Recording a Rock Band

[nicolasrivera]

Originally Posted by Freddy G

Thanks Nic!
Final mix? no, just the first mix....but I always appreciate your critique so go ahead and tell me your thoughts

Drums!!! First thing that stroke me is the dryness of the snare, in my personal view i feel it need to be a bit more wide is too dead centered right now, and the open hihat at the beginning is a bit up, it is capturing too much of my attention from all the other instruments!.

I'm hearing this kind of tight drums for that song:

You know its hard to critique a mix because it is so personal and involves ways we interpret kinds of music so please take my observations with a grain of salt!

Fireflight - Unbreakable - YouTube

Fireflight - Unbreakable - YouTube

[lucidspoon]

The only criticism I can give on this recording is that the vocals seem too loud, at least on my speakers. I'm just listening to it on my tiny computer speakers, but that's where I listen to most music. Everything seems clear, but I can't turn it up very loud to hear all the underlying stuff, since the vocals end up being too loud.

[nicolasrivera]

Originally Posted by lucidspoon

The only criticism I can give on this recording is that the vocals seem too loud, at least on my speakers. I'm just listening to it on my tiny computer speakers, but that's where I listen to most music. Everything seems clear, but I can't turn it up very loud to hear all the underlying stuff, since the vocals end up being too loud.

When we where in the mixing process of our new album the mixing engineer used some limiting and compression in the final stage just tight up everything, when the mix was ready he turned of all those FX so in the mastering stage the magic could be achieved by specialized gear. So when we heard it with out the limiting and compression it sounded like not as good, but that is the room that the mixing expert has to leave for the mastering, can't give a mix sounding like a mastering to a master to master over an already mastered song....?? hope i said right?

In the mastering stage we asked for 2 to 3 takes of each song. Everything was done as analog as possible and was a great experience.

We mixed in Miami and master it in Argentina.

[Freddy G]

Hey thanks guys, comments appreciated. Lucidspoon, after listening for a couple of days, yes I agree the vocals are too loud, so I brought them down by 2 db. I still like them on top, that's usually my preference, I don't go for a vocal that's buried or small sounding so I still want it to sound on top...but you were right it was just too much. And thanks Nic for the snare rev tip, I tried a rev in this mix that is more spacious and thicker.

http://soundcloud.com/freddygabrsek/unknown-march-5

Nicolas, yes that whole mastering thing is a real issue, the band (and everybody else) wants to hear the mix so that it's comparable to all their other commercially released tunes, so yeah I mix with a master limiter on just to get that pseudo mastering pressure. But I do the same thing as you did, when it actually goes to get mastered I turn off the 2 bus limiting or any other "mastering" type FX and let the mastering engineer do his/her thing.
So to illustrate what Nic and I are talking about, here's the very same mix with all of the master 2 bus effects turned off (remember, it is a lot quieter so just turn your speakers up) :

http://soundcloud.com/freddygabrsek/unknown-march-5-no-limiting

Some might ask...why bother even mixing with mastering FX on the 2-bus if you're just going to shut them off to send it for real mastering anyway? That's a good question. The answer is that because limiting and mastering compression changes the dynamics and brings low level information more up front I want to simulate that relationship before sending it off for mastering, otherwise things like reverbs or subtle effects are not so subtle after mastering.

[nicolasrivera]

Originally Posted by Freddy G

Hey thanks guys, comments appreciated. Lucidspoon, after listening for a couple of days, yes I agree the vocals are too loud, so I brought them down by 2 db. I still like them on top, that's usually my preference, I don't go for a vocal that's buried or small sounding so I still want it to sound on top...but you were right it was just too much. And thanks Nic for the snare rev tip, I tried a rev in this mix that is more spacious and thicker.

http://soundcloud.com/freddygabrsek/unknown-march-5

Nicolas, yes that whole mastering thing is a real issue, the band (and everybody else) wants to hear the mix so that it's comparable to all their other commercially released tunes, so yeah I mix with a master limiter on just to get that pseudo mastering pressure. But I do the same thing as you did, when it actually goes to get mastered I turn off the 2 bus limiting or any other "mastering" type FX and let the mastering engineer do his/her thing.
So to illustrate what Nic and I are talking about, here's the very same mix with all of the master 2 bus effects turned off (remember, it is a lot quieter so just turn your speakers up) :

http://soundcloud.com/freddygabrsek/unknown-march-5-no-limiting

Some might ask...why bother even mixing with mastering FX on the 2-bus if you're just going to shut them off to send it for real mastering anyway? That's a good question. The answer is that because limiting and mastering compression changes the dynamics and brings low level information more up front I want to simulate that relationship before sending it off for mastering, otherwise things like reverbs or subtle effects are not so subtle after mastering.

