Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... - Page 2

woolenmammoth · 06-13-2012, 04:41 PM

heh Liam, I am not offended, its the internet, I dont know you, who cares really. All good. Its pretty silly to get bent by what some anonymous dude says, much more important to focus on the information that is trying to be communicated.

The primary issue with all this stuff is how severely the components on the outside of your guitar are loading down the components on the inside of your guitar. I can sit here and give you a recipe, you can follow it exactly, and then plug in any old cable into a mass manufactured amplifier from a big box chain and then get on here and report you hear no difference, which you likely will not, and say that Im out to lunch.

You've got to closely analyze everything that is happening between the guitar pickup and the grid on the first preamp tube. Every single connection. You can do things to your guitar that should yield amazing results but if you have really hi cap behind the panel of your amp odds are that is going to mask the work you have put into the very fine tuning you have done to the inside of your guitar.

Now when you strip your guitars down and build your own amps, you are completely in control of everything and can really dig into this stuff and when you do, you can make real global changes that will make people's heads spin around and its not some snake oil horseshit, you can measure each step of your chain to confirm that the changes you do hear are not psycho acoustic.

If you are running through a pedal board, all this stuff is probably moot anyway because you are introducing a load that should be dismissed for this discussion.

The self capacitance of a humbucker is what it is, as is the cap of a preamp tube, etc. the cap of a cable, however is a variable that can be used to tune your system. There are myriads of type of wire to chose from and it all has an additive effect on the total cap between the given cap of the humbucker and the given cap of the tube. If you take hi and low cap cable, or in the most extreme example, low cap and quad cable, plug it in directly between your guitar and amp and dont hear a change, something in your amp is loading you down. If you slowly go through and tweak all that out you can very easily get your amp to a point where all of a sudden that guitar cable that you were convinced made no difference at all now makes a very noticable difference. The first place to thoroughly tweak is everything before the grid as everything that is in series before that grid is hanging on your pickup (basically).

The higher impedance your circuit, the more cap effects you and there are few things higher in audio than whats happening between a pickup and a preamp tube. Yes, you can tweak things like wire everywhere but the place you are gonna hear it first is there.

Whatever you do, if you are truly interested in discovery, is not to dismiss the global load on your guitar. There is very slim chance that you are gonna hear 20pf or 100pf of change if your system does not have the resolution to reproduce that, you really have to manage the load before you are going to hear results in some cases. And this is why many people will try this stuff, plug it into their new ish marshall, mesa boogie or whatever production line amp and then dismiss it as mythology. There is no way an assembly line amp whose components are "good enough" are going to not mask what we are discussing here. No way. This is often not put into proper perspective and of course is the root for many of the conclusions that people make on this topic. I did all this work and cant hear any of the changes I read about on the internet when I plugged it into my circuit board amp, so therefore it must all be nonsense. You are also likely to not see an improvement in acceleration putting 85 or 98 octane in a ford escort. The parallel is identical. You've gotta have an engine that is high performance enough to benefit from the higher combustion in the first place. If you know anything about aviation, the struggle to overcome air compression prior to jet design is also very similar parallel.

Anyhow, rambling on. This is the platform from which my conclusions are drawn, a signal path from humbucker to speaker where I have made every single solder connection and with that a decision about what element to use in there and I would be very very very surprised to debate this type of thing with anyone that comes from that background. This is admittedly very tweaker shit without any question but just because you havent heard it on your setup just suggests that your given setup may not be fast enough to reveal this stuff. Also worth mentioning is that this is most assuredly not in any way, any kind of golden ears nonsense, this is all stuff that any average person could discern sitting in front of the right setup.

there might not always been room or budget for improvement, but there is always time to listen, so long as we are all doing that, we are on the right path.

geetarfreek82 · 06-13-2012, 06:11 PM

This is my point exactly. As I said before, I play plugged straight into a hand wired '59 Bassman type amp, and use the best quality components on and in my guitars I can get... With this set up I can hear exactly what differences a change in any of those components makes.

SKATTERBRANE · 06-13-2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geetarfreek82

This is my point exactly. As I said before, I play plugged straight into a hand wired '59 Bassman type amp, and use the best quality components on and in my guitars I can get... With this set up I can hear exactly what differences a change in any of those components makes.

Yep, never used a pedal in my life. I have a Fender Twin Tweed 57 RI, all point to point wiring. I DO use my volume and tone pots A LOT!

yeti · 06-13-2012, 10:30 PM

Hi, Woolenmammoth
Your post is very interesting but here's a list of passages that make me wonder how seriously I should take your comments. No offense intended but these statements sound too vague. But I do like the way you present your viewpoint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolenmammoth

..... and when you do, you can make real global changes that will make people's heads spin around and its not some snake oil horseshit, you can measure each step of your chain to confirm that the changes you do hear are not psycho acoustic.....

....There is very slim chance that you are gonna hear 20pf or 100pf of change if your system does not have the resolution to reproduce that,...

