"Over The Pond Guy" PAFs

[ojedad23]

I would say something like : I don't own them nut I've seen ton f pics of them and read many review on a certain site, they appear to be great sounding paf replicas, with different levels of aging, etc

[V!N]

Lots of people who read certain sites have read about them, a "review" like that wouldn't be of any help help anybody. First hand experience, that's what makes a good review !

[Langisn]

Originally Posted by AllmanJoy77

Bobbo!!! Hes got a bunch! He deals them in the U.S.

I live in Europe, who would i contact?

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by Langisn

I live in Europe, who would i contact?

Email sent ...

[Langisn]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

Email sent ...

Tnx

I will mail you when i have saved up for my VOS goldtop.

[BOBBO]

[BOBBO]

A little PSA for those waiting on OTPG pickups right now or for those who may order in the future ... Due to increased scrutiny at customs from terrorist threats , The lead time for a set of OTP's is now 8 to 10 weeks ...

[Nigel Tufnel's tech]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

Due to increased scrutiny at customs from terrorist threats , The lead time for a set of OTP's is now 8 to 10 weeks ...

Fingers crossed they dont find any weapons of mass distortion

[V!N]

Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel's tech

Fingers crossed they dont find any
weapons of mass distortion

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel's tech

Fingers crossed they dont find any weapons of mass distortion

Oh no you didn't ... That's like one of my Dad's corny jokes Nigel !!!

[nicolasrivera]

Originally Posted by BOBBO

i see the scotch brite marks on that cover

Originally Posted by BOBBO

These look very nice ! I looked on youtube for videos and didn't find any . Are there clips ?

[Liam]

Can't remember if it was in this thread, but I did post some comparison clips of OTPG P90 vs. old P90 vs. OTPG PAFs. The clips were criticised, but I still feel they were honest, rather than gain/compression laden attempts to make pickups sound good. Should still be up somewhere, try a search.

The trouble with pickups is that you really need to be in the room, and preferably playing the guitar that contains the pickups in question. Clips don't really help with that.

They sound like my favourite PAF sounds, but that doesn't mean they sound like anyone elses favourite PAFs, as all PAF's differ. Certainly more Jimmy Page than Pearly Gates.

Liam

[nicolasrivera]

Originally Posted by Liam

Can't remember if it was in this thread, but I did post some comparison clips of OTPG P90 vs. old P90 vs. OTPG PAFs. The clips were criticised, but I still feel they were honest, rather than gain/compression laden attempts to make pickups sound good. Should still be up somewhere, try a search.

The trouble with pickups is that you really need to be in the room, and preferably playing the guitar that contains the pickups in question. Clips don't really help with that.

They sound like my favourite PAF sounds, but that doesn't mean they sound like anyone elses favourite PAFs, as all PAF's differ. Certainly more Jimmy Page than Pearly Gates.

Liam

If we all want to really truly hear the sound of a PAF or any other kind of pickup, just plug it in direct to a console, no amp, no effect and just listen to the quality of the sound, even if you think this is not the correct way to test a pickup because you will never play direct to a console, is the honest way to bypass most variables.

[rockmonkey]

Originally Posted by Nugget

It's not economical to have teams of people handwinding humbuckers and this is the reason big companies come out with absurd statements like this.
In the same way, individual winders come up with statements like this when the truth is that they can't handwind a good humbucker to save their lives.

I couldn't agree more.

I think the best humbuckers and the worst humbucker are hand wound. Some people, for whatever reason, just can't seem to do it while other do it with absolutely no problem at all.

[cain]

I've had three sets OTP pups and they are definately right at the top of the repro pile. As far as looks go, I haven't seen anything that even comes close to the OTP's yet. I've got a set of Sheptone Bluesky's coming though and I'm told they'll hang with the OTP's. As far as tone goes they may have a slight more push than most original PAF's but they surely have the right DNA. Lots of chirp, great highend compression and the notes really bloom when you dig in. The only bad thing about these pickups is the price and how hard they are to get.

[shotgunlew]

does the OTPG do p90's?

[rockmonkey]

Originally Posted by cain

I've had three sets OTP pups and they are definately right at the top of the repro pile. As far as looks go, I haven't seen anything that even comes close to the OTP's yet. I've got a set of Sheptone Bluesky's coming though and I'm told they'll hang with the OTP's. As far as tone goes they may have a slight more push than most original PAF's but they surely have the right DNA. Lots of chirp, great highend compression and the notes really bloom when you dig in. The only bad thing about these pickups is the price and how hard they are to get.

As far as looks go, shed is just as good.