Loving it already Freddy!!!! i really like this song!!!

[Freddy G]

Thanks Nic...What do you think of the snare rev?

[babatube]

Originally Posted by Freddy G

Hey thanks guys, comments appreciated. Lucidspoon, after listening for a couple of days, yes I agree the vocals are too loud, so I brought them down by 2 db. I still like them on top, that's usually my preference, I don't go for a vocal that's buried or small sounding so I still want it to sound on top...but you were right it was just too much. And thanks Nic for the snare rev tip, I tried a rev in this mix that is more spacious and thicker.

http://soundcloud.com/freddygabrsek/unknown-march-5

Nicolas, yes that whole mastering thing is a real issue, the band (and everybody else) wants to hear the mix so that it's comparable to all their other commercially released tunes, so yeah I mix with a master limiter on just to get that pseudo mastering pressure. But I do the same thing as you did, when it actually goes to get mastered I turn off the 2 bus limiting or any other "mastering" type FX and let the mastering engineer do his/her thing.
So to illustrate what Nic and I are talking about, here's the very same mix with all of the master 2 bus effects turned off (remember, it is a lot quieter so just turn your speakers up) :

http://soundcloud.com/freddygabrsek/unknown-march-5-no-limiting

Some might ask...why bother even mixing with mastering FX on the 2-bus if you're just going to shut them off to send it for real mastering anyway? That's a good question. The answer is that because limiting and mastering compression changes the dynamics and brings low level information more up front I want to simulate that relationship before sending it off for mastering, otherwise things like reverbs or subtle effects are not so subtle after mastering.

i love the song!

the mix is great.
be careful of that L2.
i always mix my vocals low cause i know the L2 will pump them up, way up.

as i said before the mix is great! all the following comments are a matter of different perspective:

my personal opinion is that overall level the guitars and bass must be much higher.
bringing them up will make also the drums sound tighter.
the bass is high enough in volume but missing some of that good old low mid.
maybe a bit 150 hz boost and also a small 800hz boost would make it more clear.
i would add some level to the kick and some boost in the really low area
probably around 67hz or even lower

the guitar sound is perfect!

[Freddy G]

Originally Posted by babatube

i love the song!

the mix is great.
be careful of that L2.
i always mix my vocals low cause i know the L2 will pump them up, way up.

as i said before the mix is great! all the following comments are a matter of different perspective:

my personal opinion is that overall level the guitars and bass must be much higher.
bringing them up will make also the drums sound tighter.
the bass is high enough in volume but missing some of that good old low mid.
maybe a bit 150 hz boost and also a small 800hz boost would make it more clear.
i would add some level to the kick and some boost in the really low area
probably around 67hz or even lower

the guitar sound is perfect!

Hey babatube...thanks for chiming in!
Haha...this is fun, mixing by internet committee
I can just see the credits on the CD now...

• Snare rev by Nicolas
• vocal level by lucidspoon
• guitar levels, bass and kick EQ by babatube

[babatube]

Originally Posted by Freddy G

Hey babatube...thanks for chiming in!
Haha...this is fun, mixing by internet committee
I can just see the credits on the CD now...

• Snare rev by Nicolas
• vocal level by lucidspoon
• guitar levels, bass and kick EQ by babatube

this is fun indeed.
i wish i had something to mix then you guys could fine tune me
maybe soon hopefully.

[nicolasrivera]

Originally Posted by Freddy G

Thanks Nic...What do you think of the snare rev?

Love it, now the drums feel more integrated and give a a great punch!

