BEST ?? PAF clone ????

[classic]

Originally Posted by lp59aholicDon

IF Roger had done it I am sure it would have been in both English and German
Gotta hear pickups both ways

[classic]

Originally Posted by DarkLord

So out of those you tried which did you like and better yet which did you keep ?

I will give you a detailled answer this evening ... I'm away from my home now ...

[classic]

OK ...

I'll take the order in which I have bought the pups ...

Lindy Fralin
First HBs for me on a former Epi LPC. Good pups but still too muddy sounding.

Jason Lollar Imperials
Replaced the Fralins by the Imperials ... tremendous upgrade, very clear, pronounced tone, the mids and the low end was the best, a little lack of high end ...

I have to say ... perhaps today with better guitars I would have kept the Lollars ...

But the chase had started ...

SD '59 + JB
They came as stock pups on my Edwards. The '59 in the neck position is still the one which I would recommend, warm, balanced with bluesey character ... I didn't like the JB tone.
I noticed that the Eddie was a rather bright sounding guitar with crappy pots, CTS pots gave the chance to handle this ...
Modded the complete electronics for 50's wiring and purchased ...

Kloppmanns '59
I was torn between the 58 and 59 then ... decided for the '59 with more B. Gibbons tone ...
The Kloppmanns were the most expensive pups then and for the first time I could here all tones consistently clear all over the complete band width, even chords played in distortion mod were clear - you could here every string ...
But I think the set of '59 was the wrong choice, because in the bridge position they sounded too harsh for my taste ... I was looking for more warm woman tone with the chance for singing distorted highs ...

Purchased a '85 Tokai LS150 meanwhile, which had DiMarzios ... I wanted to leave it stock ... the DMs didn't convince me especially, compressed very early but sounded acceptable otherwise ...
Still on my search I stumbled over my Gibbo Classic PP and purchased it from Japan ...
I didn't like the stock pups ( 496/498 ????) either ... so I bought the ...

BareKnuckle Mules
WoW ... I knew then ... I was very close to my tone ... very clear, top and low end comparably excellent and the mids were right for my bluesey stuff, nice overtones possible ...

WCR Fillmores
Reading so many cheering comments on these I couldn't resist ... and that was the best I could do ...
I had found my tone ... although they have the highest output ( 10,5 - 13,5 k) they are so sweet sounding pups ... tinkering with the tone controls I can get all what I need ... and suddenly I knew what people mean when they're saying 'the tone comes from your fingers' ... no harshness, sweet singing even in distortion, squealing when you like it, screaming whenever you want ... and nice, warm 'Gilmourish' soloing possible or a G. Moore 'Still got the blues' style ...
Non of the rivals can tickle more inspiration out of me on a gut level ...
I'm blown away whenever I plug my Classic in ...

Wolfetone Dr Vintage
Gave those pups a try additionally when I had the chance by accident to get a set 'used' ... the Vs are similar to the Fillmores but smoother, without those tonal edges and surprises the Fillmores still are giving me ... they are my reserve set just behind the Fillmores ...

In the meantime I have the BK Mules in my Eddie - they are doing a great job but this combination is barely 3rd quality for me now ...

I can say ... My search is over ... unless - I must confess ... those 'Godwoods' could attract me also ... ... just curious to know ...

[Dave Stephens]

What kind of amp are you using? If the WCRs are in the 10.5 range then he's using 43 gauge wire, which will definitely give you smoother more compressed tones, its sounds to me like you must have a very bright sounding amp and/or guitar.

Well you haven't tried everything yet, there are still Shed Pickups and SDPickups, both of us make a variety of humbuckers much different than anyone else's products. I am working on a new set now, basically I'm never done, always going for a more perfect tone to my ears. If my studio guitar guy ever gets finished there will be YouTube videos coming with a guy who plays incredibly well, session guy out in Vegas. Wish he would hurry up. All my humbuckers are based on intense study of real PAFs, there is a whole world of information in one of those things, 50s technology thats hard to unlock and harder to duplicate because alot of that technology is no longer used. BareKnuckles has done an excellent job of coming very close to duplicating a real PAF. Most players though give a mix of pickups that include a real PAF seldom choose the real one, but then again the really good sounding ones were somewhat accidental.....