.....There is no way an assembly line amp whose components are "good enough" are going to not mask what we are discussing here. No way.

....This is admittedly very tweaker shit without any question but just because you havent heard it on your setup just suggests that your given setup may not be fast enough to reveal this stuff. .

The other question I have is very simple. Where is all of this supposed to lead us? Why would I believe that once every component has been tweaked and tuned to perfection I will hear better sound. One thing to remember is that the best sounding amps of all time were constantly tweaked for the opposite of what made them so enduring, none of the classic amps were designed for the tones we all fell in love with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geetarfreek82

This is my point exactly. As I said before, I play plugged straight into a hand wired '59 Bassman type amp, and use the best quality components on and in my guitars I can get... With this set up I can hear exactly what differences a change in any of those components makes.

I usually plug my old Tele straight into my original 5F6-A and with this setup I can hear exactly how insignificant many of these changes are. I can also hear that my $59.00 SD Telecaster neck PU blends perfectly with the Fralin rewound 50's flatpole bridge PU.

woolenmammoth · 06-13-2012, 11:22 PM

Yeti-

Saving a really long discourse on how to manufacture amplifiers, which I am not so interested or willing to get into here, you have to accept the fact that there are some different levels to construction out there. You can buy a trailer, you can buy prefab construction which in 2012 can be made into a truly spectacular house and then you can go the full craftsman route. Three different price points, three different results and the core of the price is based solely on materials and labor costs. Building an amp is the same. If you are building an amp that has to cost under $2k retail, which most guitar amps do, and you sell it at a place that is the home depot of music equipment, in that $2k you have to have around %35 for the store, then %35 for the distributor, then the manufacturer gets his cut and that is on top of the manufacturing costs. Those amps, in order to be profitable, have to be made out of "good enough" so the customer gets an amp that is exactly that. If they were wired with wire that cost $4 per foot, they'd be impossibly expensive. If they used caps that cost more than a few cents they'd be impossibly expensive. They are designed on paper and spec'd by accountants and they HAVE to be if a company with a large distribution network is to be profitable. This is the way it works. All those amps are great. They are good enough for gigging, they are good enough for recording. And if you custom build an amp to a "sky is the limit" spec you would not believe what is possible in comparison. The room for improvement in most of them is larger than you could imagine possible.

The point here is that if you make some minor change to a global system that was built to a price point, the odds of it having a truly gut shaking impact arent so good. When you have a no compromise, price is no object construction, then you can tweak little stuff and go "whoah". And Im not talking about a $40,000 amp either. If you have a builder who knows whats up and sells direct, bam, theres a potential of %70 (!!!) that can be redirected towards the components in the amp. Big companies rely on volume and in order to make volume profitable your standard for the most part has to be good enough.

This is the long way around to suggest that when you plug x cable that is y cap into "good enough" you might not hear a difference. And when you plug x cable with y cap into independent builders amp who takes an uncompromising approach now you start to hear things.

Formula one races can be won on the difference between 1 horse power and the right driver. Thats what we are talking here.

Silly for me to be talking about this shit on a guitar message board but I had the day off today and well, here we are. This admittedly is not gonna resonate with many people here, I doubt anyone is buying or building custom amps.

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you had the caps changed on your 5F6-A? For some reason, among "vintage" people, there is this thought that removing caps is bad. Removing caps totally sucks, but the fact of life, FACT, is that caps have a shelf life and in every way exactly like motor oil, reach a point where they get in the way of performance instead of provide performance. There is zero way around this. Caps either leak or turn into resistors, depending upon what they are made of. If you arent hearing x y or z changes, it could be that the cap that is supposed to be carrying your audio from one part of the circuit to the next is actually preventing your audio from going from one part of the circuit to the next (but oh no, dont change it, its original and vintage, you'll go to hell) and that is what I mean by a way that an amp may not be "fast" enough to reveal changes. Im speaking more towards a design platform, but in the case of an old amp, thats the ultimate case. I have plenty of vintage amps, many with old caps that sound totally cool, and totally cool because they are old and WAY out of spec, but that 45 year old amp in 2012 does not sound remotely like it did when it left the factory. Food for thought.

yeti · 06-13-2012, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolenmammoth

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you had the caps changed on your 5F6-A? For some reason, among "vintage" people, there is this thought that removing caps is bad. Removing caps totally sucks, but the fact of life, FACT, is that caps have a shelf life and in every way exactly like motor oil, reach a point where they get in the way of performance instead of provide performance. There is zero way around this. Caps either leak or turn into resistors, depending upon what they are made of. If you arent hearing x y or z changes, it could be that the cap that is supposed to be carrying your audio from one part of the circuit to the next is actually preventing your audio from going from one part of the circuit to the next (but oh no, dont change it, its original and vintage, you'll go to hell) and that is what I mean by a way that an amp may not be "fast" enough to reveal changes. Im speaking more towards a design platform, but in the case of an old amp, thats the ultimate case. I have plenty of vintage amps, many with old caps that sound totally cool, and totally cool because they are old and WAY out of spec, but that 45 year old amp in 2012 does not sound remotely like it did when it left the factory. Food for thought.

