The Official PAF Information Thread !!

[Bryan]

I'd love to see it

i'm digging every where to try to find the article, but it may be tomorrow..but seth states that most are machine wound, but he said you bet we'd hand wind some when they got a chance..how many, the article never said..but saying all pafs are machine wound would be incorrect.. according to seth..

[ThroBak]

Originally Posted by Bryan

i'm digging every where to try to find the article, but it may be tomorrow..but seth states that most are machine wound, but he said you bet we'd hand wind some when they got a chance..how many, the article never said..but saying all pafs are machine wound would be incorrect.. according to seth..

This Seth Lover quote is not correct. This is the quote.:

SWD: I read an article that someone said earlier humbuckers sounded the way they do because they were wound by hand and the newer ones were different because they were wound by machine.
Seth Lover: I can’t recall that anybody wound any by hand except people who were repairing. I wound sometimes, and if an old pickup was sent back in and they didn’t have a machine for winding it then it would be rewound by hand. All production PAF's were machine wound.

Seth clearly says that all production PAF's were machine wound in the final sentence from this excerpt. So the only PAF's that are hand wound are either repairs or counterfeit.

[Dave Stephens]

Here's another little known Seth Lover interview you'll enjoy as well:
http://www.vguitar.net/brands/details.asp?ID=28

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by ThroBak

This Seth Lover quote is not correct. This is the quote.:

SWD: I read an article that someone said earlier humbuckers sounded the way they do because they were wound by hand and the newer ones were different because they were wound by machine.
Seth Lover: I can’t recall that anybody wound any by hand except people who were repairing. I wound sometimes, and if an old pickup was sent back in and they didn’t have a machine for winding it then it would be rewound by hand. All production PAF's were machine wound.

Seth clearly says that all production PAF's were machine wound in the final sentence from this excerpt. So the only PAF's that are hand wound are either repairs or counterfeit.

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tone...interview.html



SWD: Where the coils wound by hand or was the magnet wire guided by machine?
Seth Lover: Only the experimental ones were wound by hand. Once we decided to make a bobbin and got our coil forms molded, then we set it up on the machine and I’m trying to think just how many; there was one machine that wound just four coils. I know there was one little machine and then we had a larger machine where we would wind more.

SWD: Was the wire guided on by hand or did it have an automatic traverse.
Seth Lover: It had an automatic traverse. (the machine automatically layers the magnet wire on the bobbin)

SWD: I read an article that someone said earlier humbuckers sounded the way they do because they were wound by hand and the newer ones were different because they were wound by machine.
Seth Lover: I can’t recall that anybody wound any by hand except people who were repairing. I wound sometimes, and if an old pickup was sent back in and they didn’t have a machine for winding it then it would be rewound by hand.

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tone...interview.html



SWD: Where the coils wound by hand or was the magnet wire guided by machine?
Seth Lover: Only the experimental ones were wound by hand. Once we decided to make a bobbin and got our coil forms molded, then we set it up on the machine and I’m trying to think just how many; there was one machine that wound just four coils. I know there was one little machine and then we had a larger machine where we would wind more.

SWD: Was the wire guided on by hand or did it have an automatic traverse.
Seth Lover: It had an automatic traverse. (the machine automatically layers the magnet wire on the bobbin)

SWD: I read an article that someone said earlier humbuckers sounded the way they do because they were wound by hand and the newer ones were different because they were wound by machine.
Seth Lover: I can’t recall that anybody wound any by hand except people who were repairing. I wound sometimes, and if an old pickup was sent back in and they didn’t have a machine for winding it then it would be rewound by hand.

Also note the last statement (I wound sometimes, and if an old pickup was sent back in and they didn’t have a machine for winding it then it would be rewound by hand.[/QUOTE]
Now what was old Loverman winding for? A repair could be speculative- He clearly states he wound Sometimes....There was handwinding going on babay!!

[Big Mike]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

The Unawinder?

Well I thought that was some funny shit.

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

The Unawinder?

Hey Big Mike We must have the same kinda twisted humor :l ol: I thought it was funny as hell too,
Sometimes these guys get tooooooooo serious

[ThroBak]

Originally Posted by MotorCity Pickups

Also note the last statement (I wound sometimes, and if an old pickup was sent back in and they didn’t have a machine for winding it then it would be rewound by hand.
Now what was old Loverman winding for? A repair could be speculative- He clearly states he wound Sometimes....There was handwinding going on babay!!

Yeah but here is a recreation of Seth Lover hand winding at Gibson.

Warranty Department Chief: Hey Seth we got in another one of those Charlie Christian pickups that went bad. It looks like you will have to pull out the spool of bailing wire and do this one by hand.

Seth Lover: SHIT!!!!

Now thats Funny!!

