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Unread 06-10-2011, 07:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
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pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Hello! Thisq thread is going to be more of a complaint than anything else. Maybe someone can be of assistance here. I have a 1986 Les Paul Custom in "Clownburst" (as they call it). Anyway, I love the action on this thing, very smooth and heavy like an anvil. Now onto the problem...my tone.

My tone is shit (in my opinion). Maybe it's the amp im using, maybe it's a cheap cable maybe... hell iono what it is. When I think of Les Paul Customs, I am reminded of that beautiful warm fuzzy feeling you get when someone plays it on a clean channel. My amp is a Marshall MG 250 DFX (solid state of course) so I'm thinking thats why I'm not getting that fuzzy feeling, and my pickups have the (stamped) 2737842 number on them, which I've heard are not even the PAT. NO. for the pickups, something about a trapazise peice or something?

I also own a Marshall Class 5 but I sent it back home before I got the custom (I'm stationed in NC so I don't have alot of room) so maybe I that's what Im missing.

So my whole main point of this thread... what's up with these pickups? They are capped with faded gold (worn out is more like it) and to me, they just don't sound "old" enough. The only tone I like out of the custom is the middle position with volumes turned back and tone down to about 7 or 6 on both knobs. My main complaint is the bridge pickup. It doesnt have that Gibson bite that I expect.....but then again, maybe it's my amp. I mean it's a Marshall sure, but it's not tube..

*sigh* I rant, WAY too much. Sorry if this is confusing, I just dont know how to word what I'm thinking.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 08:12 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

I think the patent number is for the tune-o-matic bridge...

I also think an '86 Custom would have come with Tim Shaw pickups... which have that number stamped on them.
They also had ink stamps on them... well, most of them did, but not all of them.

The best way to tell if they're shaws is to take the cover off, take a picture and show them to us.
Shaws had rough cast magnets... they'd look bumpy.


I suppose it's possible that you have P490's, a generic precursor to the 490R and 490T.


Either way, you would probably notice a good diference if you just installed new pots, 500k's will bring out more bite than what's in there. What's in there may be 300k's or a combination of 300k's and 500k's.

If after you do that it's still not enough for you, then I suppose you could look at swapping pickups..
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Unread 06-10-2011, 08:39 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Okay I got beet up about this a while back for my ignorance. The serial is for the Trapeze from 57 I think. They should be Shaws is there the stamp on the bottom or could they be a dirty finger. What is the DC of them. That as well as the picture would be a great place to start.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 08:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Alright, I get off work in about an hour and I will go home and take some pics for you guys just bear with me a little bit. yeah, my SG (2006 standard) is the only guitar I have with real bite to them and I heard some1 mention the ones with 2737842 stamped on them (no ink, just a stamp, unless the ink has worn all the way off) were dirty fingers but I just hate the mud I get from them. I mean it's not epiphone mud but one thing I noticed for sure... Lets say I play a G chord...... If i just pick the botton 2 strings (bottom to me is e and B) THEN I pick the top E (big E), it pretty much kills my bright tone out. I mean almost drowns it. It's pretty damn annoying to me because I can't get a full chord sound. But as stated, i will get home and snap some pics for you guys a.s.a.p. What all do you want pics of? The back of the pup, the pots? the wiring? Just let me know I'll check it when I get home and get right on it. Thanks for the help guys. Damn good forum.

By the way, I thought tim shaws were the ones with the goofy circuit board on them? Im not a pup expert by any means.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 08:58 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

[QUOTE=captcoolaid;2756844]Okay I got beet up about this a while back for my ignorance. The serial is for the Trapeze from 57 I think. QUOTE]

According to the Patent Document, which was granted to Lester Polfuss and Gibson, This is the patent number for a "Combined Bridge and tailpiece for stringed instruments".

Which I guess would make it this highly unsuccessful bridge/tailpiece for the 1952 Les Paul:



Although the patent drawing shows the strings top-wrapped...


