BEST ?? PAF clone ????

[Morawk]

There are many ways to get the same results. What's important to note is when builders are making PAF replicas whether they are replicating the PAF or replicating the PAF tone. The latter is more important to me. I just want the best PAF tone. I don't care if it's wound on the original Leesona machine winder or if it's automatically wound using original templates or whatever. I'm not interested in a physical replica of a PAF, just a perfect replica of the PAF tone. Hence, my winder of choice is WB. With his NOS vintage wire, experience and passion in handwinding, he gets me the perfect replica of the PAF tone and that's all that matters. It doesn't have to be made exactly the same way the old ones were. It just has to sound it.

[JLH]

hey Southbay, I like your clip, what pups and what amp and what guitar is used in this sound clip

[Southbay Ampworks]

Originally Posted by JLH

hey Southbay, I like your clip, what pups and what amp and what guitar is used in this sound clip

That is a Crossroads Set, ES345 into a '65 Blackface Pro Reverb with JBL D120s and no pedals....guitar player is Ed A from the LPF forum.

[JLH]

SMOKIN TONE, That is IMO PAF tone, nice and thanks, nice phrasing Ed, !!!

One of several demos by this young artist.

YouTube - Skatterbrane pickups - Dirty 2

[Dave Stephens]

Sgt. Pepper I sent you a PM, check yer' forum mesages.
Anyway, I'm getting into this thread late here. Yeah there's no one PAF tone, and hey, you gotta admit that sometimes Page's PAF tone sucked, his neck pickup could be awful muddy at times, maybe it was on drugs.

I've just announced my own take on the PAF thing, at least my latest and most satisfying effort so far, you can see the video on YouTube now:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=SDPickups
Its in two parts, had to split it 'cause you can't post anything over ten minutes.

I put all my research lately into the individual parts in the pickup and took my best guess on the steel alloys and then made my own parts and had pole screws made accordingly. This really paid off for me, now I can get the tones I've been lusting after for five years, those StewMac parts just won't put out that kind of tones, I think they must be made of old beer cans or something :-) One of the previous posters kind of said it all, its not that hard to get Jimmy Page tones from a variety of different pickup maker's products, you have to judge for yourself. I've seen some pickup makers, mostly the Ebay winders, cheat to get fake tones you really won't get unless you use alot of effects like a POD to dial in tones, well to me that is cheating. All my samples are done just plugged into small amps cranked up and no pedals, its the only way to actually hear the guitar and pickups without the "talent" boxes :-)

PAFs used so many different kinds of alnico, a bunch of different types and sizes of magnet wire, some different wind scatters, and I'm betting even the steel componenets changed over time as well, so alot of different tones come from supposedly one pickup design. Ever wonder why the DCR varies so much over the years? Well Seth Lover said they just "filled the bobbin" that surely points out the wire thicknesses were radically varying at different times, you can't get 9K of over spec 42 wire on a humbucker so that day they probably had some 42 that was over normal specs. But to me, this is whats fascinating about PAFs is that they are a puzzle to be figured out, the end result being you find what produced the good tones and focus on that and design your own product. what I'm making now is the sum of all my knowledge to this point and I"m sure mine don't sound like anybody else's, and thats the cool thing to have a handful of really knowledgeable small businesses making a wide array of great sounding products. Back in the late 60s and 70s there pretty much were little or no choices except the junk Gibson was making, which I tried back then and was sorry I wasted my money.....

[BCRGreg]

Ironically, efficiency killed tone with Gibson.

[rockinlespaul]

Originally Posted by kink56

One of several demos by this young artist.

YouTube - Skatterbrane pickups - Dirty 2

I'm diggin' his tone!

[Dave Stephens]

I don't think it was efficiency, I'm not sure what it was. They went to the short magnet to speed up assembly, its hard to cram those wire in there with the long magnets, so I guess that was an efficiency thing, but why did they change the bobbin height? They changed the magnet wire because they were cheap, not efficient. Some other things changed for the same reason. Gibson hasn't changed much since then, they are still cheap.....

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

I don't think it was efficiency, I'm not sure what it was. They went to the short magnet to speed up assembly, its hard to cram those wire in there with the long magnets, so I guess that was an efficiency thing, but why did they change the bobbin height? They changed the magnet wire because they were cheap, not efficient. Some other things changed for the same reason. Gibson hasn't changed much since then, they are still cheap.....

