less worried about CITES than about the Lacey Act.
You are the only voice of reason here lol
__________________
Ceriatone Chupacabra
Ceriatone Yeti
Rhodes/KSR Ares
SLO Clone
Bogner Cabs
'79 + '84 LP Custom Silverburst
Mayones Duvell Elite
FourT6and2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2016, 08:10 PM   #39
m0b1liz3
Senior Member
 
m0b1liz3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,360
Thanks: 0
Thanked 13 Times in 8 Posts
Re: CITES update

I'm still having issues getting CITES officials in Aus and Canada to confirm I can being my guitars in with no issues. I was going to ship them with a few other belongings. I think it will be tricky to fly with 7 guitars... They told me it is fine if the guitar weighs less than 10kg in the box. Some people seem to interpret what CITES says as only 10kg of rosewood (ie only a few grams with a fretboard). That isn't how it sounded in the email response I got from them though.
m0b1liz3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2016, 12:17 AM   #40
oldflame
Senior Member
 
oldflame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 121
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Re: CITES update

KEEP CALM AND KEEP YOUR LES PAUL!

Wow! A lot of panic in these posts. Have a listen to this podcast from Fretboard Journal. It will help you get a layman's understanding of the new regs.

https://www.fretboardjournal.com/pod...s-john-thomas/
__________________
Missing the Real Ale.
oldflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2016, 03:13 AM   #41
RAG7890
Premium Member
 
RAG7890's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Amongst Mad Men, Australia
Posts: 11,084
Thanks: 928
Thanked 125 Times in 31 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldflame View Post
KEEP CALM AND KEEP YOUR LES PAUL!

Wow! A lot of panic in these posts. Have a listen to this podcast from Fretboard Journal. It will help you get a layman's understanding of the new regs.

https://www.fretboardjournal.com/pod...s-john-thomas/
+ 10

Most of the Posts, on this Forum, on this Topic are laughable to say the least.

RAG7890 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2016, 07:44 AM   #42
Barnaby
Premium Member
 
Barnaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 8,392
Thanks: 378
Thanked 439 Times in 45 Posts
Re: CITES update

I've just been reading this, which came out today from Madinter as a guide for musicians and builders:

http://www.madinter.com/media/import...ernational.pdf

According to this, the rules apply to the sale of wood whether raw or in a finished product:

Starting January 2nd 2017, when one buys wood or finished products containing any Dalbergia or Bubinga wood in a country outside the European Union, the supplier must obtain a CITES export or re-export permit, and the purchaser will have to apply for an import permit. (p. 11)

On travelling with your guitar:

I am a musician and I have an Indian Rosewood guitar (Dalbergia latifolia). I want to travel with my guitar outside the European Union. Do I need a CITES permit?
No. Dalbergias and Bubinga have a #15 CITES annotation. This annotation includes an exception for "non-commercial exports of a maximum total weight of 10 kg per shipment". This means that you can travel the world with your guitar without any CITES permits, as long as you do not sell it.
It does not matter if you earn money playing your guitar abroad. The only thing you cannot do is sell the guitar during the trip.
Only Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) needs a CITES permit for a non- commercial export, for example, if you are travelling with your guitar. (pp. 17-18)


What this suggests you can't do is to sell raw wood or something with rosewood in it without paperwork across borders.

As a builder, I'll be declaring my Indian rosewood and bubinga supplies sometime in the coming year (Jan 2018 is the deadline). I've probably got 10-15 fingerboards and a bunch of back and side sets for acoustics and ukuleles. Even if I never send the wood or instruments built with it out of the country, somebody might do so one day.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
I cant die, I have too many guitars to do.
My first and second build threads
My third and fourth build threads
My fifth and sixth build threads
Barnaby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2017, 02:00 PM   #43
grayd8
Senior Member
 
grayd8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,159
Thanks: 13
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikku View Post
Certainly people will be playing more Les Paul Customs and maple neck strats!
I'm guilty of that, rosewood on a Fender does nothing for me.

