Slash: Derrig vs Max - The AFD Period

[FLICKOFLASH]

I am from that 80's rock era & here is what i remember so it just what i heard thru the grapevines .At the time Slash & GnR were basically living on the edge so broke That Slash had sold all his guitars but his BC rich Mockingbird & had his Marshalls in hock. I heard Max had a shop that was favored by hot rocker chic or that they worked there & was the lure for Slash which introduced him to Max. I heard that Max had gave Slash his personal guitar to use to record but Slash was reluctant to return it but purchased it latter. I also heard that Slash had trouble getting the lead sounds & his manager loaned him his guitar which had the seymour Duncans or they had tryed the pickups in the mockingbird

[El Toro]

SBA;

Are you ignoring the fact that I was there. Let me say it again... I WAS THERE. Slash absolutely had a Max for AFD. I know Max, I know Slash and I know I was there.

Whatever your agenda is, I don't care, but quit telling me it didn't happen because I was around for it.

You need to grow up a bit. You were not there, I was. End of story.

[Darkburst]

From Guitar For The Practicing Musician, September 1988:

"At the last minute, when I was so desparate to get the right sounding guitar, our manager brought me this Les Paul that he got from Music Works in Redondo Beach. It was a flamettop with Alnico II pickups. It sounded great. I did the whole album with it and played it live. I picked up another one with the same pickups and that’s all I use live, Now I want to put them away because I beat up guitars when I play. I’ve got two brand new Les Paul Standards with the Duncan pickups and I play those. I’ll save the 59’s for the studio."

Here's a link to a scan of the original article.

[Southbay Ampworks]

Originally Posted by El Toro

SBA;

Are you ignoring the fact that I was there. Let me say it again... I WAS THERE. Slash absolutely had a Max for AFD. I know Max, I know Slash and I know I was there.

Whatever your agenda is, I don't care, but quit telling me it didn't happen because I was around for it.

You need to grow up a bit. You were not there, I was. End of story.

It's interesting that of all four posts you have on this forum, three are here on this thread. Look here, Jim Torgeson, El Toro, whoever you are...my guess is you weren't in the studio when the tracks were cut, or were you? I'm betting you weren't in the engineer's chair, or sitting next to Alan.

As for growing up, well, I'm about 30 pounds overgrown! LOL But I digress...

I'll tell you the agenda I have, ET. It's simple...follow along carefully since you're skipping the evidence, pics, interviews and first hand statements.

The agenda I have is to set the record straight and not have somebody else ride on the coat tails of the guy who really provided the guitars and tone on AFD. That's my only agenda here. And it looks to me like not only did I show that, but I restored the integrity of Kris Derrig, which Peter Baranet has been playing/living/lying off of for years for his own benefit. His guitars were used in the videos, that much is certain. That doesn't put them on the tracks of AFD.

Now, you may have been "around" in those days. If you weren't in the studio at the time the tracks were cut, then you were not "there" for the AFD sessions. So stop trumpeting your knowledge as it's not going to stand up to scrutiny.

Looks like Darkburst has come up with some more comments by Slash about the recording.

"At the last minute, when I was so desparate to get the right sounding guitar, our manager brought me this Les Paul that he got from Music Works in Redondo Beach. It was a flamettop with Alnico II pickups. It sounded great. I did the whole album with it and played it live. I picked up another one with the same pickups and that’s all I use live, Now I want to put them away because I beat up guitars when I play. I’ve got two brand new Les Paul Standards with the Duncan pickups and I play those. I’ll save the 59’s for the studio."

So far, all I see are people coming up with first hand accounts (Alan, Foote), and now these multiple interviews, all saying roughly the same thing...it was a Derrig, not a MAX that made those sounds on AFD.

I've known it for years. I just got tired of hearing it, knowing that it was a lie. And now you do, too.

As I said, anyone who can provide any proof to contradict all of this, I'm open to discussion...but statements of "I was there!" without proof, and "See ya!" aren't very convincing.

So let's have some real proof, something tangible, OK?

[1958BURST]

Originally Posted by Southbay Ampworks

Dang, you quoted me a lot in this story, Flick.