Thanks for the response. I don't think in terms of vintage and originality, it's an old amp that was about the same price as a reissue when I bought it.. My amp has had most components replaced when necessary (except trannys and speakers) and I'm sure it's not the greatest specimen out there. I do believe these were made as cheaply as possible back in '59. My '60 Concert is 100% stock and still going strong, no idea how that's possible but so it goes.
Thanks for the response.

woolenmammoth · 06-14-2012, 12:16 AM

Just keep in perspective that 1959 cheaply as possible is not in any way comparable to cheaply as possible 2012. If you found a stash of allen bradley resistors in 2012, for instance, you'd pay dollars for them. where as in 1959, thats what was cheaply as possible because its the only thing that was available in fullerton cheap. Lots of examples like that. Yes, Fender built things for profit, but that does not necessarily mean the products they built were cheap. That does not so much parallel very well for 2012, unfortunately for us buying new gear. You build something as cheaply as possible today and it redefines how poorly something can be built...

Back in the stone age, there really werent lots of options, and because of the military contracts out there at the time, there were some very high quality parts available cheap because of the quantity that the factories were making, allen and bradley resistors is one such example. An amp from '59 is cool, it could be argued, because it couldnt have been made shittier. That wouldnt come for years later.

How insane is the vibe circuit in the 1960 concert? Is yours a 12 or 12-A? Thats the greatest vibe ever, way cooler than a univibe, its amazing there arent many recordings of it out there. The brown pro's had that same oscillator circuit, totally cool fender shit that isnt even celebrated the way it should be

geetarfreek82 · 06-14-2012, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKATTERBRANE

Yep, never used a pedal in my life. I have a Fender Twin Tweed 57 RI, all point to point wiring. I DO use my volume and tone pots A LOT!

That's funny, my amp is a Bassman LTD RI that I had gutted and rewired using NOS components. I used to use pedals and such, but one day years ago I just plugged straight into my amp and I couldn't believe how much clearer it was! LOL I do occasionally use an overdrive I built, but that's it. My favorite guitar player is Steve Morse, and I learned from him how to use my volume and tone controls... That man plays Hendrix songs without a wah, just his pinkie and tone knob!

Liam · 06-14-2012, 04:45 PM

I use masses of pedals at times. But I just got a GigRig Pro 14... True bypass through high end gold contact relays. Definitely cheers things up a lot for the straight into the amp sounds. However with some (decent) pedal buffers you can't really hear the difference between a single pedal bypass and straight into the amp.

Your long replies are really nice and all that woolenmammoth, but I'm still finding it really hard to take your electronics theory all that seriously.

Quote:

Whatever you do, if you are truly interested in discovery, is not to dismiss the global load on your guitar. There is very slim chance that you are gonna hear 20pf or 100pf of change if your system does not have the resolution to reproduce that

The capacitance of the pickup itself is in the region of 100 nF. The tone cap is probably about 0.022 uF. The chances of hearing a difference of 20pF in the circuit from guitar to preamp tube have got to be pretty damn close to zero haven't they? Can I hear the difference between a 15 ft lead and a 20 ft lead straight into the amp? I must say, I really can't.

Liam

peach64 · 06-14-2012, 05:51 PM

In reference to the debate about guitar/speaker cables, I for one never thought you could or would hear a difference. I was wronge in that regaurd too. I have noticed a difference, between Mogami, George L's, and the best of the best was Bill Lawrence guitar cables with Beldin wire, which you can not buy any more. Guys who have these cables know what I'm talking about.

Ken Fischer blew my mind when it came to amps, transformers, caps, resistors, etc...you get the point. Trainwreck Amps are not legendary for nothing.In the beginning an Amp was built entirely around an individuals style, blues, metal, rock, then guitar's pickups were taken into consideration, Ken swore by `57 PAFS, then the last piece was hand tuning of the tubes.

BTW, my OTPG PAFS sound incredible through my Trainwreck Rocket. Hey Joe B. you should've bought that 80 watt Express, oh well. You made some kid really happy, which is a good thing. Looking forward to hearing what these SD VL 61 PAF HD's are all about?

yeti · 06-14-2012, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolenmammoth

How insane is the vibe circuit in the 1960 concert? Is yours a 12 or 12-A? Thats the greatest vibe ever, way cooler than a univibe, its amazing there arent many recordings of it out there. The brown pro's had that same oscillator circuit, totally cool fender shit that isnt even celebrated the way it should be

Mine is a 5G12 with the volume in the regular position, Jensen P10 Q's and the old tweed era brown grill cloth, a fine amp but the trem isn't nearly as cool as everyone makes it out to be, at least to my ears. It works and sounds exactly as you'd expect but I prefer the regular LDR style trem of the BF/SF amps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolenmammoth

An amp from '59 is cool, it could be argued, because it couldnt have been made shittier. That wouldnt come for years later.