__________________
198? Fender Japanese Telecaster
2012 Epiphone Les Paul Prophecy GX
2012 Fender Custom Deluxe Telecaster
2014 Gibson 1958 Les Paul Reissue
2014 Gibson 1959 Les Paul Reissue
grayd8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 06:39 PM   #44
Easy Wind
Senior Member
 
Easy Wind's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 434
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 12 Posts
Re: CITES update

Involves getting TWO permits: one from the USDA(P621) and one from the FWS agency(3-200-32 application) - I'm in the middle of doing that right now after speaking to the U.S. National CITES Coordinator at the USDA. Yea, it's a major pain!
Easy Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 01:39 PM   #45
darkstar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 39
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Re: CITES update

From what I have read, this will be pretty devastating for international business as a dealer. Many of us have already taken a pretty big hit as the dollar in many countries is not doing very well. I'm wondering if there is an easier way to do this as from what I gathered from the Fretboard Journal podcast it's $75 and a 45-90 day wait to get the proper permits. No one wants to pay for something that might not even sell internationally, and no one wants there guitars to sit around in the shop. We try not to let our used guitars sit for longer than 100 days.
darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 03:27 PM   #46
Sct13
Premium Member
 
Sct13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Detroit Area MI
Posts: 15,276
Thanks: 41
Thanked 322 Times in 105 Posts
Re: CITES update

I agree and foresaw that as well, but I think the point IS to make it difficult and as non profitable as they can. They want too kill the trade all together. and its really aimed at the furniture industry. Not so much the guitar industry. Unintended victim...or collateral damage
__________________
14 Gibson LP R8 Lemon Aged MTM
11 Gibson LP R9 HM RDS
13 Gibson LP R0 CC#7 "Shanks"
13 Gibson LP R9 Wheat Burst "Gloss"
14 Martin 000-14F

"In the beginning, there was tone, and it was good."
Sct13 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 08:11 PM   #47
Lester
Senior Member
 
Lester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 322
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Re: CITES update

First question: So do these new regulations apply to ALL instruments, regardless of year of manufacture? A guitar made in 1982 with Brazilian rosewood would be an issue to take abroad?

Second question: Let's say that someone had a guitar made in Brazil with Brazilian rosewood from after 1992 (previous CITES regulation issue?). Is it legal to purchase such an instrument in a private sale (Ebay) within the USA without any CITES paperwork that proves it was legally imported (imported post 1992)?
Lester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2017, 09:22 PM   #48
wizard1183
Senior Member
 
wizard1183's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,631
Thanks: 2
Thanked 16 Times in 5 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester View Post
First question: So do these new regulations apply to ALL instruments, regardless of year of manufacture? A guitar made in 1982 with Brazilian rosewood would be an issue to take abroad?

Second question: Let's say that someone had a guitar made in Brazil with Brazilian rosewood from after 1992 (previous CITES regulation issue?). Is it legal to purchase such an instrument in a private sale (Ebay) within the USA without any CITES paperwork that proves it was legally imported (imported post 1992)?
2nd ? 1st paragraph: you need to provide a cites cert to take instrument abroad as far as I know.

As far as buying in US, you can buy all day long in the US without CITES. It's when leaving the country you need to provide. But tell em is a maple neck when it's RW or BRW and you're good to go
wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 12:30 AM   #49
LPJNoob
Senior Member
 
LPJNoob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Beyond the sun
Posts: 1,368
Thanks: 32
Thanked 17 Times in 12 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by THDNUT View Post
I'm glad I bought my instruments years ago.


This means prices for used guitars with striking rosewood will only go up. YAY!
Glad my Junior has an ebony fretboard, that'll make it to up even more too
__________________
2011 Gibson Les Paul Junior



How do they handle handicap parking at the special Olympics????
LPJNoob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 12:46 AM   #50
oldflame
Senior Member
 
oldflame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 121
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard1183 View Post
It's when leaving the country you need to provide. But tell em is a maple neck when it's RW or BRW and you're good to go
Joking aside, I'd say many of us have thought about cutting that corner so hoping they won't check is a bit risky. Certainly in the kick off period anyway.
__________________
Missing the Real Ale.
oldflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 12:51 AM   #51
oldflame
Senior Member
 
oldflame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 121
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkstar View Post
From what I have read, this will be pretty devastating for international business as a dealer. Many of us have already taken a pretty big hit as the dollar in many countries is not doing very well. I'm wondering if there is an easier way to do this as from what I gathered from the Fretboard Journal podcast it's $75 and a 45-90 day wait to get the proper permits. No one wants to pay for something that might not even sell internationally, and no one wants there guitars to sit around in the shop. We try not to let our used guitars sit for longer than 100 days.
It will certainly put a lot of overseas buyers off that's for sure. By the same token it will put a lot of sellers off who were shipping overseas.

