The Official PAF Information Thread !!

[BOBBO]

[BOBBO]

[BOBBO]

Short space PAF



Regular spacing PAF

[Dave Stephens]

Well, based on those photos I wouldn't invest a dime in those pickups, the wire looks like it might be poly, those things could be anything, the shrink wrap stuff is way wrong, the tape is wrong...BAD.

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

Well, based on those photos I wouldn't invest a dime in those pickups, the wire looks like it might be poly, those things could be anything, the shrink wrap stuff is way wrong, the tape is wrong...BAD.

I wasn't looking to buy those Dave .. I just used them as referece photos of PAF's not knowing the guy in Sweden was bogus !! Lets talk about real PAF's and what you do know about them !!

[ThroBak]

At this point a PAF without the end tape says possible rewind or cobbled parts pickup.

Dave you may be wrong on that no brass covers idea for PAF covers. There are photos on the Les Paul forum of two different original PAF's in original Bursts that are so worn that the plating is worn through. One of those covers is nickel under the plating the other is brass underneath. There is no good reason for it to be brass but if those photos are of real PAF's then it happened in some cases.

There are quite a few holes in that collector info. Even some with Fralin. You can't really go with any one source of information on vintage stuff.

[BOBBO]

[Dave Stephens]

What I've never really heard anyone mention.....alot of people are being conned into paying vast sums of money for old PAFs. In my opinion they are investing in something that was never built to last, a very bad investment indeed. I've not really seen any pictures supporting it but some say the bobbins are often warped, which means they were wound a bit tight. The old plain enamel has a life expectancy and all of them will eventually FAIL, and tight coils are more prone to this than not. When they are 100 years old how many of them will still work? Obviously alot of them have failed and are failing now and they aren't quite yet 50 years old. Why would someone pay $10,000 for a set of these if they knew that they are all hitting an age where failure is more likely than not? These guys with more money than sense and dealers who care nothing for music, guitars or anything but how much money they can screw people out of, are working eachother into frenzies of greed. It wasn't that long ago players were throwing PAFs in the garbage can and putting DiMarzio Super Distortions in their guitars because they were the shit. Not alot of PAFs sound that great really. $10,000 for a pair of pickups that you really wouldn't want to play and are likely to fail in the next 10-20 years, what will they be worth if they have to be rewound. Its quite possible 10 years from now there won't exist any plain enamel anymore to rewind them with and those pricey pickups will just be paper weights.

[FLICKOFLASH]

Looking for pickup winders & parts guys for MLP children’s charity

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tone...l-winders.html

[ThroBak]

The price is out of hand for PAF's but nothing is really going to change that. Original Bursts are essentially priced as museum pieces right now. Having a bad sounding PAF is sort of like having an ugly Picasso, there just isn't one. Rarity and reputation will keep the prices up as long as the electric guitar is the pop instrument of choice. If they fail there will be conservators to bring them back to as close to original specifications as possible. Really the price has reached the level of investment grade pop music collectible.

[Dave Stephens]

I can see the museum pricing thing but there are PAFs out there that are real mediocre. The guy I work for, Mike Varney founder of Shrapnel Records told me last year he traded a set of PAFs for about $6,000 worth of gear, he was relieved to get rid of them and told me they sucked. So there's one guy who didn't like them. Its real probably that the higher ohm ones used minimal sized wire, there' are some that have hit 9K I've read about, 9K in a neck position is going to be pretty muddy. there are videos of Jimmy Page in the 70s playing and switching to his neck pickup and getting a tone that isn't appealing at all, mushy and boomy, so sure some of them are darn good but some of them probably the majority I bet weren't anything special. There are bursts out there too that have been passed over by rich famous musicians as sounding really bad. These guys selling PAFs on Ebay ALWAYS claim they are from 1959, there is NO way to date a PAF so its a sucker's game. I wonder too how much counterfeiting is going on, they would be real hard to counterfeit but it could be done by a machinist type with old machinery and injection molding machinery. At those prices there has to be some of that going on.

[Dave Stephens]

On the brass thing I think people are mistaking pickups that were GOLD plated with that being worn down so it looks like there's a brass casing. I made that mistake on that provide-net site. Seth Lover says in his interviews they used nickel silver and knew why it was being used. He also mentioned that the gold plating had to be thin or it killed the tone. If there's truly brass covers on an old LP it probably has non-original pickups. I've had discussions about this Wolfe and Lollar and they said brass was never used, this was after I thought that provide-net guy's site had truthful information. Brass is so noticeably tone killing I just don't see Lover allowing that to happen back then

[Sgt.Pepper]

Originally Posted by ThroBak

At this point a PAF without the end tape says possible rewind or cobbled parts pickup.