So, you were closer than me... it's the trapeze bridge.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:18 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Yeah I got called out on that a few months ago. but in all fairness i was being a dick sort of. But yes a female winder here on the forum steered to my own gospel page that I should have read a bit better. Doh
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

The ones with the pcb on them were Bill Lawrence designed not Shaw. Shaw stepped in around July or August of 1980 and was there I think until 88 or so. Rod Kinkade over at Skatterbrane knows a bit more about this than I do, But I believe that the Shaws were in full swing by late 1980
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:24 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

From what I've heard, aside from the original PAF's, the Shaw is the best humbucker to ever come in a Les Paul.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:25 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Not sure about the pickups but I'd place most of the blame on your amp. Most people avoid Marshall MG's like the plague. Sure it's fine for practice and to save space but that's about it. I think once you plugged into your Class 5 you'd feel a lot better about your LP and your tone.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:29 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrackTheSkye View Post
Not sure about the pickups but I'd place most of the blame on your amp. Most people avoid Marshall MG's like the plague. Sure it's fine for practice and to save space but that's about it. I think once you plugged into your Class 5 you'd feel a lot better about your LP and your tone.
Agreed
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:44 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Thanks guys, I thinking thats the problem too. I always bought MG cause of the price but I really didnt think it would sacrifice that much tone and variation. Plus the 250 dfx with x2 12" cel speakers for 650.... vs a 5 watt 1 10" cel speaker class 5 for 500..... yeah I really thought the extra 150 was worth it...... Why... oh why did I send my class 5 home . WELL money isn't an issue for me, so in all honestly, what do would you guys suggest for a good tube amp. No $2000 + b.s. but a good little small tube...something by vox? I dont want to buy another class 5 since that is redundant but I would like a tube amp that has channel select. That was the one thing the class 5 lacked. By the time you turn the volume up to get distortion. It was so god damn loud that my ears would pop.



regarding the SHAW.... how does it stack up to 57' classics? I hear alot of good things about them
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:48 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

The Vox AC30 or, and I will get killed for this, but the peavy VK100 is real nice as well.

Before I get blasted, all the clips done for W B when I was there was done on a VK100 and you all loved the tone.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:57 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

okay most of the ac30's im seeing are 1000 for the single speaker and 1500 for the double... but why is this one Buy Vox AC30VR Valve Reactor 2x12 Guitar Combo Amp | Hybrid Combo Amps | Musician's Friend only 550ish? something im missing?
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:57 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Vox Ac4TV8

It has a 1/10th watt setting, you can get great tube overdrive with that at a low volume.

I have one, but I'm not too fond of the 8" speaker, so I plug it into a 1x12 cab with a Vintage 30.


I don't think Vox makes the AC4TV8 anymore though, they have a smaller version with a 6 1/2" speaker (AC4TV Mini)... and it still has the 1/10th watt setting.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 09:58 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by usmcLP View Post
what's up with these pickups? They are capped with faded gold (worn out is more like it) and to me, they just don't sound "old" enough. The only tone I like out of the custom is the middle position with volumes turned back and tone down to about 7 or 6 on both knobs. My main complaint is the bridge pickup. It doesnt have that Gibson bite that I expect...
I can relate to this... in the early 70s with my '68 Gibson Les Paul Custom I couldn't do any soaring lead because the bridge p'up sounded so anemic it seemed it had terminal cancer. After crashing and burning a couple of very important shows with my band, I couldn't take'em out fast enough!

The p'ups were T-Tops.

As the market today are hyping'em, every time I mention how hard they sucked, most of the time I get called names for telling it like it is.

Without pictures of you p'ups I can't make any educated guess, but if they're what I think they're, you should take'em out and selling'em in the used market and with that money buy REAL GOOD p'ups.

My two pence worth of nothing.

HTH,


PS: even though your amp is NOT one of the best of the bunch, you should at least be able to get decent tones out of it... so if your p'ups are what they called "Patent Number", chances are they're the most probable culprit of your lack of tone.

Ok, let the torching begin now...
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Unread 06-10-2011, 10:04 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Well like I said, when I get home I will be able to get some pics for you guys... I know what t tops are supposted to look like but mine are capped.... do you um... want me to umm...take the covers off? I don't want to take them off if I cant get them back on. I'm not the best at removing caps without putting a little bend in them. Then again open coils on a les paul look good so its a win win.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 10:14 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

No torching at all Lolli pop King. I am with you on the T-top thing. They are either nice or anemic pending the player. But you should start with the amp.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 10:25 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

I'd try the pots first.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 10:31 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

will there be a stamp on the pots letting me know if they are 300 or 500?


regardless, im still going to get those pics out to people of everything pups pots stamps ect ect but I really appriceate all of the input from everyone. I wish I knew (totally lost my train of thought...) oh yeah! I wish I could be at home now but... you godda love the military..

"hey get cleaned up we're releasing at 10:00!!"