You might be right but I have a different theory to that.
Gibson was using mostly A4 magnets whilst they had wanted to use A5. So what happens when they get A5? They find it's a bit more powerful. Anyone looking at saving money would point out that the magnet could be shortened and in theory have the same effect as the longer A4, and so you could get more magnets for your money from your run at the magnet factory.


Also I don't believe they changed the wire because it was cheaper. They just changed it because the wire company called one day and said " Hey guys we've just developed a wire that's solderable."

[Dave Stephens]

Spence, I'm not so sure about the magnet wire change idea, I have the Querfurth coil winding book 1958 edition and it does list solderable poly wire. Of course I don't know how new it was at the time, but maybe you're right they wanted something quickly solderable. I do remember reading that Seth Lover said plain enamel sounds better than the poly stuff, so I think he was against the change. I don't know enough about history of Gibson I wonder what happened in 1960 that all these changes came about. On the other hand in '63 they were using the black plain enamel, where the heck did that one come from???

[TattooedCarrot]

Lots of good info in here.

Just my thoughts on PAF. I understand the inconsistencies and thus the myths of what PAF was and is. To me, PAF describes more of a genre voicing based on many of the artists and recordings mentioned already as examples rather than a specific duplicate of what is perceived to be the PAF. With that in mind, I think the different makers, through varied materials, construction, and style, add a little flavor variation to the PAF voiced genre. While most of these are in the same ballpark, they do differ slightly and some are more appealing to an individual's ears, fingers, and rig.

For example I like WCR's stuff, I like Duncan Custom (the hot one, which is ceramic) Duncan Seth Lovers, and Pearly Gates, I also like Dimarzio's new virtual vintage PAF's and Gibson's BB's are pretty nice too. I do not care for Duncan's 59, Gibson 57 Classics, or Dimarzio's regular PAF - go figure.

It's like chocolate. Different kinds, some light, some dark, some in between. And while it's all essentially the same thing, there are flavor differences and people will differ in which they like best.

Also, some cost more. Godiva's gonna run you a lot more than the hollow Easter bunny at Walmart, so it's not really a fairy tale being sold; sometimes there are better one's out there. Take a few bites and see what you like.

[Dave Stephens]

while it is true there was alot of variance in Gibson's PAFs, there WERE constants enough that if you vary too far away from those you won't get an authentic in the ballpark tone. A good example of this is the "PAFs" made by guys you never heard of on Ebay who are basically winding up some StewMac kits. The parts in those things are so far off the mark, calling them a PAF is kind of a joke really.

If you watch the video I made, those parts are pretty darn close to the real deal, yet with a slight variant in the wind and sllght variant in the magnet wire you get a true PAF tone but as you said a different "flavor." I really strive to make mine as authentic as possible and I know Spence does too (Nugget). Despite the fact there isn't really one classic PAF identifiable tone, there IS a trademark tonal thing going on so much that when I listen to the radio and some old tune comes on, if it was recorded with a PAF bearing LP I can hear it right away. A couple months ago I was listening to the jazz station and Herbie Hancock tune came on I'd never heard before and some guy on a guitar let it rip, it grabbed me right away and I knew what I was hearing. Turns out it was Duane Allman, those pickups are one of the better sets I've heard. I know some winders who claim PAF heritage for some of their sets but are using 43 guage wire, there were probably some wound with skinny side 42 but 43 was NEVER spec'd for those pickups, so calling those a PAF is out of whack to me. Anyway, I'll soon have a new video with a studio musician playing both these sets, my own amp setup is probably too basic for most players to relate to, to me a guitar and an amp is all I want to hear, no master volume, no pedals, just crank the amp and go :-)

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

Spence, I'm not so sure about the magnet wire change idea, I have the Querfurth coil winding book 1958 edition and it does list solderable poly wire. Of course I don't know how new it was at the time, but maybe you're right they wanted something quickly solderable. I do remember reading that Seth Lover said plain enamel sounds better than the poly stuff, so I think he was against the change. I don't know enough about history of Gibson I wonder what happened in 1960 that all these changes came about. On the other hand in '63 they were using the black plain enamel, where the heck did that one come from???

Well they did use black PE in 63 but that's when they changed over. Trouble is that some pickups you come into contact with may have already been rewound.