I'd say the best thing to do is sit back and let the dust settle for a bit. There is going to be an initial panic and as explained in the podcast the paper trail will be backlogged for about a year.

I guess if you are still planning to sell overseas you'll have to make it clear to buyers that there is going to be a wait. If a buyer is keen then I'd be asking for a good deposit before you do any paperwork. Say at least 25%. A lot can change in 2 months.
__________________
Missing the Real Ale.
oldflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 03:16 AM   #52
Guitar_Ravi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 4
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re: CITES update

Question:

I live in Canada.

If I go take a trip to the US for a couple of days and purchase a guitar out there or get one shipped within the US to my trip destination, can I cross back into Canada without an issue?

I'm confused as I've read that travelers can pass through customs with a certain weight restriction of rosewood.

Would I need a permit to cross back into Canada or would I be fine to purchase a guitar in the states and cross back over?
Guitar_Ravi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 05:25 AM   #53
Sharky
Senior Member
 
Sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Frankfurt/Main Germany
Posts: 4,221
Thanks: 170
Thanked 23 Times in 11 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar_Ravi View Post
Question:

I live in Canada.

If I go take a trip to the US for a couple of days and purchase a guitar out there or get one shipped within the US to my trip destination, can I cross back into Canada without an issue?

I'm confused as I've read that travelers can pass through customs with a certain weight restriction of rosewood.

Would I need a permit to cross back into Canada or would I be fine to purchase a guitar in the states and cross back over?
let them issue the CITES documents and have them with you when crossing the border. No problem if the guys at the customs know their stuff.

Session, one of the bigger dealers in Germay, is supplying those documents but they say that they don't have experience how long it will take. They say that for example a swiss buyer needs documents on the import side too. They will provide the paperwork and the buyer in Switzerland has to go to his local customs office to have them stamped, sent back to session because they have to run with the guitar shipped. If you don't bring a guitar into the US but leave with one, you better have your homework done. Check your local authorities, they should be able to help.

Once there are enough processes done, it will be a piece of cake. OK, it's not nice or convinient, but as long as it helps to preserve a bit of our nature, I will happily go the extra mile
__________________
currently GASing for a Dickey Betts Goldtop, an R7 Blacktop with a natural back or a CC #1 aged Moore/Greeny/Franks. Have one and wanna get rid of it? Shoot me a message

mens sana in Campari Soda
Sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2017, 11:36 PM   #54
jlb32
Senior Member
 
jlb32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,473
Thanks: 6
Thanked 35 Times in 18 Posts
Re: CITES update

Sounds like a big money grab for those that voted this one in.

I know wood has to be protected, properly bought and documented but this charging for all rosewood documents, other than Brazilian and a few others, really seems like more about money than anything else.

Plantation Indian rosewood, etc..., most guitar builders use these days, is not endangered at all. It's a sustainable source.

If other sources other than guitar manufacturers are endangering the future of these resources then let them deal with the extra documentation and leave the guitar manufacturers alone.

Guitar wood used is minuscule compared to many other sources.

It's pretty common knowledge that most woods are not endangered because of guitars anyway. Most of it is due to furniture, wood flooring, etc....
jlb32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2017, 12:08 AM   #55
oldflame
Senior Member
 
oldflame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 121
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlb32 View Post
Sounds like a big money grab for those that voted this one in.

I know wood has to be protected, properly bought and documented but this charging for all rosewood documents, other than Brazilian and a few others, really seems like more about money than anything else.

Plantation Indian rosewood, etc..., most guitar builders use these days, is not endangered at all. It's a sustainable source.

If other sources other than guitar manufacturers are endangering the future of these resources then let them deal with the extra documentation and leave the guitar manufacturers alone.