To really nail the tone, however, you can't simply remake the original. Alnico production methods changed in the 70 and the change in production left us with a change in tone. This means that "exact" replicas are not possible and when people do try it they end up with pickups that don't sound quite the same because magnets are different. The only way to get the tone right is to find the NOS alnico magnets that were originally magnetized in the correct direction and those simply don't exist. This means that today the only way to get vintage tone is to deliberately use non vintage correct methods.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by shotgunlew

does the OTPG do p90's?

I don't know if he officially sells them, but he definitely makes a few. I've got one. He recently wound me a new bobbin for it, to match a 50s P90 I've got that I particularly like the sound of. Wouldn't even let me pay him for the work, just wanted the old slightly hotter wound bobbin back, as it takes him ages to make such realistic looking mid 50s bobbins.

When my world stops spinning quite as fast as it has just lately, I'll post some more comparison clips.

Here's an older thread on this:

Otpg p90

And some clips here:

Over the Pond Clips

He also makes Strat and Tele pickups. I've played a guitar with a set of his Strat pickups, and they are quite simply astonishing. The clarity and thickness of tone when AB'd with a set of Custom Shop Fat 50s was just ridiculous. Hard to believe they were both Strats.

Liam

[Liam]

Originally Posted by rockmonkey

As far as looks go, shed is just as good.

Do you think? No disrespect to Nugget, Shed pickups look great from the photos I've seen, but I think the OTP covers look better.

To really nail the tone, however, you can't simply remake the original. Alnico production methods changed in the 70 and the change in production left us with a change in tone. Making "exact" replicas don't sound quite the same because magnets are different.

Have you tried the OTPG pickups? Don't know what he does with magnets, I believe he has them specially made for the job. You're not his magnet supplier are you? They do look and sound amazingly faithful to an old pickup.

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by shotgunlew

does the OTPG do p90's?

OTPG doesn't do P90's ... At least not for the general public ...

[rockmonkey]

Originally Posted by Liam

Do you think? No disrespect to Nugget, Shed pickups look great from the photos I've seen, but I think the OTP covers look better.

I have had OTP's pickups in my workshop and I've had shed pickups in my workshop. Neither were for anything other than my own personal enlightenment and both were as good as each other as far as vintage look and vintage correctness.

Vintage tone is a ball of wax I don't want to get into because no 2 vintage pickups sounded the same. Neither sounded like any vintage pickups I've had but both were close and no 2 vintage pickups I've ever had sounded the same either so its not fair to comment there.

Have you tried the OTPG pickups? Don't know what he does with magnets, I believe he has them specially made for the job. You're not his magnet supplier are you? They do look and sound amazingly faithful to an old pickup.

I'm am 100% sure that there is no magnet manufacturer making magnets with the methods used in the USA before the 70's. I'm also sure that none of the major manufactures are sure about what changed. OTP may get custom made magnets but many pickup makers, myself included, get custom magnets but this is more down to mixtures, sand casting, and size rather than detailed production methods. That's why everybody is chasing a vintage dragon that simply cant be caught. Some guys come close in looks, some come close in tone, and some makers manage to come close with both looks and tone but nobody ever gets it 100% right. Trouble is Gibson never did it right 2 times either because "right" is subjective and they never made the same PAF twice.

[BOBBO]

Originally Posted by rockmonkey

I have had OTP's pickups in my workshop and I've had shed pickups in my workshop. Neither were for anything other than my own personal enlightenment and both were as good as each other as far as vintage look and vintage correctness.

Vintage tone is a ball of wax I don't want to get into because no 2 vintage pickups sounded the same. Neither sounded like any vintage pickups I've had but both were close but no 2 vintage pickups I've ever had sounded the same either so its not fair to comment there.



I'm am 100% sure that there is no magnet manufacturer making magnets with the methods used in the USA before the 70's. I'm also sure that none of the major manufactures are sure about what changed. OTP may get custom made magnets but many pickup makers, myself included, get custom magnets. It doesn't mean they were made the same way that they were in vintage times because that information has been lost. That's why everybody is chasing a vintage dragon that simply cant be caught. Some guys come close in looks, some come close in tone, and some makers manage to come close with both looks and tone but nobody ever gets it 100% right. Trouble is Gibson never did it right 2 times either because "right" is subjective and they never made the same PAF twice.

Just to clear up a few mistakes ... First of all there is quite a difference between the vintage accuracy of OTP's versus Shed's !!! Even Spence will tell you his pickups are not as vintage accurate as the OTP's !!! Second , OTPG has his magnets made to exact 50's Gibson specs !!!!!!!!!!!!! I won't go into the details , But NOBODY else out there does what OTPG does as far as replicating all his pickup parts to 50's spec !!! Every part is custom made for OTPG and it has cost him a small fortune for all the tooling's to make these parts !!! Which is one of the reasons for the cost ... As for dragon chasing ... I think OTPG has not only captured the dragon but slayed him too Not to take anything away from SHED pickups !!! I think Spence's stuff rocks !!!

