BEST ?? PAF clone ????

I think EVERYTHING makes a difference. Including alloys....actually all materials, as does the windings. But once again, it is the RESULT that matters, no matter how you arrive at it. The Guitar makes the biggest difference!

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by SKATTERBRANE

I think EVERYTHING makes a difference. Including alloys....actually all materials, as does the windings. But once again, it is the RESULT that matters, no matter how you arrive at it. The Guitar makes the biggest difference!

That is the video I want to see the same Paf's in different degrees of guitars

[FLICKOFLASH]

why does all this yep yap seem so familiar

Tesla’s Coil “F.A.P” Pickup Development Group

[Dave Stephens]

No disrespect was ever intended, but the truth is if you just use the parts that are available out there, you're limited by that. the guys that sell those parts can't even tell you what metal is in them, and they are all different. There's enough range in that to experiment with, but not much.

Heck yeah mine chirp for days, there's two videos there, maybe chirp is the wrong word, sweet might be better. I never got as much of that until I used this metal. It doubles whats available. Its the type of tone you hear with a traditional tele in the middle position. I never really used to like that tone, but in these and the way Bloomfield used it kills...

Mushing out depends on the amp, my Victoria Regal II doesn't like PAFs turned up to ten, they start to sound like everything else, the real one or the copy I made, they react identically. My DR '73 isn't the best amp for them either, it sounds small and dark, its just the amp. I recently sent a set of transitional pickups to a customer who is a sound man, a professional, the keeper is made of that special metal but the slugs are 1018. Just having the keeper in that metal radically changes the pickup for the better. His comment is very interesting, to him he said the pickups let the AMP itself be heard. He's going to buy a Star set, and looking forward to what his ears say there. The Stars react very differently in different amps, more than the stock parts pickups do, the real PAF does exactly the same thing. I really have no experience with Marshalls other than the rare STudio 15 I have, so your experience there is interesting to note. But in the recent Tonequest where they tested ten real PAFs, he shares the same opinion as mine that PAFs sound best without alot of junk overlaid on them or distorted too much, and that they lose their character when done so. I recently saw a video on YouTube where a guy has a '58 LP I think it was and something like a Trainwreck amp, but he uses so much distortion the pickups sound like Duncans, nothing special at all. Even EVH's bridge pickup, he never really used much distortion, no pedals just his fantastic touch and a moderately pushed amp.

[NightWinder]

Wow, I've never seen so much disrespect in regards to ones comments (Dave Stevens) regarding replicating True Paf tones in a topic that is labled appropriately "best paf Clone" let alone the guy getting shot in the back in the same army? Wtf guys ??? I guess noone can state their results and hard work puplicly without s@!tty comments and negative vibes! Here are some scientific and proven terms which may help to clarify what others have not had the experience of learning and are nieve to facts:

Si (silicone)is to increase the resistivity and reduce eddy currents in AC applications. Si gives the best results in resistivity with the least harm and interference to other properties. Here are two: saturation(B) and core loss (related to H and construction details). permeability matters if you are not magnetizing to high field strengths. Fe (iron), any trace impurity will decrease the Bmax and perm. At low levels almost every type of impurity will have an effect (china material, impureitys in mixtures...unless garanteed and tested through vaporizing). Cold working and strain (bending or shaving) will harm the Magnetic properties also. For transfering the magnetic properties, the lower the carbon the better, so 1002 would usually be better than say 1018 (what 99% of makers use : ) for magnetic application. This is scientific and can be proved and seen in Eq curves...Bmax vs concentration curves. Impurities (Inferior steels not of tight tolerences, this is what makes us winders different and unique) in Fe in Bozorth silicon steel. It has a lower saturation flux density than plain low carbon steel. Silicon steel does have advantages if your electromagnet is going to operate and transfer magnetic properties...Tesla would have known this and used this to his advantage- Thats also proven, and he really should get credit because he really was the first one to invent the radio....Look it up

Perhaps befor being too judgemental and critisize one's quest to achieve true replication of vintage tones, you should first know the amount of information and dedication it takes to discover and research these things. Being judgemental in something you have no experience in is nieve. Its such a shame to see other makers discredit another in public in a topic that you really have to have experience in, and clearly you over looked and took as plain, normal, Nieve, eye of the beholder, etc This is blantantly why i very rarely have this address in my browser. Lets respect eachother and eachothers opinions- Not discredit and be arrogant pricks on things you have no knowledge of..
PEACE....