I AM AUTHOR OF KRISDERRIG.COM AND I FIND THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION TO BE VERY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO ENJOYING WHAT WE HAVE HERE.

IT'S COMMONLY KNOWN IN MANY CIRCLES THAT SLASH CONTRADICTED HIMSELF IN ALOT OF INTERVIEWS (ON PURPOSE TO THE PRESS ) FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS.

MAX IN FACT WAS THERE IN THE EARLY DAYS WITH THAT 59 REPLICA IN QUESTION - MANY CREDIBLE PEOPLE HAVE CONFIRMED THIS FIRST HAND THAT IT WAS USED EARLY ON, HIS GUITARS WERE SUPERIOR TO DERRIG'S 24 GUITARS. (DERRIGS ARE FINE GUITARS - JUST NOT AS ACCURATE AS MAX'S WORK - I KNOW - I OWN SEVERAL DOCUMENTED EXAMPLES OF BOTH.

I ALSO BELIEVE THAT THESE 2 EVENTS (SLASH GETTING THE 2 GUITARS) WERE HAPPENING APPROX AT THE SAME TIME DUE TO A FEW FACTS MATCHING UP. IF YOU READ MY RESEARCH NOTES CAREFULLY YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT SLASH WAS DESPERATE TO GET HIS HANDS ON A DECENT GUITAR, ALAN WAS SENT TO FIND HIM ONE AND SLASH HAD ALREADY BEEN TALKING TO MAX ALL DURING THE SAME EARLY AFD PERIOD.

SLASH AND MAX ARE VERY CLOSE, IF I WAS SLASH - I MAY WANT TO PROTECT MY BUDDY FROM LAWSUITS ETC. TOO AND SAY WHAT I WANTED TO SAY IN ARTICLES TO THROW EVERYONE OFF.

MAX AND KRIS ARE BOTH LEGENDS AND BOTH HAD A HAND IN CREATING SOME OF THE FINEST MUSIC EVER RECORDED BY A MULTITUDE OF FAMOUS AND WORKING ARTISTS.

JIM FOOTE SHOULD ALSO BE CREDITED AS VERY HONEST GUY THAT NEVER SEEKS PRESS ON THIS BS - BUT HE WAS THERE WHEN IT ALL WAS HAPPENING AS WAS MAX AND IS ALSO VERY CREDIBLE GUY AND GOOD FRIEND TO KRIS, THERE IS NO ONE MORE KNOWLEDGABLE THAN JIM ON KRIS DURING THE LATTER LA DAYS OF HIS SHORT LIFE.

WHY DOES THIS MATTER ANYMORE ? DO YOU HEAR SLASH CONTESTING ANY OF THIS TRIVIA BETWEEN HIS MAX AND HIS DERRIG(S)?

LEAVE IT ALONE GUYS - IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER ANYMORE!
THIS BS IS GETTING OLD...
SCOTT SHELDON

[BCRGreg]

How about this, then....

Until Slash jumps in on this(I am emailing him a link), let's say that FIRST HAND recollections from credible sources are going to have more pull. Remember, Slash didn't get the job in Poison because CC had cooler shoes on! Times were a little different, and Slash's own recollections are shaky at times. The guy with the least to gain and most to lose is Max, and I will again say that his account seems to be solid. SBG has brought up some salient points, but if credibility is to be questioned, Msiter Baranet should not have to answer to anyone.

Bottom line, Kris died too young and we are all at a loss for his passing. Those of us still around should enjoy what we have, while we have it.

It's late, I clamped up WAY TOO DAMN MANY headstocks today, kissed PB's ass TWICE in one day,so I am going to sleep. Gnite, friends.

