Rubber gromets vs. Springs (pickup mounts)

[The_Sentry]

I've noticed this on newer Fender strats...but in a lot instances, the springs which were used to stabilize the pickups against the pickguard have been replaced with rubber grommets. The only conclusion I can make for doing this is to reduce the amount of vibrations to the pickups.

Does anyone know if these are made for humbuckers as well, and would they work well in a Les Paul style configuration with the pickup mounted to the ring?

[gmacdonnell]

I used to have a tube of this stuff: you just cut it to length, so you can use it on humbuckers, P-90's, whatever you want.

I actually can hear a slight difference between the springs and the rubber on Tele pickups. I haven't tried that with humbuckers, but it must have something to do with the magnetic properties of the springs.

But a lot of the rubber and latex spacers dry out over type. There is a kind that doesn't, (I got mine from Bill Lawrence) and it works really nicely.

[WildeStarr]

ALLPARTS guitar parts, bass parts, guitar amplifier parts



Part# GS 0330-000
1-Ft. Surgical Tubing
Silicone Surgical Tubing for Replacing Pickup Springs, 1-foot

Price:


$2.50

[The_Sentry]

Oooohhh....thanks Wildstarr! (Ahhh....good 'ol AllParts. I'll have to get that through mah local moosic store.)

[WildeStarr]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

Oooohhh....thanks Wildstarr! (Ahhh....good 'ol AllParts. I'll have to get that through mah local moosic store.)

Might even have it at a local hardware store.

[5F6-A]

Originally Posted by gmacdonnell

I actually can hear a slight difference between the springs and the rubber on Tele pickups. I haven't tried that with humbuckers, but it must have something to do with the magnetic properties of the springs.

interesting

[gmacdonnell]

Originally Posted by 5F6-A

interesting

There are even some guys who swear by the differences, and mix 'n match to get certain sounds.

Personally, I just hear a tiny difference, that gets lost as soon as the band starts to play...

[rick13]

I can hear the difference in the gauge of the spring wire.
Rick

[5F6-A]

[Splattle101]

Yeah, my Texas Specials came with gromets. I thought it was a cool idea. Can't say I can hear a difference that's not down to the new pickups themselves, though.

I suppose it would make more difference on the bridge of a Tele, which looks to me like it's designed to be microphonic.

[gmacdonnell]

Originally Posted by Splattle101

Yeah, my Texas Specials came with gromets. I thought it was a cool idea. Can't say I can hear a difference that's not down to the new pickups themselves, though.

I suppose it would make more difference on the bridge of a Tele, which looks to me like it's designed to be microphonic.

That's where it makes the biggest difference to my ears. Though I know some Strat fiends who swear they hear a difference even with that.

The bridge of a Tele is very microphonic, but that's part of what makes them sound so unique.

I think Leo Fender was trying to design a really efficient way to make a guitar, but the "mistakes" are part of the charm of a good Tele.

[Nigel Tufnel's tech]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

I've noticed this on newer Fender strats...but in a lot instances, the springs which were used to stabilize the pickups against the pickguard have been replaced with rubber grommets. The only conclusion I can make for doing this is to reduce the amount of vibrations to the pickups.

It's not new, original 50's fenders came with them, my guess is it's to cut down on costs and be more vintage correct.

[gmacdonnell]

Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel's tech

It's not new, original 50's fenders came with them, my guess is it's to cut down on costs and be more vintage correct.

In fact, to be really vintage accurate, you need to go into one of the U.S.'s fine, outdated hospitals, and steal some (now vintage) surgical tubing.
It'll be from the 50's, and perfectly aged, (especially if it's been used.)


A joke...

[Nigel Tufnel's tech]

Originally Posted by gmacdonnell

In fact, to be really vintage accurate, you need to go into one of the U.S.'s fine, outdated hospitals, and steal some (now vintage) surgical tubing.

Yea, the stuff used to connect the drip to the needle is a must for retro junkies

[monroe]

The rubber will eventually dry out and become brittle. My 87 Strat Plus Deluxe has the rubber and it was toast last time I looked in there. It does dampen the resonances better if that's what you're after. You can also put a small piece of soft sponge on the trem spings to dampen them. I kinda like those ringing resonances in a strat.

[gmacdonnell]

The tubing I have from Bill Lawrence never dries out. It's actually opaque, a reddish brown color.

Monroe's right: the clear tubing dries out relatively fast. First it darkens, then hardens, and eventually becomes useless.