[kevinT]

I will also be launching my line of pickups in a few months and will have 3 PAF-style pickups available with 3 distinct approaches to PAF tone. My company is GUITARFORCE.

I want to commend you 'classic' and I wish more folks were like you in regards to trying various makers' pickups. As you noticed, each maker has their own distinct tone and all have their uses in different applications.... and for the most part none sound really bad from your discription....which is a good thing.

I don't see why more folks don't collect pickups and have a sort of pickup collection (hey maybe i'll start a thread on this).....I have a collection and I switch the pickups out in various guitars from time to time to refresh my tone....of course I'll always have my one go to guitar that I never touch because it's perfect.

[classic]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

What kind of amp are you using? If the WCRs are in the 10.5 range then he's using 43 gauge wire, which will definitely give you smoother more compressed tones, its sounds to me like you must have a very bright sounding amp and/or guitar.

Dave,

I'm using a Fender DRRI with ToneTubby ... beautiful sound ... but I know it's the guitar ...
The Edwards is the brightest sounding guitar I've ever heard ...


BTW ... there are nice sounding pups on your sound files ...

I want to commend you 'classic' and I wish more folks were like you in regards to trying various makers' pickups

Thanks Kevin ... yes, most people are collecting guitars or amps ... for me tonal versatility is one step more than this ... I love to know my (few) guitars and gear in and out with all their hidden chances and obstacles ... better I know a few hand selected as well as possible than having 50 guitars hanging around, never been played ... ... just for showing them off ...

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by classic

OK ...

I'll take the order in which I have bought the pups ...

Lindy Fralin
First HBs for me on a former Epi LPC. Good pups but still too muddy sounding.

Jason Lollar Imperials
Replaced the Fralins by the Imperials ... tremendous upgrade, very clear, pronounced tone, the mids and the low end was the best, a little lack of high end ...

I have to say ... perhaps today with better guitars I would have kept the Lollars ...

But the chase had started ...

SD '59 + JB
They came as stock pups on my Edwards. The '59 in the neck position is still the one which I would recommend, warm, balanced with bluesey character ... I didn't like the JB tone.
I noticed that the Eddie was a rather bright sounding guitar with crappy pots, CTS pots gave the chance to handle this ...
Modded the complete electronics for 50's wiring and purchased ...

Kloppmanns '59
I was torn between the 58 and 59 then ... decided for the '59 with more B. Gibbons tone ...
The Kloppmanns were the most expensive pups then and for the first time I could here all tones consistently clear all over the complete band width, even chords played in distortion mod were clear - you could here every string ...
But I think the set of '59 was the wrong choice, because in the bridge position they sounded too harsh for my taste ... I was looking for more warm woman tone with the chance for singing distorted highs ...

Purchased a '85 Tokai LS150 meanwhile, which had DiMarzios ... I wanted to leave it stock ... the DMs didn't convince me especially, compressed very early but sounded acceptable otherwise ...
Still on my search I stumbled over my Gibbo Classic PP and purchased it from Japan ...
I didn't like the stock pups ( 496/498 ????) either ... so I bought the ...

BareKnuckle Mules
WoW ... I knew then ... I was very close to my tone ... very clear, top and low end comparably excellent and the mids were right for my bluesey stuff, nice overtones possible ...

WCR Fillmores
Reading so many cheering comments on these I couldn't resist ... and that was the best I could do ...
I had found my tone ... although they have the highest output ( 10,5 - 13,5 k) they are so sweet sounding pups ... tinkering with the tone controls I can get all what I need ... and suddenly I knew what people mean when they're saying 'the tone comes from your fingers' ... no harshness, sweet singing even in distortion, squealing when you like it, screaming whenever you want ... and nice, warm 'Gilmourish' soloing possible or a G. Moore 'Still got the blues' style ...
Non of the rivals can tickle more inspiration out of me on a gut level ...
I'm blown away whenever I plug my Classic in ...