[refin]

Originally Posted by SKATTERBRANE

I think EVERYTHING makes a difference. Including alloys....actually all materials, as does the windings. But once again, it is the RESULT that matters, no matter how you arrive at it. The Guitar makes the biggest difference!

With all due respect,I think the player makes the biggest difference....
Peter Green sounded great on a strat,Mark Knopfler on a burst,even Steve Howe on a strat or tele.A good player will wring out the best tone a guitar/pickup/amp combination can give.........and good gear makes a great player sound better,and a bad player more clearly bad.

[NightWinder]

Originally Posted by refin

With all due respect,I think the player makes the biggest difference....
Peter Green sounded great on a strat,Mark Knopfler on a burst,even Steve Howe on a strat or tele.A good player will wring out the best tone a guitar/pickup/amp combination can give.........and good gear makes a great player sound better,and a bad player more clearly bad.

LOL. Thats funny, but true. I agree totally about players in general. althought, green to me sounded best with a paul, knopfler with a strat....wtc : ) My response was to educate on magnetic metals and their propertys...
I could'nt agree more with your statement however.....I've listened to your tunes as well: ) great stuff...Honored that you share your creativity.

[Dave Stephens]

the only "negative" vibes in what I posted are the ones you are mistakenly projecting onto my comments :-) Education is not a negative thing. I do have a dark sense of humor, if getting out of the box is intimidating stay in it :-)

"No experience" in this stuff? I've been researching this stuff for six years, most of it I won't share with anyone, I've left clues for anyone to follow, but give it away, no sorry, won't do that. I've collected books and articles and information from that historic period that have nothing to do with making pickups in this pursuit. Its enough to try to illuminate the subject and tell the winders that whats in a PAF isn't steel parts from a hardware store, or Korea :-) Read the Seth Lover interviews, do the science, buy a real PAF and study it, then when you think you know it all study it again, thats what I do. Hell I just bought another PAF in not so great shape from Ebay and intend on tearing it to pieces, dissect the sucker, blood guts and all :-) Most of the winders from the pickup forum that are here already know that PAFs don't have normal alloys in them. We've been discussing this one for years :-) The title of this thread is "best PAF clone." Truth is there are very few guitar players who have any interest in a real PAF, clone or actual historic piece. In shootouts with a real PAF the real PAF never comes in first place, modern players like something with more edge, I've seen this over and over again. The PAF moniker has been so abused in advertising, younger players don't know what a real one even sounds like, and think its some heavy metal 22K thingy full of wax and heavy formvar :-) I take this stuff very seriously but, then its also kind of a funny subject, like a religion to some, and some of the old guys who think those pickups were shit :-) I know a few who still think that, LOL....

[Dave Stephens]

Just to add here, all the winders here know me and are my friends, and you know I'm not dissing what you do (despite the perceptions of some), just trying to tell you, hey go take a look at what I found out, it works, its real, I'm not going to tell you what it is or how to do it or where to get it, but its worth doing your own work to find this as a really useful tool in your work and will open up your work to a whole bunch of other tones. I'm an opinionated old fart I admit, but I'm not just repeating a bunch of old dead myths that have been repeated without proof to substantiate it, the pickup world is full of that stuff, I love busting myths. Anyway, I think I'm done saying my piece here, back to the pickup forum for me.....

[kevinT]

Hi Dave,

I'm an opinionated middle-aged fart so I know what you mean

As mentioned before, I think it is really great what you're doing and I have a lot of respect for you because you have a great deal of knowledge about pickups and have gone to great lengths to get it.