I used to own a bone-stock '65 Fender Mustang, (shouldn't have sold it, but it was way too short-scale for my hands.) I mean, the guitar was virtually untouched.

But the tubing must've dried out completely, because holding the pickups in place: old masking tape wrapped around the adjustment screws!

[Big John]

If the tubing diameter is big enough and the cuts are perpendicular, pickup sway is really minimized.

[skeeterbuck]

I think that the tubing is a tone robber on a tele or strat. That isolate the body/neck vibrations from reaching the pickup. The springs make the guitar sound more alive. JMHO!

On a humbucker mount, we all know how a the pickup can kinda flop around. I am planning on trying this...
Install the humbucker and adjust it to get the sweet spot.
Then...remove the pickup by removing the 4 pickup mounting frame screws. Measure the exact lenght of the springs and then replace the spring with a piece of aluminum tubing just large enough to slide over the pickup mounting screw. My hope is that the pickup will sense the vibration from the mounding frame that is screwed to the maple top.
If it doesn't worked as hoped, it just a easy swap back to the original setup.

[gmacdonnell]

Originally Posted by skeeterbuck

I think that the tubing is a tone robber on a tele or strat. That isolate the body/neck vibrations from reaching the pickup. The springs make the guitar sound more alive. JMHO!

On a humbucker mount, we all know how a the pickup can kinda flop around. I am planning on trying this...
Install the humbucker and adjust it to get the sweet spot.
Then...remove the pickup by removing the 4 pickup mounting frame screws. Measure the exact lenght of the springs and then replace the spring with a piece of aluminum tubing just large enough to slide over the pickup mounting screw. My hope is that the pickup will sense the vibration from the mounding frame that is screwed to the maple top.
If it doesn't worked as hoped, it just a easy swap back to the original setup.

That works pretty well, that mod. I've also direct mounted into the wood, and glued a screw in place in the ring so everything looks normal.
I use a small block of wood cut to size and placed under the neck pickup.
That's a even more noticeable difference.
With unpotted pickups, you almost get an acoustic sound when playing clean.

The downside is much more body noise.

I do agree with you about the tubing on Teles, (I'm not a Strat guy so haven't tried.) There's a big difference on the tele's bridge pickup between the springs and tubes, and the springs just seem to sound better.

Of course, the neck pickup is direct mounted, (for 50's and 60's style teles,) so it doesn't apply as much there.

[The_Sentry]

Originally Posted by skeeterbuck

I think that the tubing is a tone robber on a tele or strat. That isolate the body/neck vibrations from reaching the pickup. The springs make the guitar sound more alive. JMHO!

On a humbucker mount, we all know how a the pickup can kinda flop around. I am planning on trying this...
Install the humbucker and adjust it to get the sweet spot.
Then...remove the pickup by removing the 4 pickup mounting frame screws. Measure the exact lenght of the springs and then replace the spring with a piece of aluminum tubing just large enough to slide over the pickup mounting screw. My hope is that the pickup will sense the vibration from the mounding frame that is screwed to the maple top.
If it doesn't worked as hoped, it just a easy swap back to the original setup.

I tend to have the opposite opinion...the only place you should get the good vibrations is from the strings only...not the body....because when that happens, the chances of microphonic feedback at high levels increases dramatically (and no, it's not the good kind, either.)

I'm getting to the point where I am seriously considering stuffing the pickups cavities in all of my guitars with foam padding. (the only guitar I have done this to so far is the archtop....)

[gmacdonnell]

Originally Posted by The_Sentry

I tend to have the opposite opinion...the only place you should get the good vibrations is from the strings only...not the body....because when that happens, the chances of microphonic feedback at high levels increases dramatically (and no, it's not the good kind, either.)

I'm getting to the point where I am seriously considering stuffing the pickups cavities in all of my guitars with foam padding. (the only guitar I have done this to so far is the archtop....)

It depends on what kinda of tones you like, and what kind of amp you use, definitely.

If you use a whole lotta gain, it's a good idea for the pickup to be potted, and isolated for body vibrations.

If you play cleaner, and want more of an "acoustic" kind of sound, unpotted pickups, with a tighter connection to the body are better.

It will definitely increase the chance for feedback, but with well made unpotted pickups, I haven't had a problem with microphonic feedback.

Eddie Van Halen has been preaching the direct-mount idea for many years, and he's been using a lot of gain lately, but I think his pickups are double potted.