Regarding your statements about "old cheap" vs "new cheap" I'm not convinced. When did it become possible to build amps with shitty components? My '74 WEM Dominator MK 3 was build as cheap as possible, it cost half as much as the comparable Vox or Marshall. Yes it has Mustard caps and Mullard tubes but the built isn't nearly as good as more pricey amps from that era. Certainly a mass produced amp. The speaker was a no-name POS alnico and they cut corners alot. But now that it has a decent Greenback clone it sounds fantastic which tells me that it's the circuitry and a few key components (tubes, trannys and speaker) as well as cabinet size and construction that define the tone, not the kind of solder or wire used or the brand of pot. And cable differences (yes, I can hear the difference between a 15' and a 20 ' cable) are relatively minor and can easily be tweaked at the amp unless you're using total junkcables. This is just my general observation. Others will differ There are so many great dirtcheap amps out there today, take the fender Pro junior or Blues junior. I know that any ampbuilder scoffs at the tiny trannys in there and "upgrade kits" are readily available but most players are perfectly happy with those because they sound great right out of the box. I happen to agree with them. A Crate VC 50 with a bad monkey sounds as good if not better than many Boutique Marshall clones.
We live in a golden age of instrument making, thanks to CNC machines you can buy stage quality guitars for $300.00, toss in another $400.00 for an amp and put that up against someone with a $10,000 guitar and a $5,000 amp and nobody in the audience will know the difference because a live gig situation doesn't give you the "resolution" to hear the difference. I have seen this many times and to make things more weird let's not forget that that perfectly buttery, creamy harmonically rich yet smooth livingroom distortion won't cut through the mix nearly as well as that slightly raspy icepicky brittle upper midrange of that Peavey amp.
.

Paul · 06-15-2012, 03:01 AM

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
.
.
.
.
Kiss kiss kiss

Hahaha

peach64 · 06-21-2012, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeti

Mine is a 5G12 with the volume in the regular position, Jensen P10 Q's and the old tweed era brown grill cloth, a fine amp but the trem isn't nearly as cool as everyone makes it out to be, at least to my ears. It works and sounds exactly as you'd expect but I prefer the regular LDR style trem of the BF/SF amps.

Regarding your statements about "old cheap" vs "new cheap" I'm not convinced. When did it become possible to build amps with shitty components? My '74 WEM Dominator MK 3 was build as cheap as possible, it cost half as much as the comparable Vox or Marshall. Yes it has Mustard caps and Mullard tubes but the built isn't nearly as good as more pricey amps from that era. Certainly a mass produced amp. The speaker was a no-name POS alnico and they cut corners alot. But now that it has a decent Greenback clone it sounds fantastic which tells me that it's the circuitry and a few key components (tubes, trannys and speaker) as well as cabinet size and construction that define the tone, not the kind of solder or wire used or the brand of pot. And cable differences (yes, I can hear the difference between a 15' and a 20 ' cable) are relatively minor and can easily be tweaked at the amp unless you're using total junkcables. This is just my general observation. Others will differ There are so many great dirtcheap amps out there today, take the fender Pro junior or Blues junior. I know that any ampbuilder scoffs at the tiny trannys in there and "upgrade kits" are readily available but most players are perfectly happy with those because they sound great right out of the box. I happen to agree with them. A Crate VC 50 with a bad monkey sounds as good if not better than many Boutique Marshall clones.
We live in a golden age of instrument making, thanks to CNC machines you can buy stage quality guitars for $300.00, toss in another $400.00 for an amp and put that up against someone with a $10,000 guitar and a $5,000 amp and nobody in the audience will know the difference because a live gig situation doesn't give you the "resolution" to hear the difference. I have seen this many times and to make things more weird let's not forget that that perfectly buttery, creamy harmonically rich yet smooth livingroom distortion won't cut through the mix nearly as well as that slightly raspy icepicky brittle upper midrange of that Peavey amp.
.

Yeah, and Frank Zappa said it best..," most people wouldn't know good music, even if it bit them in the ass " Same goes with great amps too.

SKATTERBRANE · 06-27-2012, 09:44 AM

1959 Gibson PAF Humbucker pickup Set of 2 DOUBLE WHITES Real Vintage 59 Les Paul | eBay

cooljuk · 06-27-2012, 09:57 AM

Nice photos there. I love how you can really see the "stepping" on the screw heads. I have so much to improve on. So much to learn.

SKATTERBRANE · 07-05-2012, 09:58 AM

Here is your chance to own an expensive 57 Classic!

VINTAGE PAF HUMBUCKER by Gibson RARE PAF Patent Applied For guitar 335 les paul | eBay

SKATTERBRANE · 07-05-2012, 10:05 AM

Even if it were real, he is asking the price for a pair. On his lising, in fine print, he has this"

NOTE TO JJ
YES, No dont take me wrong.
3500. Is a real offer.
Punch it in the MAKE OFFER window
so I know your serious plse. That IS $2K OFF
he will maybe do it?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what I sent to the seller:

"Note to JJ;
Hey JJ, if you make an offer of $3500, it will be about $3450 too much, because the pickup pictured is a 57 Classic and can be no older than 1990."