[lucidspoon]

Originally Posted by Freddy G

Lucidspoon, after listening for a couple of days, yes I agree the vocals are too loud, so I brought them down by 2 db. I still like them on top, that's usually my preference, I don't go for a vocal that's buried or small sounding so I still want it to sound on top...but you were right it was just too much.

I can definitely hear more of what's going on without the vocals being too loud now!

[Käi]

Hey freddy, is there as possibility to upload the raw tracks of one song? I've just listened to the rough mix of you uploaded (part 3 of your videos) and I would like to check out how the tracks sound separately and try my best to get a cool mix by myself, maybe others are intertested in some practice as well as me.

[Freddy G]

Originally Posted by Käi

Hey freddy, is there as possibility to upload the raw tracks of one song? I've just listened to the rough mix of you uploaded (part 3 of your videos) and I would like to check out how the tracks sound separately and try my best to get a cool mix by myself, maybe others are intertested in some practice as well as me.

I'll ask the band if they are willing to publish the raw multitracks. In the meantime I thought some of you might like to check out some live footage of this band.
This is from this past weekend, Crutch played a show and I mixed the front of house sound. The recording was done with a Zoom recorder straight out of the mixing board and also a pair of mics to catch the house/audience sound.

CRUTCH Live! Peej Drum Solo - YouTube

CRUTCH Live! Peej Drum Solo - YouTube

CRUTCH Live! "Lies" - YouTube

CRUTCH Live! "Lies" - YouTube

[middy]

Great thread and killer band. You build a lot of the gear you produce with. That's fantastic. Thanks for posting this.

[Leendrix]

The live stuff sounds slamming!! Killer work, again Freddy!

[babatube]

great recording.
usually those straight out of the mixer recordings lack bass.
since there are subs in most of the places you usually turn the bass lower than you would on normal speakers.
this result in a live recording when you can hear only the bass drum, singer and guitars

not here though, it sounds great and full!

freddy,
please tell me, is there something you are not good at doing?

[Freddy G]

Originally Posted by babatube

great recording.
usually those straight out of the mixer recordings lack bass.
since there are subs in most of the places you usually turn the bass lower than you would on normal speakers.
this result in a live recording when you can hear only the bass drum, singer and guitars

not here though, it sounds great and full!

freddy,
please tell me, is there something you are not good at doing?

Thanks babatube! Yes you are right about the spectral balance and how it translates to the outside world when recording a live board mix. I used to mix live bands 3 nights a week at a large nightclub for about 6 years. I recorded every night and got a handle on how to set-up crossover levels on the PA for that purpose. The one thing you can't really control though for instance is if there is a loud guitar amp pointed straight at the mix position, it doesn't need as much PA re-enforcement and so consequently it will be low in the recording. On the flip side, the vocal is often too loud in the recording because it needs the most amount of re-enforcement....that's life. If I get a good recoding I'm happy but I wouldn't compromise the live mix to get it, that's always the first priority.

BTW, my ballroom dancing sucks and so does my golf score

[renthepen]

Freddy,

When you started this thread it got me exited but it also happened at the wrong time - I was busier than ever and your thread got to a few pages real quick so I decided to wait before I read the whole thing

I managed to take the thread back where I left it today. Impressive and entertaining. Good job!

Thanks for taking the time to bring content to this part of the forum, it's really cool.

Now, I surfed a little on your Youtube channel and found this pearl:
Freddy in 1990...

YYZ - Rush (cover) - YouTube

YYZ - Rush (cover) - YouTube

[babatube]

Originally Posted by renthepen

Freddy,

When you started this thread it got me exited but it also happened at the wrong time - I was busier than ever and your thread got to a few pages real quick so I decided to wait before I read the whole thing

I managed to take the thread back where I left it today. Impressive and entertaining. Good job!

Thanks for taking the time to bring content to this part of the forum, it's really cool.

Now, I surfed a little on your Youtube channel and found this pearl:
Freddy in 1990...
YYZ - Rush (cover) - YouTube

nice mullet freddy
turns out freddy is a smokin' guitarist as well as a smokin' luthier and smokin' soundengineer.
at least he can't dance.

[tampa898]

Well. We finally started laying down some vocal tracks on my project over here. It's quite refreshing to hear some vocals in the songs we have been slaving with for what seems like an eternity. I'll post a tune or 2 shortly and get some feed back on what you fellers think.