However, IMO the only way to make a true replica of a PAF is to:

1. Use the same exact materials that Gibson had available. This means having the same exact alloys of all the metals that were used for the screw polepieces, slugs, keepers, baseplate, bobbin mounting screws and covers. Furthermore, using buteyrate bobbins which were made with the exact formualation of ingredients
2. Follow the same SOPs (standard operating procedures) that they used in making the PAF
3. Use the same type of equipment that Gibson used meaning the Leesona 102....and have it set up as they did.
4. Using the same magnet wire.

Leaving out any one of the above, to me, would void the status of a true replica. And unless you're able to follow the criteria above with exacting standards...then the best that anyone can really do is to make a PAF-style pickup or make a pickup in the "manner of" a PAF. And after all that, then you have to ask yourself, is the PAF tone there?

Hell, Gibson can't even make an exact replica...and they have all the records and instiutional knowledge of how it was done and what was used and they have the financial resources to make it happen. And as you know, they attempted it and you know how that turned out, the PAFs just weren't the same...i am speaking about Tim Shaw.

I feel that most winders are getting a good PAF tone with the parts that are available to us. I have my keepers custom milled. I have and have tested about 10 fillisters of different material, shapes and sizes, and plating as well as 3 slugs of different alloys and from different sources. I am quite pleased and very satisfied with the tone that I have developed for my PAF-style pickups. And I've gotten all positive feedback from them.

When I hear that someone has "nailed" the PAF tone", I have to laugh because it is just hype. There are many PAF tones and no one can declare that they have "the one". It's not possible. You have arrived at the PAF tone that you like..., I have arrived at the PAF tone that I like and customers will determine whether it is the PAF tone that they like.

I don't think anyone is really dissing anyone here. We're just having a logical debate among pro winders. There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

[Dave Stephens]

Well, heck no one has presented me with any ideas I haven't already explored to death. Believe me there's alot I'm not telling you, just that the metal is the engine that drives the majority of the tone. There's alot about PAFs that are super critical to do if you want to get it right that have nothing to do with the metal, but you'll have to discover that for yourself.

The Leesona had little to do with the tone, sorry. If someone thinks they have nailed a very accurate PAF tone, do what I did, put a real PAF in your guitar then put yours in the same guitar and make a no gimmicks video like I did comparing the two, if you work stands up to the real one then cool. Mine came damn close and no one can really deny that, all the nuances are there, the characteristics are all there, stuff that stock parts just don't have in them. Believe me I played that PAF alot then played mine and they react the same way and have the same oddities and faults. I would love to see someone else put it out there in lights like I did for everyone to judge. Do it

[Dave Stephens]

I am leaving this thread for good now, end of thread, end of rants. If you have questions watch the videos, judge for yourself what I did, I used the knowledge I have described, it works, its real, it sells. There will be further evolutions of the product along the way, more knowledge to discover. It never ends....adios amigos....

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

If someone thinks they have nailed a very accurate PAF tone, do what I did, put a real PAF in your guitar then put yours in the same guitar and make a no gimmicks video like I did comparing the two, if you work stands up to the real one then cool. Mine came damn close and no one can really deny that, all the nuances are there, the characteristics are all there, stuff that stock parts just don't have in them. Believe me I played that PAF alot then played mine and they react the same way and have the same oddities and faults. I would love to see someone else put it out there in lights like I did for everyone to judge. Do it

OK, I will take that Pepsi challenge. I will do a video. No fancy editing, no mixing just PAF's vs. ***'s series pickups in one guitar straight into a clean amp with no reverb or effects at all.. I will take this a step further. I will let the viewers decide which are the PAF's and which are the *** series pickups. Great idea! Thanks Dave!

Well, back when I posted the pictures of all those real PAF's at my shop. We were just going to do that video that you talked about Dave but some issues came up and I had to put it on the back burner. My good buddy Kevin Waehner knew of this and graciously donated his PAF's for my video which are good preserved original PAF's. I have 2 sets of his and 2 sets that are mine. So let's have some fun here. Stay tuned.

[BCRGreg]

Mine came damn close and no one can really deny that, all the nuances are there, the characteristics are all there, stuff that stock parts just don't have in them. Believe me I played that PAF alot then played mine and they react the same way and have the same oddities and faults. I would love to see someone else put it out there in lights like I did for everyone to judge. Do it

Okay, I will say it.