But if the pickups are really potted heavily, then I don't think it will make too much difference either way: the pickup needs to be slightly microphonic for direct mounting to make a significant tonal difference.


It's sort of like the idea behind the brilliant LR Baggs M1 acoustic pickup. It's a stacked humbucker, but the bottom coil is suspended, so when the top vibrates, the bottom coil picks up that motion, much like a contact pickup. the result is a far more accurate acoustic sound than any other magnetic pickup I've ever heard, (i've tried every high end model there is, Sunrise, Duncan, Fishman, Dimarzio, etc.)

For the same reason, direct mounted, or tightly mounted, unpotted, or very lightly potted pickups will give an electric a more complex, acoustic tone.

So, while I'd definitely not recommend that direct mount mod for many guitarists, if you play with less gain, and want a more rich, acoustic kinda of sound, it works great.

[The_Sentry]

Originally Posted by gmacdonnell

It depends on what kinda of tones you like, and what kind of amp you use, definitely.

If you use a whole lotta gain, it's a good idea for the pickup to be potted, and isolated for body vibrations.

If you play cleaner, and want more of an "acoustic" kind of sound, unpotted pickups, with a tighter connection to the body are better.

It will definitely increase the chance for feedback, but with well made unpotted pickups, I haven't had a problem with microphonic feedback.

Eddie Van Halen has been preaching the direct-mount idea for many years, and he's been using a lot of gain lately, but I think his pickups are double potted.

But if the pickups are really potted heavily, then I don't think it will make too much difference either way: the pickup needs to be slightly microphonic for direct mounting to make a significant tonal difference.


It's sort of like the idea behind the brilliant LR Baggs M1 acoustic pickup. It's a stacked humbucker, but the bottom coil is suspended, so when the top vibrates, the bottom coil picks up that motion, much like a contact pickup. the result is a far more accurate acoustic sound than any other magnetic pickup I've ever heard, (i've tried every high end model there is, Sunrise, Duncan, Fishman, Dimarzio, etc.)

For the same reason, direct mounted, or tightly mounted, unpotted, or very lightly potted pickups will give an electric a more complex, acoustic tone.

So, while I'd definitely not recommend that direct mount mod for many guitarists, if you play with less gain, and want a more rich, acoustic kinda of sound, it works great.

I know folks have a different take on this one, gmac....I am just following the line of thought which led to the development of the solid body in the first place...I want nice articulate cleans at high levels and not so much of that bad feedback you get from full hollow bodied guitars when crunch is applied...so for me, it's ideal to have as little sympathetic vibration affecting the pickups as possible.

[gmacdonnell]

I get you, man. It's definitely not something for everyone. I personally really like how alive the guitar feels this way, but it's more susceptible to noise and feedback.
That said, the trade off works well for me, and I love the extra clarity and resonance.

But it's not for the Marshall crowd (I'm looking at you, Sentry!)

[The_Sentry]

Originally Posted by gmacdonnell

I get you, man. It's definitely not something for everyone. I personally really like how alive the guitar feels this way, but it's more susceptible to noise and feedback.
That said, the trade off works well for me, and I love the extra clarity and resonance.

But it's not for the Marshall crowd (I'm looking at you, Sentry!)

Heh...I guess I am part of the Marshall crowd...but I'm not. I like that sound, I'm just not impressed with the Marshall I own.

Anyways.....Gmac, just got back from band practice. This guitar...it's wonderful! I have the cavities stuffed, but at the same time...I'm using a Tonpros System II locking bridge. And for the bridge and tailpiece, the holes were larger than the ferrules for the replacement bridge I put in, so I cut these thin strips of sheet metal to offset the difference.

I don't know what it is about this guitar....but even unplugged it has fabulous sustain. Harmonic feedback is just so easy on any amp, and nearly at any level. It's gotten to the point where the drummer gets pissed if I bring up my Gibson vs. my 335 knockoff. And, back to topic...if I didn't stuff those cavities, I suspect microphonic feedback would spoil the effect..(good feedback vs. bad feedback.)

But your'e right. We're not all the same. And, as a case for that other sound...if it wasn't in demand, semi acoustics and hollow bodies would have died out. But they're still around. So it's all good.

[gmacdonnell]

That reminds me: Heritage developed these HRW pickups that sound great. I don't know much about them, but they're somehow isolated from ythe guitar so even the hollowbodies don't get that bad feedback. Great idea from a terrific company.