Wolfetone Dr Vintage
Gave those pups a try additionally when I had the chance by accident to get a set 'used' ... the Vs are similar to the Fillmores but smoother, without those tonal edges and surprises the Fillmores still are giving me ... they are my reserve set just behind the Fillmores ...

In the meantime I have the BK Mules in my Eddie - they are doing a great job but this combination is barely 3rd quality for me now ...

I can say ... My search is over ... unless - I must confess ... those 'Godwoods' could attract me also ... ... just curious to know ...

Man this was VERY informantive and thorough, Glad I didnt have to go quite so far to find out pretty much the same answer, Right now My Fillmores are doing it for me as well, Though a Crossroads / Darkburst mix could be in my not TOO Distant future, Or a set of WB's Reverends I need something along those lines

[classic]

Originally Posted by lp59aholicDon

Man this was VERY informantive and thorough, Glad I didnt have to go quite so far to find out pretty much the same answer, Right now My Fillmores are doing it for me as well

Don,
Thanks alot, m8 ...

I'm happy having contributed a little bit of my experience and I appreciate your comments ...
Well - I'm not a prof but I know what kind of sound I'm looking for ... the pups are the most important parameter if you'll compare them just with the equal setting of guitar and gear ...

I'm eagerly looking forward where this addiction / search for new pups will lead you and me ... ... who will be the first ???
... just curious - not a competition at all ...

[Dave Stephens]

OHHHHH, OK. That explains alot about your pickup choices. Your amp. The Deluxe Reverb reissues are famous for being very bright. Tone Tubbys were probably a good idea. We had a guy bringing a reissue DR to the jam and we finally told him to leave it at home, it was so shrill sounding and he played it so loud every one hated when he got up and played that thing, hurt everyone's ears. I"ve not been impressed by any of the Fender reissue amps, none of them sound like what they are supposed to be. You can still buy a silverface deluxe reverb for around $700-800 and blackface it for nothing, and it will only become more valuable over time, mine has. Once you play the real thing, an old fender handwired amp you'll never want anything less. I don't mean this to sound like negative criticism, but going to a blues jam in a blues town (Portland, Oregon, USA) we get to hear ALOT of different amps at the jam and some of them are just bad to listen to. I used to have Fender amps, modern ones, a Hot Rod Deville 4x10, not a bad amp but I got rid of it. I still have my blues junior but never play it, I put JJ tubes in it and the speaker has five years of loud use on it so it sounds alot better than when it was new.

My newest amp will be in sound clips and videos real soon, its a Victoria Regal II, can use most kinds of power tubes, mix and match, 1 tube or 2 at a time. Its the only modern boutique amp I've ever played that has what the oldes do.

Thanks for the comments on my pickups, there is alot of love in those things, alot of the parts I make in my own shop because I can't get what I want, those small parts are responsible for the tonal things I try to achieve.

[lp59aholicDon]

Dave I agree with part of your assement of Re Issue Fender Amps, BUT one thing, I have met and seen alot of guitar players who just dont and or cant properly Eq their gear , What sometimes works at home dosent often work in the clubs, or some guys just cant tell their tone sucks in a club

[Dave Stephens]

Yeah thats true for sure. I sometimes get yelled at for being too loud and too much treble, I don't think I have any hearing loss in the treble region, I get inspired and just want to SHOUT ya know? I've always liked a bit more treble than most I guess, but there are some guys who go WAY overboard on volume and glass breaking treble. I've actually left some jams because of the volume levels and shrill playing. When it gets so loud that you can't hear any dynamics and nuance's of the guitar's tone its not fun anymore for me.

[Dave Stephens]

OK, I'm starting to get some stuff from the studio player, here's 3 files, a jazz fusion thing, a sorta Zeppelin type thing and a drop D rhythm thing that I'm going to have him do some EVH soloing over. This is Set One Platinums which he liked the best on his gigs he's been using them at:

http://sdpickups.com/audio/fusion.mp3
http://sdpickups.com/audio/zepp.mp3
http://sdpickups.com/audio/drop-d.mp3

there is the most soloing in the fusion track if thats what you're looking for.