[FLICKOFLASH]

All this talk about gold & platinum records . I once found in a dumpster on a construction site real platinum record award for Madonna’s “ like a virgin & another for Michael Jackson’s “ thriller true story

[ReverendJWblues]

20 yrs ago who would have thought what SLASH played would have such an impact on so many. Sorry but honestly to me (just my opinion dont anybody get pissy on me) it wasnt that great. But it is fascinating reading here. At least u guys all stand up for what u believe.
JW

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by jwblues

Sorry but honestly to me (just my opinion dont anybody get pissy on me) it wasnt that great. .
JW

any better albums in the last 20 years , strong songs beginning to end

[1958BURST]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

any better albums in the last 20 years , strong songs beginning to end

Yea - Contraband - Velvet Revolver!

[Southbay Ampworks]

Originally Posted by BCRGreg

The guy with the least to gain and most to lose is Max, and I will again say that his account seems to be solid. SBG has brought up some salient points, but if credibility is to be questioned, Msiter Baranet should not have to answer to anyone.

Heh heh...to this point, the only one who has gained anything from this is MAX, right? Surely not Kris. Not Jim Foote, nor Alan Niven...so yeah, I think if anyone's credibility needs checking, it's everyone's. I provided mine, from two of the five players involved. We can't hear from Kris, and he may not have known, either, until afterwards. So that leaves Slash...we've heard from Max...or, rather...we haven't, but there's no pics, documentation, two of the other players say he wasn't involved. So that does leave a credibility question, it's that simple.

Look, for me this is purely a historical & ethical correction that needs to be straightened out. I think Max has taken full credit for something that it seems, at best, he has only partial credit in (by his own admission), and to talk to Alan & Foote, he should have none.

So if Foote is as honest as you say, and Alan Niven has nothing to gain, and only Max has something to lose...then send Slash a link and see if he responds.

[El Toro]

Like I said, I worked at Guitars R Us at the time. Slash got a Max. He owned a Max and had the PAF's pulled out and Seymour Duncans put in. I played the guitar. It was a Max. End of story.

I actually dropped some gear at a studio, but didn't watch Slash actually play anything. I'm sure Southbay thinks that is bull too.

[HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by BCRGreg

How about this, then....

Until Slash jumps in on this(I am emailing him a link), let's say that FIRST HAND recollections from credible sources are going to have more pull. Remember, Slash didn't get the job in Poison because CC had cooler shoes on! Times were a little different, and Slash's own recollections are shaky at times. The guy with the least to gain and most to lose is Max, and I will again say that his account seems to be solid. SBG has brought up some salient points, but if credibility is to be questioned, Msiter Baranet should not have to answer to anyone.

Bottom line, Kris died too young and we are all at a loss for his passing. Those of us still around should enjoy what we have, while we have it.

It's late, I clamped up WAY TOO DAMN MANY headstocks today, kissed PB's ass TWICE in one day,so I am going to sleep. Gnite, friends.

Well said Greg .

[Southbay Ampworks]

Originally Posted by El Toro

Like I said, I worked at Guitars R Us at the time. Slash got a Max. He owned a Max and had the PAF's pulled out and Seymour Duncans put in. I played the guitar. It was a Max. End of story.

I actually dropped some gear at a studio, but didn't watch Slash actually play anything. I'm sure Southbay thinks that is bull too.

No one doubts that Slash got a Max. That was never in question, although you seem to think it was. According to Niven and Foote, the Max showed up later, after AFD was done being tracked. I think I asked if you were at the recordings personally for AFD. My guess is that your answer is no. So "you weren't there" as you claimed earlier. You were around the scene, but not there, in the studio, at the time the tracks were recorded. There's a big difference when claiming who used what for a guitar on a track, sir.

It's going to be my guess that only Alan, the engineer, the producer, the band, and Slash were there.

[max luthier]

you have not supplied ANY evidence .. you have supplied 'hearsay' .. big difference ..


let me simplify this:

FACT: SLASH came to my shop and told me he needed a Les Paul for his recording sessions in two days. He said he couldn't find a good one
anywhere in LA.

FACT: I let him borrow my personal Les Paul for the sessions. He was not a stranger.

FACT: Slash called about a month later and said he liked the guitar and bought it, minus the vintage parts.

Everything I have said is based on these three facts which I know to be true.