[Sgt.Pepper]

Apologies for my earlier rant, and here is some PAF info. Production PAF covers were made from various thicknesses and grades of nickelsilver and from the end of 1957 were also polished and nickel plated with no copper nor anything else under the nickel plating. Although the grades vary, the majority seem to be made from 14% nickel silver. The dies that made the covers were reconditioned various times giving slightly varied shapes which help with dating covers. for example, the first version were relatively sharp edged with an even radius all the way round except at the corners. By 1959, the top profile of the short edges had become curved giving them a TV screen type of shape, and by 1961 the radius around the top edge had become larger. The original bobbin tooling is now owned by Tom Holmes and he tells me that it was heavily modified over the years, to produce different versions of T-tops. On an original PAF bobbin, the square exit hole is very close to the pole pieces. It is well known that the circle around these holes is larger on the non adjustable bobbin than the screw bobbin. The exception to this is narrow spaced PAFs where the pins that make these holes were used the other way in the moulds, Narrow spaced PAFs used the same moulds as the regular version and the central core of the bobbin is exactly the same dimensions even though the poles are closer together. Under the windings, PAF bobbins have a part code starting with CF ( coil form) and also a number from 1-4 at the other end of the bobbin suggesting that originally, the tool made two of each bobbin. Towards the end of 1959, when double white bobbins were being used, the wire thickness dropped for a while giving pickups with DC readings of sometimes over 9K. It's interesting that Seth Lover comments on this thinner wire in his 1978 interview. Another clue to dating bobbins is the ejector marks around the top of the mounting screw holes which are different on different batches, and sometimes completely absent. The cellulose coating of the original 3M No.4 tape yellows with age giving the old tape a kind of green look in strong light. I believe it is pot luck which magnets came in PAF's but that is one of the great things about old guitars - you can try 50 of them and they'll all be different and you might only like a couple of them. Someone else will like a couple of different ones. Some of the original magnets were varnished! I'm guessing this was done by the supplier to inhibit rust but could still have an effect on tone. The bobbin mounting screws on the very first non-sticker humbuckers with unplated, unpolished covers were No.3 nickel plated steel which were quickly changed for brass screws. The size was also reduced to No.2 and sometimes you find a mixture of screws. The smaller No.2 nickel plated brass screws were used for a while at the end of 1959 to the start of 1960 rather than the usual unplated brass. All these bobbin mounting screws were phillips head and slot head screws usually date to later in the 60's. Since this has most probably long become boring, I'll stop now.

[FLICKOFLASH]

" long & boring" you got us sitting on the edge of our seats droiling & looking like this hanging on your every word

[BOBBO]

That was really interesting !!! Thanks Sgt Pepper !! Got any more good tidbits !!!

[cain]

Is it possible the bobbins warping is caused by the plastic shrinking, not the wire wound too tight?

[Nugget]

The bobbins are mounted in such a way so that the bobbin base is protected from possibility of warping during winding. However, the top of the bobbin has no such protection and is therefore susceptible to the ends curling up under the pressure of the traverse during winding. The plastic is quite soft.

[cain]

So, do you think they maybe warped right from the git-go when they were wound?

[BOBBO]

[ThroBak]

Originally Posted by Sgt.Pepper

Throbak, if you remember that Les Paul Forum post, the guitar with the brass cover was a conversion rather than an original '59 and possibly not an original cover. Sorry for the earlier post which has now been removed.

Thanks Sgt. Pepper I appreciate the apology and the good information.

[BOBBO]

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tone...f-pickups.html


http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tone...f-pickups.html

[Bryan]

why did you make 2 links bobbo...??
good info pepper..

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by Bryan

why did you make 2 links bobbo...??
good info pepper..

I just do it that way !!!

[BOBBO]

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by Bryan

why did you make 2 links bobbo...??
good info pepper..

he has OCD & AHAD & quite the hyper clown

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by cain

So, do you think they maybe warped right from the git-go when they were wound?

In a word, yes.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tone...f-pickups.html


http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tone...f-pickups.html

So any so called PAF using black or dark brown Plain Enamelled wire must be a fake. Great, that'll slash the value off most of the PAFs in the known universe!

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by Nugget

So any so called PAF using black or dark brown Plain Enamelled wire must be a fake. Great, that'll slash the value off most of the PAFs in the known universe!

It some times gets hard here to seperate the wheat from the chaff info on PAF's . Come on, IF you dont know for 100% what your passing as fact or believe to be fact, hold and or ask maybe somebody more in the know.
Nugget , This is not aimed at you but its to people who may post info ect thats more folklore than fact.
I've made mistakes in threads here, I have been corrected and I admitted when corrected I was wrong, Its human to make mistakes, Its being responsible to admit them when you do

[Nugget]

Couldn't agree more.

[Dave Stephens]

The plastic that was used on PAF bobbins is called butyrate but has a longer term for it actually. It is really soft stuff, I have an old dog ear P90 cover and it was made from the same stuff, you can twist and bend the cover easily. It also has a distinctive smell thats instantly recognizeable once you know it. I don't think this type of plastic is used anymore in industry.

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

The plastic that was used on PAF bobbins is called butyrate but has a longer term for it actually. It is really soft stuff, I have an old dog ear P90 cover and it was made from the same stuff, you can twist and bend the cover easily. It also has a distinctive smell thats instantly recognizeable once you know it. I don't think this type of plastic is used anymore in industry.

Can you describe the smell Dave ?

The information here was very interesting and helpful

[BOBBO]

Anymore info to share ??