Dave you may be wrong on that no brass covers idea for PAF covers. There are photos on the Les Paul forum of two different original PAF's in original Bursts that are so worn that the plating is worn through. One of those covers is nickel under the plating the other is brass underneath. There is no good reason for it to be brass but if those photos are of real PAF's then it happened in some cases.

There are quite a few holes in that collector info. Even some with Fralin. You can't really go with any one source of information on vintage stuff.

Throbak, if you remember that Les Paul Forum post, the guitar with the brass cover was a conversion rather than an original '59 and possibly not an original cover. Sorry for the earlier post which has now been removed.

[WBPickups]

Originally Posted by ThroBak

At this point a PAF without the end tape says possible rewind or cobbled parts pickup.

Dave you may be wrong on that no brass covers idea for PAF covers. There are photos on the Les Paul forum of two different original PAF's in original Bursts that are so worn that the plating is worn through. One of those covers is nickel under the plating the other is brass underneath. There is no good reason for it to be brass but if those photos are of real PAF's then it happened in some cases.

There are quite a few holes in that collector info. Even some with Fralin. You can't really go with any one source of information on vintage stuff.

I beg to differ on this. I have worked some Pafs, Patent #'s, pre-T-Tops and T-Tops with no tape around the leads & bobbins. I have taken covers off and surprise no tape. As for brass covers, Gibson did not use brass covers on PAF's. If there is some out there, the covers didn't come from Gibson.

PS, Sgt.Pepper, Stick around.

[WBPickups]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

Pickup winders it would be really informative to hear some of the things you've found out about PAF's when you've examined them !!!!!!!!

I'll bite... It's late or early morning on the East Coast. I'll keep it simple from the ones I have dissected, repaired or just rewound.

Not a one was built to look pretty or was intended to function without the covers when they built them. The surround paper tape that was wrapped around the wire on the bobbins was usually wrapped poorly.

The pickups were always un-potted and the magnet wire was either wound too tightly (which usually warped the bobbins) or were loosely wound which if you pinched the sides of the bobbins it felt spongy. Both of these types of winds affects the sounds of the pickups. Which are not pleasing to the ears at least to me.

All the pafs that I have seen had 42 AWG PE wire that looked almost black but had a purple glow to it. Lead wires were taped with the same paper tape as the tape used to surround the wire on the bobbins. Most of the slugs that I have seen on old Pafs look very dull in appearance and the marks from cutting them varied from nice and clean to rough and pronounced. Readings and measurements of the wire were never consistent with the last. Magnets that I have been fortunate to have inspected have been either Alnico 2's or 5's although I did fix a set that had a 4 in a neck pickup and an alnico 2 in the bridge when we took it out of the guitar. Most of the mags lost a lot of their strength so I recharged them. I did have one set that I had worked on recently that both the bridge and neck read very, very low with 5's and I thought they sounded fantastic.

As for my personal feeling’s about Paf’s, they are really very inconsistent from one to the next. Some sounded fantastic, some just a little too polite and some just down right high spiky treble that hurts the ears. I have had the pleasure of hearing some great ones that to me represent a great PAF. Sounded sweet, clear and bit you on the butt with aggression when needed . Another personal opinion is I feel that the great ones are in the hands of people who will not let them go and the ones that come up for sale are either bad or not real PAF’s. Just my opinion.

DISCLAIMER; If I offended anyone in my long winded late night manifesto or came off at anytime as a know it all. I sincerely apologize. Just thought I would throw my 2 cents in…I am tired and off to bed….

[Dave Stephens]

Were these all long magnet PAFs? On the set that sounded fantastic with A5 magnets being very weak did they sound that way with weak magnets or did you recharge them then they sounded good?

[Dave Stephens]

What method did you use to determine alnico grade? the only really reliable method is a spectrum analysis, guassmeters are too vague....

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by WBPickups

I'll bite... It's late or early morning on the East Coast. I'll keep it simple from the ones I have dissected, repaired or just rewound.

Not a one was built to look pretty or was intended to function without the covers when they built them. The surround paper tape that was wrapped around the wire on the bobbins was usually wrapped poorly.

The pickups were always un-potted and the magnet wire was either wound too tightly (which usually warped the bobbins) or were loosely wound which if you pinched the sides of the bobbins it felt spongy. Both of these types of winds affects the sounds of the pickups. Which are not pleasing to the ears at least to me.