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by Shawn Fate

My Custom came with '57 Classics.
The burstbuckers are a little bit hotter,but lack a little something the Classics offer.
Can't really put my finger on it.

I think when ya blend em in ther middle, you get a better tone, I have a Classic57 in the neck of one of my Lesters, with a BB 3 in the bridge . I like the combo for now

[Dave Stephens]

The Classics are production models, in other words they are made in the thousands on automated machines and are made to make a profit, so they tend to be more shrill than the Burstbuckers which are a more upscale version of the classics. I know the classics were designed by Tom Holmes but have heard they didn't follow all his advice. When you have shrill pickups the middle positions usually sounds really sweet.

Nugget, actually I've not seen a set of '63 patents in person, I read that in the Brosnac book and then ran across some guy's website where he rewound a set of '63s and found black wire in them. What year did they start using the poly wire?

[lp59aholicDon]

[QUOTE=Dave Stephens;18436]The Classics are production models, in other words they are made in the thousands on automated machines and are made to make a profit, so they tend to be more shrill than the Burstbuckers which are a more upscale version of the classics. I know the classics were designed by Tom Holmes but have heard they didn't follow all his advice. When you have shrill pickups the middle positions usually sounds really sweet.

Mr Stephens, I am fully aware the Classics and Burstbuckers are production model pickups , at the time of their installation I wasnt budget ready for a pair of $250 dollar a set pickups , I had a Les Paul that had very gain sensitive pickups I couldnt use/ gig all of my amps with, without a problem occuring, after talking to a few tech's and doing some research I found this combo of pickups to be the temporary tone and gain solution to my problem. They may not be a permanant solution, they were the best option for the tone and problem fix I had at the time. I already have another possible set or sets of pickups in mind for this guitar, and maybe my other two Lesters. When that time comes I am sure my hard earned bucks will be again well spent and I doubt I will be disapointed with my choice

[Dave Stephens]

That sounds good. I'm not actually saying 57 Classics are BAD pickups, they are just what they are, they are alot better than the junk Gibson produced in the past. When I was a kid I bought a LP Deluxe with the minis in them, I hated those pickups and was excited to save up $150 for a set of real Gibson humbuckers, what a disappointment they were, they were muddy and dull sounding; the Classics are so much better than those things. Burstbuckers are production pickups too but they have a good reputation. Boutique pickups aren't for everyone either, someone beginning guitar wouldn't appreciate the differences, and cheap gear will degrade anything one uses. The truth is that the best pickup on earth is the one YOU love and makes you want to play for hours without stopping. The funny part of all of this is that pickups that now fetch high prices in their day weren't considered that great. When DiMarzio came out with the super distortion pickups guys were literally throwing their PAFs in the garbage can, or throwing away the magnets in them and installing "hot rod" ceramic magnets. So it goes.....

[lp59aholicDon]

Yeah I remember those days well Dave, I had Mini Buckers in my first Les, when that got stolen I aquired a 71 "Re issue" that had P 90s in it, Loved those pickups and that sound . Finding guys to rewind back then wasnt easy either , I think Ace Frehley mighta tossed a few PAF's I remember the DiMarzio surge, then the Seymour surge, I gotta agree most of Gibsons pickups now sound far better than any Humbuckings made in the 70s for the most part one thing for sure, these days there is no shortage of good or bad humbuckers ! Boutique or otherwise
hopefully next time I have to make a pickup change, I can let my ears decided and not worry as much bout the dent in my wallet or bank account

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

That sounds good. I'm not actually saying 57 Classics are BAD pickups, they are just what they are, they are alot better than the junk Gibson produced in the past. When I was a kid I bought a LP Deluxe with the minis in them, I hated those pickups and was excited to save up $150 for a set of real Gibson humbuckers, what a disappointment they were, they were muddy and dull sounding; the Classics are so much better than those things. Burstbuckers are production pickups too but they have a good reputation. Boutique pickups aren't for everyone either, someone beginning guitar wouldn't appreciate the differences, and cheap gear will degrade anything one uses. The truth is that the best pickup on earth is the one YOU love and makes you want to play for hours without stopping. The funny part of all of this is that pickups that now fetch high prices in their day weren't considered that great. When DiMarzio came out with the super distortion pickups guys were literally throwing their PAFs in the garbage can, or throwing away the magnets in them and installing "hot rod" ceramic magnets. So it goes.....