[rockmonkey]

For what it's worth, I just saw the pickups, not mounting hardware. Also keep in mind that although spence is stubborn and a bit sour he is still quite modest about what he makes himself.

I'm not saying one of these companies is any better than the other. What I am saying is that I've had both companies pickups in my workshop side by side along with real 50's PAFs and none of them sounded the same... not even the real PAF's sounded like each other! In terms of vintage looks and correctness both of the pickups I had in my shop were is good as each other. Shed and OTP had the same size and shape of poles in their pickups which is more than I can say for the real paf's so if anything they pay too much attention to detail. At least OTP and Spence managed to remember all the parts and get them put in the right places which is more than gibson ever did! Both of them make what I feel is a superior product to real vintage PAF's and I'd take their pickups over the original any day but again, that's a preferance thing.

As far as magnets go, the technology has been lost. When manufacturers were making magnets and they found ways to make them more stable or do the same thing cheaper they made changes to production and they didn't keep records of what was different. You can clone the chemical composition of a magnet but that doesn't mean they will sound exactly the same. I don't know what OTP has done to his magnets but I do know that the American 50's magnet production doesn't exist anymore and I know that real vintage magnets don't sound the same and modern remakes with the exact chemical compositions of real 50's magnets. I know this because I've spent thousands of pounds getting magnets analyzed and remade.

[jason_mazzy]

i would love a sound byte

[Liam]

Originally Posted by rockmonkey

I have had OTP's pickups in my workshop and I've had shed pickups in my workshop. Neither were for anything other than my own personal enlightenment and both were as good as each other as far as vintage look and vintage correctness.

I'm sure Nugget would take as much issue with that statement as I do. Whilst both are obviously great pickups, one goes a bit further than the other with vintage correctness.

Vintage tone is a ball of wax I don't want to get into because no 2 vintage pickups sounded the same. Neither sounded like any vintage pickups I've had but both were close and no 2 vintage pickups I've ever had sounded the same either so its not fair to comment there.

Fair comment, but in fairness to the OTP Guy, all he has said to me is that he's tried to make his pickups sound like his favourite PAFs (he's got quite a few to choose between). They work for me, and sound like some vintage pickups I have tried.

I'm am 100% sure that there is no magnet manufacturer making magnets with the methods used in the USA before the 70's. I'm also sure that none of the major manufactures are sure about what changed.

No-one knows what changed? That seems weird to me. I'm an engineer, and metallurgy (even of magnetic alloys) isn't really the black art it was back in the middle ages. Most production techniques can be replicated. Are you sure it couldn't have been done?

OTPG is clearly a case of someone going the extra mile (or 3) to replicate something better than has been achieved before, with incredible attention to detail. But if you had Shed and OTP in front of you, and thought they had the same vintage correctness...I'm not sure you'd understand...

Liam

[rockmonkey]

Or perhaps I understand better than most people which is why I saw what I did. What people think is vintage correct is usually just the stuff that is easily visible. Have you ever looked at carbon content of the metal parts? what about grain direction of those parts? were they hot rolled or cold rolled? Punched and drilled? Chopped and pressed? Chopped with a saw or a sheer? What size holes did they have? Were the holes for the mounting screws the same size as the others or smaller? How much silicone in those metal parts? were the holes in the keeper bars centered? Experience has told me that very few people look as closely at the metal as they do the tool marks on the bottom of the plastic and that is a small part of why people seem to be confused about what makes a pickup vintage correct. The bigger problem is that vintage correct is a much wider spectrum than most people realize. Tool marks on plastic parts were consistent but most other things changed quite a bit so you can have 2 different things that are both vintage correct.

My point with all of this is that vintage correct isn't always what people think. I am not saying that Shed pickups are as good as OTP's and I'm not saying they are not as good. I'm just saying the ones I had on my workbench were just as correct and the relic job was just as good too. I don't even do PAF replicas so I have everything to lose and nothing to gain by pointing it out so I really should have kept my mouth shut.


The problem with production techniques is that they were never watched that closely to begin with. Every once in a while something would change a little because of cost or effectiveness and eventually the new techniques would spread to other magnet producers. It's kinda like how in the 80's gibson didn't know how to make a 50's style PAF so they had to pay a team of researchers to look at old products and try and figure out the magic. Things that don't seem important at the time are easy to lose forever. Many many many people have paid out the ass for vintage replica magnets and I can promise you that there is more to it than simply matching chemical composition. I'm not an expert on magnet manufacturing but I have consulted a lot of them and keep getting told it can't be done no matter how much money I'm willing to through at it.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by rockmonkey

Or perhaps I understand better than most people which is why I saw what I did. What people think is vintage correct is usually just the stuff that is easily visible. Have you ever looked at carbon content of the metal parts? what about grain direction of those parts? were they hot rolled or cold rolled? Punched and drilled? Chopped and pressed? Chopped with a saw or a sheer? What size holes did they have? Were the holes for the mounting screws the same size as the others or smaller? How much silicone in those metal parts?