He also did some soloing with no backing tracks on video so should have those next week. Anway, I could never pull this kind of stuff off so hopefully it'll give the more "heavy" players here an idea of what one of my sets will do in that context.......Dave

[classic]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

I"ve not been impressed by any of the Fender reissue amps, none of them sound like what they are supposed to be ... Once you play the real thing, an old fender handwired amp you'll never want anything less. I don't mean this to sound like negative criticism ...

OK ... I love this 'bright' Fender tone ... it's a lovely experience playing straight into the amp - clean sounds with my Strat, some cranked bluesey stuff with my Classic + Fillmores ...
... and BTW - there are some knobs on the amp and your guitar ... they are there for doing their job ...

I've once owned a Crate VC50 which had a 'fender-ish' sound, swapped it for a GT Soul-0-30 Head, which was close to the Marshalls ... sold it after (3 !) months because I don't like Marshalls or similar sounding amps ... as far as I don't have to play through it I enjoy listening to those guys performing though ...
... I gave it a try just to get used to this sound, but it didn't work.

... and - at last - there is a big difference between 'bright sounding' and crap ... I have been tinkering around with speakers, tubes etc. and I can say:
If you're getting a DRRI and leave it stock - it's the worst thing you can do and it's your fault (the stock speaker is crap)! You'll have to mod this amp ... period.
... and I did and can't complain, one of the best RIs I have heard ... honestly.

... and once again ... there are some knobs to avoid that 'ice-picking' sound and to tame the loudness ...

[Dave Stephens]

Yea stock DRRI's need fixing :-) Duane Allman used a stack of deluxe reverbs in silverface days, he sure got a killer sweet tone out of those things, there's video of it on youtube.

Anyway, your amp choice does somewhat explain your pickup choices and should. I always ask what the customer is playing through, you would be surprised how an amp can make pickups sound totally different. I just got a Victoria Regal II, one of the best amps I've ever played, its cathode biased and some of my pickups sound very different through that amp. My blade type pickups sound quite bright through, yet every other amp they are very fat and mellow sounding. One thing Jason Lollar always told me was to own alot of different style amps so you'll know what your pickups sound like through different ones, he was right on the money on that one.

The thing I love about my 3 old silverfaces (Deluxe Reverb, Vibrolux, Princeton Reverb) is that they are super easy to work on and mod. I did two very simple mods on my blackfaced DR and VR to get a tad more gain. The DR is a very killer amp but unforgiving of bad or mediocre pickups, if something isn't working right it tells me right away. The Princeton and the Vibrolux have very similar tones, much more fat and bluesy than the DR.

Its interesting that when I was a kid in '68 I got a brand DR that was blackface, one of the last ones, and I absolutely hated that amp. It was so clean and sparkly sounding and very shrill when it was new. Of course we knew nothing of biasing amps or doing mods back then, it either sounded good or it didn't, or you used a fuzz tone to make it sound

[Dave Stephens]

I asked the session guy what amps he used on the demos I posted, so for those of you who I know are going to ask, here's his reply:

"For the demos I used a 2006 les paul gold top, standard. A marshall jcm800 50w combo '82, epiphone valve junior head with 1x12 eminence cab, trademark 10 tech 21 preamp. sure 57 mic, presonus firebox interface, logic studio on powermac g4. Monster cables. digitech reissue whammy pedal. Ebow. dunlop.88 picks. d'addario strings: 10's. I added reverb and compression to the final mix of each demo only.
Hope that helps. You might be surprised at the tech 21, but that's a great direct amp using the british setting with low gain. Everyone's raving about how cool the epiphone is. the marshall's a no brainer."

[classic]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

Anyway, your amp choice does somewhat explain your pickup choices and should. I always ask what the customer is playing through, you would be surprised how an amp can make pickups sound totally different. I just got a Victoria Regal II, one of the best amps I've ever played, its cathode biased and some of my pickups sound very different through that amp. My blade type pickups sound quite bright through, yet every other amp they are very fat and mellow sounding. One thing Jason Lollar always told me was to own alot of different style amps so you'll know what your pickups sound like through different ones, he was right on the money on that one.

I agree absolutely in all points ...