[5F6-A]

I've really enjoyed the tone of these Bareknuckles ( Mules I presume ) :

YouTube - Redfish "Tribute To Rock" Play Radar Love

[Shawn Fate]

What do you guys know about WCR pickups ?
I have been hearing great things about them.
I need to get some pickups that are great for old school metal....but need gold covers to keep the guitar looking stock.
Seen some great reviews on the Iron Man.
I do not want pick ups that feedback like crazy or are too hot.

WCR Guitar Pickups

I will be the first to admit, I know nothing of pickups as far as output..etc

Edit: I am a moron, I just realized WCR is a member here.
Maybe they will chime in.

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by Shawn Fate

What do you guys know about WCR pickups ?
I have been hearing great things about them.
I need to get some pickups that are great for old school metal....but need gold covers to keep the guitar looking stock.
Seen some great reviews on the Iron Man.
I do not want pick ups that feedback like crazy or are too hot.

WCR Guitar Pickups

Jim, the Wag Wagner is right here on this forum, I have heard alot of his samples and his pickups are on my shopping list I am sure soon he will read this and hopefully you will get a reply

[tarddoggy]

Man,that sounds good!! whats that amp setup? amazing how clear that sound is! is that you playing 5f6-a??

[WCR]

Originally Posted by Shawn Fate

What do you guys know about WCR pickups ?
I have been hearing great things about them.
I need to get some pickups that are great for old school metal....but need gold covers to keep the guitar looking stock.
Seen some great reviews on the Iron Man.
I do not want pick ups that feedback like crazy or are too hot.

WCR Guitar Pickups

I will be the first to admit, I know nothing of pickups as far as output..etc

Edit: I am a moron, I just realized WCR is a member here.
Maybe they will chime in.

you can't be anymore of a moron tha I am... Just e-mail or give me a call if ya want. Although most customers of mine are the blues and hard rockers, I do almost all the work for Jon Schaffer from Iced Eath, and a coupla HUGE namers I can't talk about yet in public...at least until the upcoming Heaven and Hell/Iced Earth European tour is over....
Jon's new CD has WCR all over the place on it. All the leads were a Godwood set in a McNaught Phoenix. Strange as it may seem, his favorites so far are the Godwoods and the BetSet...
The Official Iced Earth Website

[Shawn Fate]

Originally Posted by WCR

you can't be anymore of a moron tha I am... Just e-mail or give me a call if ya want. Although most customers of mine are the blues and hard rockers, I do almost all the work for Jon Schaffer from Iced Eath, and a coupla HUGE namers I can't talk about yet in public...at least until the upcoming Heaven and Hell/Iced Earth European tour is over....
Jon's new CD has WCR all over the place on it. All the leads were a Godwood set in a McNaught Phoenix. Strange as it may seem, his favorites so far are the Godwoods and the BetSet...
The Official Iced Earth Website

Interesting, as I am a Iced Earth and Black Sabbath fan .
Those are the old school metal tones I am looking for.

Wow, those godwood clips sound amazing.

[WCR]

Originally Posted by Shawn Fate

Interesting, as I am a Iced Earth and Black Sabbath fan .
Those are the old school metal tones I am looking for.

Wow, those godwood clips sound amazing.

Do you have IE's new CD yet ? I just got 4 of Jon's CDs in the mail yesterday, and plan to just sit down and listen to them chronologically. He is a great story teller with war themes in his stuff. Like the Civil War, the American Revolution, etc. he is a HUGE and very knowledgable military history buff, and is a fascinating person to just listen to him talk about that stuff.

[Shawn Fate]

I was going to pick it up yesterday on my way to get strap locks, but forgot to stop by best buy.

[5F6-A]

Originally Posted by tarddoggy

Man,that sounds good!! whats that amp setup? amazing how clear that sound is! is that you playing 5f6-a??

nope.. unfortunately sounds good though, eh?!

[WCR]

Originally Posted by Shawn Fate

I was going to pick it up yesterday on my way to get strap locks, but forgot to stop by best buy.

You'll really dig it. Jon has one of the most fantastic right hands in the business, and does the best "galloping" rythms I've ever heard. An arm of steel for sure. I told him that drummer really deserves a raise....

[BOBBO]

I think after much thought .. I'm going to pull the trigger on a set of Wolfe's DR V's !