All the pafs that I have seen had 42 AWG PE wire that looked almost black but had a purple glow to it. Lead wires were taped with the same paper tape as the tape used to surround the wire on the bobbins. Most of the slugs that I have seen on old Pafs look very dull in appearance and the marks from cutting them varied from nice and clean to rough and pronounced. Readings and measurements of the wire were never consistent with the last. Magnets that I have been fortunate to have inspected have been either Alnico 2's or 5's although I did fix a set that had a 4 in a neck pickup and an alnico 2 in the bridge when we took it out of the guitar. Most of the mags lost a lot of their strength so I recharged them. I did have one set that I had worked on recently that both the bridge and neck read very, very low with 5's and I thought they sounded fantastic.

As for my personal feeling’s about Paf’s, they are really very inconsistent from one to the next. Some sounded fantastic, some just a little too polite and some just down right high spiky treble that hurts the ears. I have had the pleasure of hearing some great ones that to me represent a great PAF. Sounded sweet, clear and bit you on the butt with aggression when needed . Another personal opinion is I feel that the great ones are in the hands of people who will not let them go and the ones that come up for sale are either bad or not real PAF’s. Just my opinion.

DISCLAIMER; If I offended anyone in my long winded late night manifesto or came off at anytime as a know it all. I sincerely apologize. Just thought I would throw my 2 cents in…I am tired and off to bed….

WB .. That was very interesting !! These are the kind of findings I like to hear about ! Dave also had some good questions on your post !!!!!

[BOBBO]

Will .. I'm curious ?? How do you measure and recharge magnets ? What kind of equiptment do you use to anylize a pickup ? I've also heard that guas readings and density have alot to do with how a magnet sounds as well as the tension of the wind ! How do all these factors change the tone ?

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by MotorCity Pickups

59' would be right. I have that same one : ) Give me a few, I'll post some nice ones.

Where's those pics Motor ?????

[ThroBak]

Originally Posted by Sgt.Pepper

I wasn't going to post here anymore, but when such blatant misinformation such as this is posted by someone who slams other forum members, I feel compelled to say something. If you know your vintage guitars, you will remember that those photos on the Les Paul Forum were of a conversion, and a couple of original bursts. The conversion was the one that sported the neck pickup with brass showing through. As it happens, if you know your vintage pickups, it is evident by the shape that this is not an original PAF cover. The original bursts pictured, all had nickel silver covers. Dave, you are right, Throbak, you are wrong. End of story. Throbak, you have stated on this forum, as well as in private messages to other members, that because I made a mistake about which modern winders machine wind and hand wind, that no information from me is reliable. Well, how do you feel about information from someone who cannot tell the difference between an original '59 Les Paul and a conversion, or an original PAF cover and a repro, who's posts are littered with mistakes, and who is nonetheless very forceful with his opinions? I would say, from your own judgements, I wouldn't believe a thing he writes.

Thanks for the correction SGT. Pepper. My post was not blatant misinformation. It was based upon my recollection of what I saw months ago on the Les Paul Forum and I stated that my post was not gospel but based upon a recollection. I was pretty clear about that. I am happy to be wrong and corrected. Some people would rather be angry than wrong. I am not one of those people

I would like you to check your private messages and respond to mine of a couple of weeks ago. If you read it I think you will see it is reconciliatory and apologetic. I really don't have a grudge against you or anyone else here and I hope the same is true with you. I clearly think I got off on the wrong foot with you. I am making an honest effort to salvage your presence here as it relates to me. Maybe you might think I'm a nice guy with good information also in the process. Maybe not but i'm going to give it a try.

[ThroBak]

Originally Posted by WBPickups

I beg to differ on this. I have worked some Pafs, Patent #'s, pre-T-Tops and T-Tops with no tape around the leads & bobbins. I have taken covers off and surprise no tape. As for brass covers, Gibson did not use brass covers on PAF's. If there is some out there, the covers didn't come from Gibson.

PS, Sgt.Pepper, Stick around.

Will,

I'm happy to hear your opinion on this and value it. And again my post was based upon an old recollection and I qualified it as such.

I hope SGT. Pepper stays too.

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by ThroBak

Thanks for the correction SGT. Pepper. My post was not blatant misinformation. It was based upon my recollection of what I saw months ago on the Les Paul Forum and I stated that my post was not gospel but based upon a recollection. I was pretty clear about that. I am happy to be wrong and corrected. Some people would rather be angry than wrong. I am not one of those people

I would like you to check your private messages and respond to mine of a couple of weeks ago. If you read it I think you will see it is reconciliatory and apologetic. I really don't have a grudge against you or anyone else here and I hope the same is true with you. I clearly think I got off on the wrong foot with you. I am making an honest effort to salvage your presence here as it relates to me. Maybe you might think I'm a nice guy with good information also in the process. Maybe not but i'm going to give it a try.