Dave, your pickups sound good. But I don't think you are anywhere that you can say that the winding doesn't matter. You remind me of the girl at the frat party telling everyone how good looking she is, and she ends up standing there alone.


Let's try this....

Why not take a set of Will's coils and Dave's metal and see what happens? Then have Dave wind coils and use Will's metal.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

To dismiss the windings as unimportant is bull. It's NOT just the metal, it's NOT just the windings, it's NOT just ONE THING.

Well?

Originally Posted by *********

OK, I will take that Pepsi challenge. I will do a video. No fancy editing, no mixing just PAF's vs. ***'s series pickups in one guitar straight into a clean amp with no reverb or effects at all.. I will take this a step further. I will let the viewers decide which are the PAF's and which are the *** series pickups. Great idea! Thanks Dave!

Well, back when I posted the pictures of all those real PAF's at my shop. We were just going to do that video that you talked about Dave but some issues came up and I had to put it on the back burner. My good buddy Kevin Waehner knew of this and graciously donated his PAF's for my video which are good preserved original PAF's. I have 2 sets of his and 2 sets that are mine. So let's have some fun here. Stay tuned.

Great idea Greg! You know Dave you and I are not to far apart. Portland is only a few hours away. In fact, I am heading up there next weekend to see a friend of mine and to watch the METAL band the Presidents Of The United States of America. We can make that happened.

Here's some of the pickups that I will use for that video.
[IMG]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n110/*********/100_3808.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n110/*********/100_3814.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n110/*********/100_3817.jpg[/IMG]

I sparked a real debate there ! I just wanted to know if anyone made PAF replicas ? Correct circle in square bobbins , water decals , things like that ? Of course i'd want them to sound like PAF's too !

Originally Posted by Buster Hymen

I sparked a real debate there ! I just wanted to know if anyone made PAF replicas ? Correct circle in square bobbins , water decals , things like that ? Of course i'd want them to sound like PAF's too !

Do you mean indistinguishable in all visual and aural aspects? For example I use water decals on my raw nickel set, and I use square in circle bobbins in all versions, but they certainly are not 100% visually accurate. Even a virtual novice can tell them apart from originals.

BTW, I have since found a better source for my slugs, than the one pictured, yes, it DOES make a difference, both visually and aurally. The covered one also has different screws than the exposed one has. It is always an ongoing effort to find the best materials. I applaud Dave for his machinist capabilties.

[PoorMan]

Originally Posted by BCRGreg

Let's try this....

Why not take a set of Will's coils and Dave's metal and see what happens? Then have Dave wind coils and use Will's metal.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

To dismiss the windings as unimportant is bull. It's NOT just the metal, it's NOT just the windings, it's NOT just ONE THING.

Well?

This test would have to be conducted elsewhere with a different audience to have any merit whatsoever. This forum isn't exactly impartial.

And Dave's pickups sound great (IMO) so he must know something about what he is talking about. His pickups do sound very PAF to me. Too bad he's being shot down for trying to share his findings.

[refin]

Not impartial?

[DanFogal1960]

Originally Posted by PoorMan

This test would have to be conducted elsewhere with a different audience to have any merit whatsoever. This forum isn't exactly impartial.

Not impartial? What are you suggesting?

I think that's normal excuse for a way out for the other pickup winders complaining. I know that a few other pickup makers are upset that one member here has so many satisfied customers that the other winders feel that their not getting a fair shake in their eyes. I go to the other forums out there and I don't see anything different nor do I see any of the the other winders hanging out much elsewhere.

Originally Posted by PoorMan

And Dave's pickups sound great (IMO) so he must know something about what he is talking about. Too bad he's being shot down for trying to share his findings.

I don't think he is being shot down but he was the one who said that he's the only one pickup maker using better parts than the others. That he is the only one with the answer to PAF's. You don't think that other winders may be on to something like Will, Nugget, Scatterbrain & Markster or any others? He has done 6 years of research. I know of at least 2 other winders that have done more than 6 years of research on this board with PAF pickups.

So to come out and say that he's the only one is completely ridicules. Especially when he said that the wind does not matter. That just dumb. I call it like I see it but as a person who does not know how to wind pickups but does know about frequencies and copper wire. I find that amusing.