[max luthier]

Why would SLASH tell me he couldn't find a good Les Paul anywhere if he already had the Derrig? Doesn't make sense. Why would he pay the very high price he paid for mine if he didn't like it and didn't use it in the studio?

Why would SLASH tell me he needed a Les Paul for recording sessions if the album was already finished and was recorded with the Derrig? Doesn't make sense. If he already had the Derrig he would have said he wanted my guitar as a backup guitar for touring, but that's not what he said.

Think about this for a minute. SLASH told me he was starting to record in two days after picking up my guitar. SLASH states in one interview that Alan gave him the Derrig while he was already in the studio. Is it possible that he had my guitar, didn't like the PAFs, tried the Derrig, liked the Duncan's that were in it and then put Duncans in mine as well? I'm not saying this actually happened but it does fit the situation. It is possible.

The mistake you are making is assuming that I am lying and trying to cheat Kris out of his credit. All my statements are reasonable assumptions based on what SLASH told me. I am not trying to discredit Kris in any way. You should relax and quit attacking me.

[johnreardon]

As someone who is 61, I know how difficult it is, at times, to have full recollection, of what I did a couple of years ago, let alone what I did in the 60's.

I had an old friend contact me saying he was in the same band as me, when I supported The Who, back in 1966. He was adamant he was there and remembered it clearly, describing the antics of Moon and Townshend.

I didn't actually join a band with this chap, until around 1968 and pointed him to a photograph of the event poster in The Who Concert File, that listed the name of the band I was in and not his band, It turned out he was in a band that opened for those that came early and wasn't actually part of the main show.

The point is memories are funny. Our recollections often differ over the finer points of things. We easily remember some stuff, such as the antics I mentioned above, but not the detail.

Who is right here? I haven't a clue and even if all relevant parties were available, it may be difficult to come up with agreement. So does it really matter?

As someone else says, it doesn't to me. To me, the chap and the record, in question was and is not that great. I find it strange that people are prepared to pay so much money for fakes/replicas/copies whatever you want to call them. Still, it's their money and if they think it's the only way to achieve what they want, then so be it.

I concur it is fascinating reading, but I somehow think the main protagonists will not agree.

[Sgt.Pepper]

There's just one thing I don't understand about this whole thread and that is why nobody has used this icon yet.
My mistake. Zeppelin 13 got there first.

[El Toro]

Yeah, this thread is funny.

Since we are on the tone thing here, any phase pedal suggestions?

Also, has anyone seen the trailer of Max's movie on MySpace?

[BCRGreg]

Guyatone made a cool micro phaser (PS3) that was recently discontinued. Why, I have no idea. It sounds killer. I may still have one in the back on the shelves.

[Southbay Ampworks]

Look, the short answer to all of this is simple...the guys in the studio at the time of the recording don't remember the Max being there. Conjecture, "but I was told by a friend, yada yada" and hearsay don't count.

I seriously doubt talking to Alan Niven about this is hearsay, since he was there, in the studio, handing Slash the Derrig to use on the tracks. According to Alan, it was the only Les Paul there.

Later on, Jim Foote supplied a whole pile of Gear to GnR for the supporting tour for AFD. Doubtless there was further communication about "what was used" on the album.

I guess what Max stated "might have happened" is a possibility, in a parallel universe with a time space continuum dematerialization akin to Star Trek or something. The problem is that the guy that was there, with nothing to gain, says the Max wasn't.

So if you use common sense, what the people that were there say, plus the other interviews, circumstantial evidence, and follow up to it, it all fits. It was the Derrig, not the Max used on the recordings for AFD.

Mostly, and for the last time, Alan Niven supplied a guitar for Slash to use. Even if, and it's a big "if", Max had supplied his guitar two days prior to the tracks, it wasn't used, period, fini, end of story.

As I have stated numerous times now, if you were in the studio at the time the tracks were recorded, you're a first person, non BS, non hearsay source.

As near as I can tell, Max, El Toro, etc chiming in on this thread were not there when the tracks were recorded, so you don't really know, do you? No. You all have not done anything but believe something from a guy that has monetary gain, personal credibility, and fame to lose over this.