Well spoken

[FLICKOFLASH]

SGT. PEPPER I think VERY HIGHLY OF !!! He has taught me plenty *

[Big Mike]

Originally Posted by WBPickups

DISCLAIMER; If I offended anyone in my long winded late night manifesto or came off at anytime as a know it all. I sincerely apologize. Just thought I would throw my 2 cents in…I am tired and off to bed….

The Unawinder?

[BOBBO]

How about some PAF info Mr ThroBak and Mr Pepper !!!

[ThroBak]

Okay I'll bite.

Here is some of what I know. Others are not required to agree.

All PAF's are machine wound. The nature of the tensioners and machine used to wind a PAF produces coils that are very tightly wound. This high tension warps the bobbin but produces a coil that is mechanically very solid. Even years later the PAF's I have unwound are still have very tightly wound coils. I think this more solid coil means that the PAF coil is very efficient at transmitting sounds mechanically through it and since the PAF coils is unpotted this translates into a pickup that is very good at capturing the acoustic qualities of the guitar. Very often sections of a PAF coil have very loose magnet wire and appear randomly wound. Some coils show no loose winds. This however is by product of winding machine set up and tolerances and not an indicator of hand winding.

Every PAF, early Pat. # to T-Top pickup I have inspected had either A5 or A2 magnets. If you have an LCR meter you can grade them yourself without question. Not to say that there are no other Alnico grades used for PAF's but I think the vast majority were either A5 or A2. The rough cast nature of the magnets also marginally lowers the inductance of the low frequencies of the pickup due to the oxidation layer on the magnet. PAF magnets often have the pole edges unground which further lowers the inductance resulting in a clearer low end. Often people think that all short PAF magnets are A5. Of the magnets I have the short PAF magnets are both A2 and A5. Magnet thickness varies with the PAF magnets with the completely unground rough cast magnets tending to be the thickest. The thinner A5 magnets often translates into a harsh treble dominant PAF.

I agree with the description of the PAF magnet wire color and will add that the wire has a drier feel to it than equivalent modern black PE of the same color.

The slugs in a PAF ride very close to the baseplate and very often touch the base plate. When the slugs touch the baseplate it gives a little different quality to the sound and feel of the pickup by changing it's mechanical resonance. Since a PAF is unpotted any change in mechanical resonance of the pickup will effect the tone since the pickup coil itself in inherently microphonic.

[Bryan]

All PAF's are machine wound

i do not have the evidence right this second, but i've seen a interview when making the PAF's and some are hand wound, and some are machine wound..i'll try to dig up this info, as i've seen the interview..but if i can't find it, i guess my post is useless.. but the majority of them are indeed machine wound, just not all of them..

[ThroBak]

Originally Posted by Bryan

i do not have the evidence right this second, but i've seen a interview when making the PAF's and some are hand wound, and some are machine wound..i'll try to dig up this info, as i've seen the interview..but if i can't find it, i guess my post is useless.. but the majority of them are indeed machine wound, just not all of them..

I'd love to see it. I have read a couple of things to support this but the most compelling is the Seth Lover interview in which he says that the only hand wound pickups at Gibson were repairs that were hand wound when machine was not available to do them. But if there were any hand wound PAF's from this scenario they would be extremely low in number.

[61LPSG]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

This collector who put this info up on provide-net is fairly knowledgeable but there are some big mistakes in his articles. The most obvious one is that Gibson PAFs used stainless steel or brass covers. These were NEVER used and no valid reason for ever having been used, especially BRASS. Brass kills tone quicker than you can blink and Seth Lover knew this. This guy doesn't have the knowledge that pickup makers have; I tried to correspond with him once and he wasn't very friendly at all. I'm sure if any other pickup makers here want to pipe in, especially Nugget, they can point out other mistakes in the information. I guess some valid info is better than none. Lindy Fralin has a two part article on the web which is much more accurate. As I said before don't believe everything you read just because its on the web.
Here's Lindy's info:
www.FlyingVintage.com - Guitar Collector's Magazine - October 2001 Issue - Lonnie Mack: Mr. Flying V and His Gibson Signature Guitar
www.FlyingVintage.com - Guitar Collector's Magazine - November 2001 Issue - A Few Secrets About Gibson PAF Pickups, with Lindy Fralin: Part 2

Dave great article thanks.