When I've played my LPs through the DRRI for the first time (TT equipped already) I was so disappointed ... thought that Fender had made this amp just for the use of Fender guitars only ... my Tele and Strat were singing - my LP sounded crappy ...
... at that time I owned a BluesDeVille too and through this one the LPs had this 'killer tone' ...

But - modding (caps + tubes + speaker) provided 'my tone' at least ... but I had to pay additionally for that ...

... and Thanks for your info concerning the setting of the sound files ...

[Sgt.Pepper]

[QUOTE=Dave Stephens;67348]Yea stock DRRI's need fixing :-) One thing Jason Lollar always told me was to own alot of different style amps so you'll know what your pickups sound like through different ones, he was right on the money on that one.

That is so true. I used to have a variety of old amps (bassman, twin reverb, AC30, Wem, etc..) and they all sounded different but great in their own way. I felt they were getting ruined by the dust in my workshop and gave them all away except a little 50W Marshall combo - VERY BAD MISTAKE !!!!!

[BOBBO]

[QUOTE=Sgt.Pepper;67468]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

Yea stock DRRI's need fixing :-) One thing Jason Lollar always told me was to own alot of different style amps so you'll know what your pickups sound like through different ones, he was right on the money on that one.

That is so true. I used to have a variety of old amps (bassman, twin reverb, AC30, Wem, etc..) and they all sounded different but great in their own way. I felt they were getting ruined by the dust in my workshop and gave them all away except a little 50W Marshall combo - VERY BAD MISTAKE !!!!!

Gave them away ?/ Coulda sent them " over the pond to me " !!!

[Dave Stephens]

Classic: well, in my opinion pretty much any amp you get needs tweaking, you spent money to fix the DR, my '73 DR I had to buy a new speaker, old one was blown, I had to buy new tubes and buy parts to blackface it and spent the time to blackface it and bias everything, so its about the same effort to tweak either amp to get great tone. It was well worth my effort despite being time conumsing and a hassle. But the upside of this is I bought the amp for $700 3-4 years ago, I can easily double that amount if I sold it today. Even though I love my new Victoria it will never gain in value in my lifetime like a silverface Fender will, so when players complain about vintage stuff being too pricey they forget that an old amp is an investment. Even if its been altered it can always be put back to spec and even if altered it will still gain in value and best yet you get something you can play and will last a lifetime if taken care of. These printed circuit board Fender amps will eventually fail and be worthless when the boards get too old. They weren't built to last....

If you like Fender tone, I would recommend highly investing in an early silverface amp and fixing it up, they are still a great value for the money, but this won't last, they continue to gain in value every year. The sleepers are the high output amps like the Twins, they are pretty cheap because no one wants them, but I guarantee you that will change eventually as well.

[FLICKOFLASH]

A GOOD SOUND :
YouTube - music room blues 13 billy gibbons piece sharp dressed man

[Dave Stephens]

Unfortunately the beard isn't "Gibbons correct." I can hear that it is affecting his tone by the Asian brown dye in the fake beard interacting with the molecules in his alnico quantum particles. Cute.....

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by Dave Stephens

Unfortunately the beard isn't "Gibbons correct." I can hear that it is affecting his tone by the Asian brown dye in the fake beard interacting with the molecules in his alnico quantum particles. Cute.....

without the beard YouTube - Music Room Blues 28 Twelve Bar Shuffle

[Paul]

iv got sd anitquities, their pretty close.

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

without the beard YouTube - Music Room Blues 28 Twelve Bar Shuffle

guess the pickups used

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

guess the pickups used

Hmmmmmmmmmmm WB Reverends

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by lp59aholicDon

Hmmmmmmmmmmm WB Reverends

nope

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

nope

WEll, you gonna fess up Flick?

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by lp59aholicDon

WEll, you gonna fess up Flick?

YouTube - music room blues 11 Carlos Santana piece samba pa ti

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

YouTube - music room blues 11 Carlos Santana piece samba pa ti

Hmm Bareknuckles? WCR? Sheds?

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by lp59aholicDon

Hmm Bareknuckles? WCR? Sheds?

still cold