SKATTERBRANE · 07-05-2012, 10:18 AM

Oh and I submitted an offer of $45.

jamman · 07-05-2012, 11:33 AM

Thanks Rod , Another great find

. I just sent this message to him.

" Are you sure this is a real Original Gibson PAF ? What year is it ?Why does nothing about the pickup look like an Original PAF ? and the price is for 1 pickup ? "

It never stops amazing me .

SKATTERBRANE · 07-05-2012, 11:47 AM

The sticker for Burstbuckers and 57 Classics have changed at least twice. This one is from the 90s.

northernguitarguy · 07-05-2012, 01:16 PM

It's funny, but the two 'best' guitarists that I know personally could give a crap about the pickups in their guitars as long as they work.

BillB1960 · 07-05-2012, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woolenmammoth

Just keep in perspective that 1959 cheaply as possible is not in any way comparable to cheaply as possible 2012. If you found a stash of allen bradley resistors in 2012, for instance, you'd pay dollars for them. where as in 1959, thats what was cheaply as possible because its the only thing that was available in fullerton cheap. Lots of examples like that. Yes, Fender built things for profit, but that does not necessarily mean the products they built were cheap. That does not so much parallel very well for 2012, unfortunately for us buying new gear. You build something as cheaply as possible today and it redefines how poorly something can be built...

Back in the stone age, there really werent lots of options, and because of the military contracts out there at the time, there were some very high quality parts available cheap because of the quantity that the factories were making, allen and bradley resistors is one such example. An amp from '59 is cool, it could be argued, because it couldnt have been made shittier. That wouldnt come for years later.

How insane is the vibe circuit in the 1960 concert? Is yours a 12 or 12-A? Thats the greatest vibe ever, way cooler than a univibe, its amazing there arent many recordings of it out there. The brown pro's had that same oscillator circuit, totally cool fender shit that isnt even celebrated the way it should be

Have I got a thread for you:

"Vintage" voltage , AC frequency & tone

AngryHatter · 07-05-2012, 02:19 PM

jamman · 07-06-2012, 09:46 AM

I got the reply this morning :

" oops sorry gibson did all that

they are sneaky!

GRETSCH WOULD NEVER DO THIS. NOT A GIBSON FAN,

IM SELLING HIS 70S GOLD TOP OR i was

- bevete "

SKATTERBRANE · 07-06-2012, 09:49 AM

Yes, I got this:

oops sorry gibson did all that

ANOTHER GUY JUST POSTED ONE TOO.
HE EXPLAINS WHAT GIBSON DID.

last time I sell stuff for a buddy - even if he is dying.

what jerks everyone was jeeeez

- bevete

I GUESS he was referring to this listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-Picku...item43b168e305

SKATTERBRANE · 07-06-2012, 09:50 AM

Apparently Gibson was being deceptive when they put PAF stickers on 57 Classics starting wwaaaaayyyy back in 1990.

LtKojak · 07-06-2012, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKATTERBRANE

Apparently Gibson was being deceptive when they put PAF stickers on 57 Classics starting wwaaaaayyyy back in 1990.

Yeah... sneaky bastards!

northernguitarguy · 07-06-2012, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKATTERBRANE

Apparently Gibson was being deceptive when they put PAF stickers on 57 Classics starting wwaaaaayyyy back in 1990.

Yeah, I bought one a couple of years back and thought so too. Or more accurately (IMO) it was cheesy. Next, pup makers will be putting out pups with rust on the poles for that 'vintage' look

cooljuk · 07-06-2012, 02:04 PM

"Hi GEEZ WHAT A DAY, I was selling items for a pal whose ill, I had to tell him bad news dude, these are REISSUE. Sorry you had to see the ugly post. I stay away from helping friends but I should know better, THANK GOD no one bought it Bev "

SirJackdeFuzz · 07-07-2012, 08:07 AM

I love to "personalize" all of my guitars, and 90% of the time it starts with after market pick ups.

i have units from :

Seymour Duncan
TV Jones
Bareknuckle
Stevens Design

. . . and still, i am look at more (right now, LACE and a local forum member's products)