Guitar wood used is minuscule compared to many other sources.

It's pretty common knowledge that most woods are not endangered because of guitars anyway. Most of it is due to furniture, wood flooring, etc....


You need to listen to the podcast to understand why ALL rosewood is listed in appendix 2.
__________________
Missing the Real Ale.
oldflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2017, 12:19 AM   #56
jlb32
Senior Member
 
jlb32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,473
Thanks: 6
Thanked 35 Times in 18 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldflame View Post
You need to listen to the podcast to understand why ALL rosewood is listed in appendix 2.
Maybe so, I have not listened to the podcast, but seems like ebony would be more of a concern that plentiful/sustainable plantation rosewood.

Just seems like a money grab IMO. If not, then why charge so much for a single application and why not restrict it to those that use major bulk like furniture, flooring builders, etc....

Major guitar manufacturers building bulk is nothing compared to those other markets.
jlb32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2017, 02:46 AM   #57
Sharky
Senior Member
 
Sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Frankfurt/Main Germany
Posts: 4,221
Thanks: 170
Thanked 23 Times in 11 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlb32 View Post
Sounds like a big money grab for those that voted this one in.

I know wood has to be protected, properly bought and documented but this charging for all rosewood documents, other than Brazilian and a few others, really seems like more about money than anything else.

Plantation Indian rosewood, etc..., most guitar builders use these days, is not endangered at all. It's a sustainable source.

If other sources other than guitar manufacturers are endangering the future of these resources then let them deal with the extra documentation and leave the guitar manufacturers alone.

Guitar wood used is minuscule compared to many other sources.

It's pretty common knowledge that most woods are not endangered because of guitars anyway. Most of it is due to furniture, wood flooring, etc....
processing and selling sustainable planted wood species isn't a problem at all. The plantation issues CITES documents and the makers devide this quantity into the fraction used for the specific instrument and issue a CITES document themselves. Once they are used to it, it's quite easy and not that much of additional work to be done.

And protecting all rosewood species makes sense, because no one can really tell the difference between the single subspecies.
__________________
currently GASing for a Dickey Betts Goldtop, an R7 Blacktop with a natural back or a CC #1 aged Moore/Greeny/Franks. Have one and wanna get rid of it? Shoot me a message

mens sana in Campari Soda
Sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2017, 07:07 PM   #58
Lester
Senior Member
 
Lester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 322
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard1183 View Post
2nd ? 1st paragraph: you need to provide a cites cert to take instrument abroad as far as I know.

As far as buying in US, you can buy all day long in the US without CITES. It's when leaving the country you need to provide. But tell em is a maple neck when it's RW or BRW and you're good to go
The "what rosewood" might not work because this one might be an acoustic with the sides and rear and fretboard 100% incredible BRW. I say "might", because who am I to judge what sort of RW they would have used to manufacture a guitar in Brazil. Could be Australian for all I know, or maybe it would come from Alaska.

Of course, I don't know anyone who bought such a guitar in the late 90's without knowing anything of CITES regulations at the time. This is all just hypothetical on my part.
Lester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2017, 10:44 AM   #59
Falconbill
Premium Member
 
Falconbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida
Posts: 1,223
Thanks: 58
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAG7890 View Post
While I don't necessarily disagree with the above if it were not for the regulations we probably wouldn't have any Elephants left or much of anything for that matter.

Sure, we don't live in a perfect World but the World is definitely a better place with stricter controls, even if some of them are silly.

My 2c FWIW.

Falconbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2017, 03:55 PM   #60
RAG7890
Premium Member
 
RAG7890's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Amongst Mad Men, Australia
Posts: 11,084
Thanks: 928
Thanked 125 Times in 31 Posts
Re: CITES update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconbill View Post
Care to elaborate??

RAG7890 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 






All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:59 PM.


Our Network: PRS Guitar Forum | Luthier Forum | SG Guitar Forum | Marshall Amp Forum | 7 String Guitar Forum | Acoustic Guitar Forum

MyLesPaul proudly supports St. Jude Children's Research Hospital

Copyright © 2006-2017, MyLesPaul.com. All Rights Reserved.