Not to sure of the sound yet. I've been using K2 mic and an LA 610 pre. It's very smooth but it might need a little more edge. I'll see when I start playing with the mix a bit.

[Electroman67]

Very nice job on the Rush stuff,you've got some nice chops and had the sound dialed in nice........ that dude singing sounds alot like Rik Emmett,and that's one hell of a compliment.

[Freddy G]

Update on the CD. I just finished this mix. This song is about the destructive force of cocaine. It will be the first track on the CD. (warning...some language )
Cheers!


http://soundcloud.com/freddygabrsek/kill-for-the-kandy

[middy]

Originally Posted by Freddy G

Update on the CD. I just finished this mix. This song is about the destructive force of cocaine. It will be the first track on the CD. (warning...some language )
Cheers!


http://soundcloud.com/freddygabrsek/kill-for-the-kandy

Well the rest of the CD better be dynamite cuz this track certainly sets the bar high. Actually the intro sets the bar high for this track inclusive LOL. Great energy. Lead singer is powerful and shredding and great job recording the vox. Vox Sound huge which is good since anything else wouldn't cut it with this bands sonic assault. Some nice nuances in there too. Guitar whistlin' and pick scrapes. cool. Top shelf as always Freddy. Thanks for posting.

[Electroman67]

Originally Posted by Freddy G

Update on the CD. I just finished this mix. This song is about the destructive force of cocaine. It will be the first track on the CD. (warning...some language )
Cheers!


http://soundcloud.com/freddygabrsek/kill-for-the-kandy

Freddy, i agree w/ Middy @ you set the bar very high, that is the top shelf of recordings from what i hear. I'm very envious and proud to say i have conversed with someone producing such quality.....and only hope one day you can say the same, great job man.

[Detector]

Great thread!

This brought to mind a incident I had back in the 80's in a home studio. Our band, a 80's big hair band, wanted to record a demo tape so we contacted a local guy who had a studio and did a lot of recording. While recording I had my suspicions when the guy instead of mic'ing our Marshall's he ran a line-in. In the headphone the guitars sounded like fuzzy crap and I made the comment several times that I hope the recording doesn't sound like that. He said it wouldn't. Of course on the finished recording the guitars sounded like fuzzy crap just like what we had in the headphones.

We refused to pay the $300 fee unless we could redo it, because he claimed "satisfaction guaranteed", but he took me to court instead. I lost the case in court, even tho I had a recording professional along as a witness to testify it was a crap recording, because according to the judge "He couldn't prove if I was satisfied or not" HUH? Actually he was a friend of the guy who did the recording as they called each other by name when we entered the courtroom. I got screwed. Anyone knows you mic a Marshall.

[Freddy G]

WooHooo!
I just finished the Crutch record about an hour ago! I did my final tweaks and signed off on it. Now it's forever out of my hands...thank GOD!
Don't get me wrong...I'm proud of it and all, but I sure will enjoy taking a break from slaving over every detail for so long. I read somewhere once that producing a CD is like having a baby....and when I look back it's been a bit over 9 months since we started
Tonight I am making myself a nice Vesper and lighting up a Cohiba
Nighty-night!

[Orvillian]

You never finish a record....ya just give up.

[Freddy G]

hahaha! Yeah I've heard one similar to that before...you never finish a mix, you just surrender it

But seriously, it really is important to know when to stop. I was actually ready to sign off on it a couple of weeks ago, but the band kept thinking of the tiniest little tweaks and almost insignificant details that could have been good one way or the other.
Just because we have the capability to "fix" just about anything doesn't mean we should. I find beauty in the occasional wart!
The singer in particular pestered me a lot to fix that vocal line or syllable or whatever. And it always came down to a friendly battle. Just to give some background...the singer would come in record his part on a song. He would do several takes until I felt there was enough good stuff and he wasn't giving anything better.
Then I would comp together 1 vocal track from all those takes...but I tend to go for little things that were slightly quirky or a little less than perfect as long as it had a cool vibe. But then when the singer came back and listened to the comp I put together he wanted me to fix all of the things that I picked precisely for thier unique quirks! It was an arm wrestle to say the least.