06-13-2012, 04:41 PM	#31 (permalink)
woolenmammoth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 351 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... heh Liam, I am not offended, its the internet, I dont know you, who cares really. All good. Its pretty silly to get bent by what some anonymous dude says, much more important to focus on the information that is trying to be communicated. The primary issue with all this stuff is how severely the components on the outside of your guitar are loading down the components on the inside of your guitar. I can sit here and give you a recipe, you can follow it exactly, and then plug in any old cable into a mass manufactured amplifier from a big box chain and then get on here and report you hear no difference, which you likely will not, and say that Im out to lunch. You've got to closely analyze everything that is happening between the guitar pickup and the grid on the first preamp tube. Every single connection. You can do things to your guitar that should yield amazing results but if you have really hi cap behind the panel of your amp odds are that is going to mask the work you have put into the very fine tuning you have done to the inside of your guitar. Now when you strip your guitars down and build your own amps, you are completely in control of everything and can really dig into this stuff and when you do, you can make real global changes that will make people's heads spin around and its not some snake oil horseshit, you can measure each step of your chain to confirm that the changes you do hear are not psycho acoustic. If you are running through a pedal board, all this stuff is probably moot anyway because you are introducing a load that should be dismissed for this discussion. The self capacitance of a humbucker is what it is, as is the cap of a preamp tube, etc. the cap of a cable, however is a variable that can be used to tune your system. There are myriads of type of wire to chose from and it all has an additive effect on the total cap between the given cap of the humbucker and the given cap of the tube. If you take hi and low cap cable, or in the most extreme example, low cap and quad cable, plug it in directly between your guitar and amp and dont hear a change, something in your amp is loading you down. If you slowly go through and tweak all that out you can very easily get your amp to a point where all of a sudden that guitar cable that you were convinced made no difference at all now makes a very noticable difference. The first place to thoroughly tweak is everything before the grid as everything that is in series before that grid is hanging on your pickup (basically). The higher impedance your circuit, the more cap effects you and there are few things higher in audio than whats happening between a pickup and a preamp tube. Yes, you can tweak things like wire everywhere but the place you are gonna hear it first is there. Whatever you do, if you are truly interested in discovery, is not to dismiss the global load on your guitar. There is very slim chance that you are gonna hear 20pf or 100pf of change if your system does not have the resolution to reproduce that, you really have to manage the load before you are going to hear results in some cases. And this is why many people will try this stuff, plug it into their new ish marshall, mesa boogie or whatever production line amp and then dismiss it as mythology. There is no way an assembly line amp whose components are "good enough" are going to not mask what we are discussing here. No way. This is often not put into proper perspective and of course is the root for many of the conclusions that people make on this topic. I did all this work and cant hear any of the changes I read about on the internet when I plugged it into my circuit board amp, so therefore it must all be nonsense. You are also likely to not see an improvement in acceleration putting 85 or 98 octane in a ford escort. The parallel is identical. You've gotta have an engine that is high performance enough to benefit from the higher combustion in the first place. If you know anything about aviation, the struggle to overcome air compression prior to jet design is also very similar parallel. Anyhow, rambling on. This is the platform from which my conclusions are drawn, a signal path from humbucker to speaker where I have made every single solder connection and with that a decision about what element to use in there and I would be very very very surprised to debate this type of thing with anyone that comes from that background. This is admittedly very tweaker shit without any question but just because you havent heard it on your setup just suggests that your given setup may not be fast enough to reveal this stuff. Also worth mentioning is that this is most assuredly not in any way, any kind of golden ears nonsense, this is all stuff that any average person could discern sitting in front of the right setup. there might not always been room or budget for improvement, but there is always time to listen, so long as we are all doing that, we are on the right path.

06-13-2012, 06:11 PM	#32 (permalink)
geetarfreek82 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Moosic, Pa Posts: 343 Thanks: 11 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... This is my point exactly. As I said before, I play plugged straight into a hand wired '59 Bassman type amp, and use the best quality components on and in my guitars I can get... With this set up I can hear exactly what differences a change in any of those components makes. SKATTERBRANE likes this.