Unfortunately my eyesight doesn't extend to being able to see carbon or silicon content (silicone content is probably pretty small, I think you probably meant silicon), but I've got a pretty good eye for tooling and manufacture, grain direction, etc. in sheet, rolled and billet components, etc. I still think the OTP pickups are ridiculously accurate looking compared to anything else on the market.

Many many many people have paid out the ass for vintage replica magnets and I can promise you that there is more to it than simply matching chemical composition. I'm not an expert on magnet manufacturing but I have consulted a lot of them and keep getting told it can't be done no matter how much money I'm willing to through at it.

That's again a fair comment. However, I know that at least one pickup manufacturer has gone as far as getting advanced analysis of the structure as well as the composition of metal parts in vintage pickups. The idea being that the heat treatment methods can be replicated, as well as using a reasonably accurate material and manufacturing method. The one I spoke to about it had been working on getting the right heat treatment for keeper bars. He was pretty dubious about whether it affected tone, but did it anyway for the sake of "vintage correctness".

I think you might be underestimating the research that has gone into some of these products. It extends a long way beyond correct bobbin shape, markings and material.

Liam

[rockmonkey]

Originally Posted by Liam

Unfortunately my eyesight doesn't extend to being able to see carbon or silicon content (silicone content is probably pretty small, I think you probably meant silicon)

yeah, that was a typo. Silicon. And that is my point, you can only see so much. There is more to being vintage correct cut than what the average person can see.

but I've got a pretty good eye for tooling and manufacture, grain direction, etc. in sheet, rolled and billet components, etc. I still think the OTP pickups are ridiculously accurate looking compared to anything else on the market.

So what grain direction is vintage correct? Were the keeper bars punched or drilled? Cut with a bandsaw? Ground on a mill? simply punched? Was the steel cold rolled or hot rolled?

That's again a fair comment. However, I know that at least one pickup manufacturer has gone as far as getting advanced analysis of the structure as well as the composition of metal parts in vintage pickups.

Well now you know at least two!

The idea being that the heat treatment methods can be replicated, as well as using a reasonably accurate material and manufacturing method.

My experience is that it's easily true with most of the metal parts but magnets are different which is why I've made such an issue about the magnets. Nailing the vintage magnet has proven to be very difficult indeed and I've never had one that sounded like the vintage ones. I've taken magnets from dead PAFS and put them in new pickups and done side by side sound test with magnets from many of the most expensive pickup makers in the world. I wasn't testing whole pickups, I was swapping magnets in the same pickups and they all sound good but they don't sound the same as the vintage magnets.

The one I spoke to about it had been working on getting the right heat treatment for keeper bars. He was pretty dubious about whether it affected tone, but did it anyway for the sake of "vintage correctness".

I was doubtful of whether small things with metal effected tone until I did the testing for myself. Now I heat treat, cut, and punch parts as well as picking alloys according to the tone I want because there is a difference. The really crazy thing is that if you get something like steel from china that has exactly the same specs as steel from Germany or Britain it'll sound different. American steel sounds different than british steel too even when the alloy is exactly the same. Who would have thought that "the same thing" could be so different until you get in and mess around with it but that all takes time and money.

I think you might be underestimating the research that has gone into some of these products. It extends a long way beyond correct bobbin shape, markings and material.

That is my point!!! I don't underestimate this stuff people in general do and thats why some makers are known to be "more vintage correct" than others when in reality that isn't always true. There are some things that are "vintage correct" that are not accepted as correct because they were the exception and there are other things that people just don't have the ability to look for. Many pickup makers study this stuff and spend thousands upon thousands studying and running tests! If the answers have been discovered more than 1 person would know about them by now because people and employees talk. Some things done in the privacy of a 1 man shop can be kept a secret but I don't know of a single pickup maker that sits in their back yard sand casting their own alnico. That is outsourced and when things are outsourced info is leaked! If there was a magic answer we would know about it and magnet manufacturers would be marketing the stuff to us.

Anyway, this doesn't seem to be going anywhere and if people are using the point I'm trying to make as the reason I must be wrong then I'm obviously not getting anywhere so I'm just gonna shut up.

[Nigel Tufnel's tech]

Interesting discussion lads, Most people who buy a pickup wouldn't get past the look of the cover befor deciding wich was the most accurate replica, so its good to know another winder has had a looked at them and they both cut the mustard.