*2 hours later*

"why are we still here?...." ...

ooh-mother-fukin-rah
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Unread 06-10-2011, 10:49 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Yeah, they should be marked on the back of the pots. I had an 85' Custom that had Shaws in it. Dirty Fingers will have double screw poles and no covers, usually. BTW, I used to buy alot of guitars around the Jacksonville and Fayetteville area. Used to be good huntin ground!
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Unread 06-10-2011, 10:54 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

lol nwobhm

yeah i got the custom from a gunny here but the actual stores are just too overprices imo. Then again it's a Marine town and I'm a Marine...so yeah fuk me! lol.

I just want this issue solved. Even if it is just the pots or just the pups themselves. Sorry for the delays guys I'll get these pics on here asap promise.

btw nowbhm I saw your signarue, first thing that came to mind was:

Rusty: " Yes sir hail satan my dark lord n' master" as he's shredding lol
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Unread 06-10-2011, 11:07 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

I recall, one day on a hunting trip, a young marine, whereing a sign around his neck protesting outside some furniture store back in the 80's in Jacksonville! I can just imagine the screws they turned on him! BTW, If you end up getting new pots, you will need long shaft pots.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 12:48 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Okay, I'm going to assume thats what the metal plate is for? Well here they are! FInally got home.













okay, incase it's hard to read cause my droidx blows at photos.....

The neck pickup says PAT NO. 2737842

The Bridge PUP says "Gibson USA" in a logo looking way,

The pots say: 71-079 on the top, and bottom half says: R1378615

SO I have no idea what all this means, have at it guys!
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Unread 06-10-2011, 12:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

R1378615

137 means that it's a CTS
86 is the year
15 is the week of the year
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Unread 06-10-2011, 01:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Bridge pickup isn't original. They started stamping Gibson USA sometime in the early 90's. not sure of the exact year but, patent numbers were being used up into the early 90's. I'd try to get a multimeter and get a dcr of the bridge pickup to get some idea what it might be.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 01:00 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

According to this:
http://www.vintageguitars.org.uk/gibsonPots.php

"71-079" is a 100k pot (audio taper)

so, you've probably got 500k volume pots, and 100k tone pots...

check the volume pot, if it has "71137" it's 500k (audio taper)

could be a 300k, in that case it may have "70034"
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Unread 06-10-2011, 01:02 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Never mind, thanks for the info on the pot, 100k! Bridge I'm guessing from the wood spacer, would either be a 490t or a 498t, possibly?
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Unread 06-10-2011, 01:06 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

with all this said, sadly i do not have a multimeter and i dont feel like driving back to base just to get one cause traffic sucks.... you guys have given me the info....now what do I need to do to get this thing to sound like a nice custom... cause frankly, i feel like I only paid 1500 for a reason


one of you guys mentioned 500k pots... where should i get them? stewmac?

the pups... at least the bridge pup its the only one im concerned about... should i trade it for a 57' classic? or is that too warm of a pickup? any other info im all ears (well eyes but you know what i mean)
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Unread 06-10-2011, 01:13 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indyclone View Post
According to this:
Gibson Guitar Potentiometer (Pot) Database

"71-079" is a 100k pot (audio taper)

so, you've probably got 500k volume pots, and 100k tone pots...

check the volume pot, if it has "71137" it's 500k (audio taper)

could be a 300k, in that case it may have "70034"
Wow, I'd definately get some decent pots all around! Try RSguitarworks they specialize in pots over 500k. They say that they don't measure them but, there regular pots that they use for tone, usually measure well over 500k and there a little cheaper than the RS super pots.
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Unread 06-10-2011, 01:14 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: pat no 2737842....here we go again!

If you have your 100K or 300K tone pots turned down to 6 or 7 already, 500K tone pots are NOT going to help you, because you are going to want to turn them down to 4 or 5!! (it seems you prefer the tone of about 50-80K on your tone pots with your current amp) But I agree, your bridge pickup is not original, no matter what one it is, I do not know of a "Gibson USA" stamped pickup that I would want in my guitar. 490R, 490T. 498T, 496R, 500T etc.

That guitar originally came with Shaws, and your neck pickup may or may not be original. But a COMPLETE reworking of all electronics is in order, as well as a good tube amp, if you want TONE!

While your at it, get rid of that ground plate, and the color coded wires coming from the switch and go full vintage braided with buss wire grounding all around, in any case you will need LONG shaft pots.
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