I think that it's safe to say yes, the metal may have a play in it but like someone stated before here that PAF pickups have a lot more variables than just the metal bar where the screws go through the bobbins.

Do you wind pickups too Poorman? I would think yes by your answer above.

[PoorMan]

Excuse? You don't think this forum is skewed in Will's favor? I feel like I'm stating the obvious here (no disrespect to Will) but this forum is Will's house. Great for Will, but not exactly fair to Dave.

Yes, I do wind pickups, but PAFs are not my passion and I am not a PAF expert by any means. But my general pickup theory is that every part of a pickup affects tone. Wind, insulation, AWG, materials, alloys, bobbin size, pitch, tension, potting material, turns per layer, etc...it ALL matters. A pickup is the sum of its parts (by "parts" I mean techqnique also). Period.

I always interpreted Dave's statements as: alloys play an important role in the signature PAF tone. I simply don't find that offensive. Perhaps he made an inflamatory post that I missed? (it is a long thread afterall). Maybe someone can link me to it?

But I thought Dave was just trying to contribute. Again, perhaps I missed a key inflammatory post.

Originally Posted by PoorMan

You don't think this forum is skewed in Will's favor? I feel like I'm stating the obvious here (no disrespect to Will) but this forum is like the WB Army. Great for Will, but not exactly fair to Dave.

I have heard this since I joined this forum. I find it quite funny that so many feel that way. Look, I have quite a few customers that like what I do. So it's because my pickups success rate with customers is hindering other winders & their customers from talking and promoting their pickups?

It has nothing to do with my pickups and the way they sound? Just Will's Army of buds huh? OK..

You know, I don't step on any of the winders out there or do I call them out on my threads but it seems that whenever someone is trying to promote their stuff my name gets mentioned as the person that they are claiming their stuff is better. So if you want to talk about my stuff and not expect me to call your bluff then leave my name out of your promotions.

by the way, i am not attacking you Poorman but it seems that for the last year and 6 months this is becoming the norm here. I can't sell pickups, I can't get people to fall in love with my work. It must be Will Boggs's fault. He owns the MLP and those guys are all stupid because my pickups are better cause I said so. Come on.

I too resisted at first. But, after the "change" we will live in peace, there will be no desire, no jealousy, no hate or war. Imagine a world where we are all the same, and have a common reason for living. Go to sleep now, and tomorrow you will be like us and understand. It will still be you, just better.

Originally Posted by SKATTERBRANE

I too resisted at first. But, after the "change" we will live in peace, there will be no desire, no jealousy, no hate or war. Imagine a world where we are all the same, and have a common reason for living. Go to sleep now, and tomorrow you will be like us and understand. It will still be you, just better.

I do get your sense of humor Rod!

I am glad we can have fun!! I hope all is well Will.

Originally Posted by SKATTERBRANE

I am glad we can have fun!! I hope all is well Will.

You know how I feel Rod! Great clip the other day! From that guy in Greece!

Yeah who knew those Greeks play the Blues? Thanks Will. If I had any talent :-(

Of for gosh sakes dudes!!!!!!It always turns into this, you have one side who defends one group and yes you have another who defends the other side.. I think the problem is 2 sided. Dave has a passion for what he does and has done a lot of research in the PAF arena. Yes others have too but I truly believe Dave has lost sleep over it. Will is out to sell his pickups too and is a good guy. I think where the trouble starts is like one poster said, you have people for both sides. Will has his dedicated followers and Dave has his ideas and when outside people, meaning non winders start making comments about this and that things get heated and completely off track from where they started.. IMHO Dave did nothing wrong in this thread, yes he is a bit pointed and opinionated about his ideas but I don't believe he meant any dis respect to Will. I think If Dave and Will were sitting down having a beer talking about this stuff without all the other input we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

How about non winders stay out of things they truly don't know about. And I don't say this with any attitude or bad intent. Just like 2 doctors talking about something and a mechanic jumping in talking about what he doesn't know about right?

That was my .02 cents worth and it didn't cost anyone anything...