06-13-2012, 11:22 PM	#35 (permalink)
woolenmammoth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 351 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... Yeti- Saving a really long discourse on how to manufacture amplifiers, which I am not so interested or willing to get into here, you have to accept the fact that there are some different levels to construction out there. You can buy a trailer, you can buy prefab construction which in 2012 can be made into a truly spectacular house and then you can go the full craftsman route. Three different price points, three different results and the core of the price is based solely on materials and labor costs. Building an amp is the same. If you are building an amp that has to cost under $2k retail, which most guitar amps do, and you sell it at a place that is the home depot of music equipment, in that $2k you have to have around %35 for the store, then %35 for the distributor, then the manufacturer gets his cut and that is on top of the manufacturing costs. Those amps, in order to be profitable, have to be made out of "good enough" so the customer gets an amp that is exactly that. If they were wired with wire that cost $4 per foot, they'd be impossibly expensive. If they used caps that cost more than a few cents they'd be impossibly expensive. They are designed on paper and spec'd by accountants and they HAVE to be if a company with a large distribution network is to be profitable. This is the way it works. All those amps are great. They are good enough for gigging, they are good enough for recording. And if you custom build an amp to a "sky is the limit" spec you would not believe what is possible in comparison. The room for improvement in most of them is larger than you could imagine possible. The point here is that if you make some minor change to a global system that was built to a price point, the odds of it having a truly gut shaking impact arent so good. When you have a no compromise, price is no object construction, then you can tweak little stuff and go "whoah". And Im not talking about a $40,000 amp either. If you have a builder who knows whats up and sells direct, bam, theres a potential of %70 (!!!) that can be redirected towards the components in the amp. Big companies rely on volume and in order to make volume profitable your standard for the most part has to be good enough. This is the long way around to suggest that when you plug x cable that is y cap into "good enough" you might not hear a difference. And when you plug x cable with y cap into independent builders amp who takes an uncompromising approach now you start to hear things. Formula one races can be won on the difference between 1 horse power and the right driver. Thats what we are talking here. Silly for me to be talking about this shit on a guitar message board but I had the day off today and well, here we are. This admittedly is not gonna resonate with many people here, I doubt anyone is buying or building custom amps. Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you had the caps changed on your 5F6-A? For some reason, among "vintage" people, there is this thought that removing caps is bad. Removing caps totally sucks, but the fact of life, FACT, is that caps have a shelf life and in every way exactly like motor oil, reach a point where they get in the way of performance instead of provide performance. There is zero way around this. Caps either leak or turn into resistors, depending upon what they are made of. If you arent hearing x y or z changes, it could be that the cap that is supposed to be carrying your audio from one part of the circuit to the next is actually preventing your audio from going from one part of the circuit to the next (but oh no, dont change it, its original and vintage, you'll go to hell) and that is what I mean by a way that an amp may not be "fast" enough to reveal changes. Im speaking more towards a design platform, but in the case of an old amp, thats the ultimate case. I have plenty of vintage amps, many with old caps that sound totally cool, and totally cool because they are old and WAY out of spec, but that 45 year old amp in 2012 does not sound remotely like it did when it left the factory. Food for thought. yeti and geetarfreek82 like this.

06-14-2012, 12:16 AM	#37 (permalink)
woolenmammoth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 351 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... Just keep in perspective that 1959 cheaply as possible is not in any way comparable to cheaply as possible 2012. If you found a stash of allen bradley resistors in 2012, for instance, you'd pay dollars for them. where as in 1959, thats what was cheaply as possible because its the only thing that was available in fullerton cheap. Lots of examples like that. Yes, Fender built things for profit, but that does not necessarily mean the products they built were cheap. That does not so much parallel very well for 2012, unfortunately for us buying new gear. You build something as cheaply as possible today and it redefines how poorly something can be built... Back in the stone age, there really werent lots of options, and because of the military contracts out there at the time, there were some very high quality parts available cheap because of the quantity that the factories were making, allen and bradley resistors is one such example. An amp from '59 is cool, it could be argued, because it couldnt have been made shittier. That wouldnt come for years later. How insane is the vibe circuit in the 1960 concert? Is yours a 12 or 12-A? Thats the greatest vibe ever, way cooler than a univibe, its amazing there arent many recordings of it out there. The brown pro's had that same oscillator circuit, totally cool fender shit that isnt even celebrated the way it should be

06-14-2012, 05:51 PM	#40 (permalink)
peach64 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Jersey Posts: 834 Thanks: 0 Thanked 14 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... In reference to the debate about guitar/speaker cables, I for one never thought you could or would hear a difference. I was wronge in that regaurd too. I have noticed a difference, between Mogami, George L's, and the best of the best was Bill Lawrence guitar cables with Beldin wire, which you can not buy any more. Guys who have these cables know what I'm talking about. Ken Fischer blew my mind when it came to amps, transformers, caps, resistors, etc...you get the point. Trainwreck Amps are not legendary for nothing.In the beginning an Amp was built entirely around an individuals style, blues, metal, rock, then guitar's pickups were taken into consideration, Ken swore by `57 PAFS, then the last piece was hand tuning of the tubes. BTW, my OTPG PAFS sound incredible through my Trainwreck Rocket. Hey Joe B. you should've bought that 80 watt Express, oh well. You made some kid really happy, which is a good thing. Looking forward to hearing what these SD VL 61 PAF HD's are all about?

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06-15-2012, 03:01 AM	#42 (permalink)
Paul MLP Cub Reporter Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 2,390 Thanks: 11 Thanked 46 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! . . . . Kiss kiss kiss Hahaha __________________ R.I.P Phillip Burkinshaw 15/8/1945 - ?/8/2009 64 years old and still a rocker. I'm not dead

06-27-2012, 09:44 AM	#44 (permalink)
SKATTERBRANE Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,441 Thanks: 603 Thanked 549 Times in 185 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... 1959 Gibson PAF Humbucker pickup Set of 2 DOUBLE WHITES Real Vintage 59 Les Paul \| eBay

06-27-2012, 09:57 AM	#45 (permalink)
cooljuk Bartlett RetroPAF Vendor Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Frederick, MD Posts: 8,968 Thanks: 555 Thanked 297 Times in 77 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... Nice photos there. I love how you can really see the "stepping" on the screw heads. I have so much to improve on. So much to learn. __________________ Video Demos and More Below www.re-wind.net ReWind Electric on Facebook My name is James and I build PAFs.

07-05-2012, 09:58 AM	#46 (permalink)
SKATTERBRANE Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,441 Thanks: 603 Thanked 549 Times in 185 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... Here is your chance to own an expensive 57 Classic! VINTAGE PAF HUMBUCKER by Gibson RARE PAF Patent Applied For guitar 335 les paul \| eBay jamman likes this.

07-05-2012, 10:05 AM	#47 (permalink)
SKATTERBRANE Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,441 Thanks: 603 Thanked 549 Times in 185 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... Even if it were real, he is asking the price for a pair. On his lising, in fine print, he has this" NOTE TO JJ YES, No dont take me wrong. 3500. Is a real offer. Punch it in the MAKE OFFER window so I know your serious plse. That IS $2K OFF he will maybe do it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is what I sent to the seller: "Note to JJ; Hey JJ, if you make an offer of $3500, it will be about $3450 too much, because the pickup pictured is a 57 Classic and can be no older than 1990."

07-05-2012, 10:18 AM	#48 (permalink)
SKATTERBRANE Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,441 Thanks: 603 Thanked 549 Times in 185 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... Oh and I submitted an offer of $45. cooljuk likes this.

07-05-2012, 11:33 AM	#49 (permalink)
jamman Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: So. Fla. Posts: 3,299 Thanks: 141 Thanked 148 Times in 24 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... Thanks Rod , Another great find . I just sent this message to him. " Are you sure this is a real Original Gibson PAF ? What year is it ?Why does nothing about the pickup look like an Original PAF ? and the price is for 1 pickup ? " It never stops amazing me .

07-05-2012, 11:47 AM	#50 (permalink)
SKATTERBRANE Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,441 Thanks: 603 Thanked 549 Times in 185 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... The sticker for Burstbuckers and 57 Classics have changed at least twice. This one is from the 90s.

07-05-2012, 01:16 PM	#51 (permalink)
northernguitarguy Bartlett Retrospec Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: North of Toronto Posts: 7,832 Thanks: 175 Thanked 260 Times in 86 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... It's funny, but the two 'best' guitarists that I know personally could give a crap about the pickups in their guitars as long as they work. __________________ 2012 Gibson Les Paul Junior Special P90 * 2010 Epiphone '57 Les Paul Junior Reissue * 2008 Yamaha RBX374 * 1993 Yamaha FG 411 VS * 1989 Yamaha Pacifica w/TexMex * 1980 Kasuga 'Northern' Custom * 1979 Yamaha SG700 Amplifier: TraynorYCV50 Blue https://soundcloud.com/northernguitarguy/funky-mama-rhythm-section Free your mind, and your ass will follow-George Clinton

07-05-2012, 02:19 PM	#53 (permalink)
AngryHatter Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 13,021 Thanks: 35 Thanked 106 Times in 43 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your....

07-06-2012, 09:46 AM	#54 (permalink)
jamman Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: So. Fla. Posts: 3,299 Thanks: 141 Thanked 148 Times in 24 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... I got the reply this morning : " oops sorry gibson did all that they are sneaky! GRETSCH WOULD NEVER DO THIS. NOT A GIBSON FAN, IM SELLING HIS 70S GOLD TOP OR i was - bevete "

07-06-2012, 09:49 AM	#55 (permalink)
SKATTERBRANE Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,441 Thanks: 603 Thanked 549 Times in 185 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... Yes, I got this: oops sorry gibson did all that ANOTHER GUY JUST POSTED ONE TOO. HE EXPLAINS WHAT GIBSON DID. last time I sell stuff for a buddy - even if he is dying. what jerks everyone was jeeeez - bevete I GUESS he was referring to this listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-Picku...item43b168e305

07-06-2012, 09:50 AM	#56 (permalink)
SKATTERBRANE Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 21,441 Thanks: 603 Thanked 549 Times in 185 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... Apparently Gibson was being deceptive when they put PAF stickers on 57 Classics starting wwaaaaayyyy back in 1990. northernguitarguy likes this.

07-06-2012, 02:04 PM	#59 (permalink)
cooljuk Bartlett RetroPAF Vendor Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Frederick, MD Posts: 8,968 Thanks: 555 Thanked 297 Times in 77 Posts	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... "Hi GEEZ WHAT A DAY, I was selling items for a pal whose ill, I had to tell him bad news dude, these are REISSUE. Sorry you had to see the ugly post. I stay away from helping friends but I should know better, THANK GOD no one bought it Bev " __________________ Video Demos and More Below www.re-wind.net ReWind Electric on Facebook My name is James and I build PAFs.

07-07-2012, 08:07 AM	#60 (permalink)
SirJackdeFuzz Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 614 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Big $$$ PAFS? What about your.... I love to "personalize" all of my guitars, and 90% of the time it starts with after market pick ups. i have units from : Seymour Duncan TV Jones Bareknuckle Stevens Design . . . and still, i am look at more (right now, LACE and a local forum member's products)

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