Alan Niven, Jim Foote, myself and Kris Derrig have nothing to gain from this, so other than to set the record straight, that's my only dog in this hunt, just to have the truth told.

Those of you who want to believe Max, and not the guy who was there, handing Slash the Derrig Les Paul that was used, can continue to do so.

I don't believe the man's story, based on the first hand account of Alan Niven, who was there. End of story.

[BCRGreg]

Just for kicks, I just dug this out of the archives....



One HELLUVA show. Axl still had the fright wig hair, and Slash and Izzy were the anti rockstars. Neither of them has ever acted like the success that they were to me since then. Class guys.

[plaintop]

Not that I care all that much, but it seems to me that Slash was desperate for a good sounding guitar after the sessions had begun. Yet he took delivery of the Max two days prior to the sessions? That just doesn't add up. I can see where both guitars could certainly have been acquired at the same time out of desperation. Just get something. Slash seemed pretty explicit about the Les Paul he got from Music Works (hi Jim!) in the article that darkburst posted. It didn't read like he was trying to curtail his connection with Max by that. He obviously liked the Derrig, he's playing it in almost every shot from that era, we know he took it on tour, cause Greg saw it in Baltimore. So, it's hard to deny his overwhelming involvement with the Derrig from very early on.

[El Toro]

South Bay, how much for your Derrig?

[Darkburst]

I think this interview pretty much settles it, unless of course anyone wants to accuse Slash of lying in this interview from Vintage Guitar Magazine, November 2005:

"I'm really attached to my guitars. Everything I have in some way, shape, or form is a favorite. I'm partial to Les Pauls, of course. A couple of them are replicas, and one is very dear to me because it's the guitar that really cut the ties between me and any other sort of guitars. It was built by Chris Derrig, and I got it through Guns N ROses management when we were doing the basic tracks for Appetite for Destruction. I was experimenting with guitars, but didn't have any money so I couldn't just go pick up anything I wanted. Being in the studio for the first time, I realized that I had o get a guitar that really sounded good. O'd been using Les Pauls, but they'd get stolen or I'd hock them. So Alan Niven, the bands original manager, gave me this hand-made '59 Les Paul Standard replica. I took it in the studio with a rented Marshall, and it sounded great! And I've never really used another. It has zebra-striped Seymour Duncan Alnico II pickups."

"I ended up in the studio with the Les Paul replica, and that was my main guitar through the beginning of the first Guns N Roses tour. I later got another replica made by someone named Max. I had those two on the road for the first year. Then, when Gibson gave me a deal on two Les Paul Standards, I put away the replicas because I'd banged the crap out of them."

Here's the scan from the magazine.

[Southbay Ampworks]

Originally Posted by El Toro

South Bay, how much for your Derrig?

Don't own one. I have a Keebler replica, made about 8 years ago now. That's my only Les Paul that's not made by Gibson. I've got three early 60's SG's, and 1968 LP Custom I bought in 74 from Betnun Music in Hollywood.

But no Derrig. I have played about four different ones, though.

Interesting article there, Darkburst. Seems to put the nail in the coffin, IMO.

[plaintop]

Well, in that article Slash said he later got one "made" by Max. Max is claiming that he handed Slash his personal guitar with PAFs before the session. I guess the real mystery here is the guitar that Max loaned him originally, and what involvement it had during the session. If Max said he gave him the guitar at that time, we have to believe that he did. Maybe Slash didn't like the sound of it (with PAFs) or preferred the sound of the Derrig and focused on that guitar for the recording?

[BCRGreg]

Maybe he wanted his OWN guitar?

[1958BURST]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

I have met Southbay AKA Scumbag ( No that really his nickname & not a put down) & can say without a doubt he is a clown in every sense of the word & is the life of any party ( a wild a crazy happy go lucky guy) & a dam good guitar player & great guy & Max I consider a guru & i hear is quite a funny guy himself. My thoughts is you both are right , I believe Slash had both guitars & didn't want to say but I believe those original Seymour’s ended up in the Max ( didn't want to say that but recall reading that those pickups got passed around) Also once thought I read the derring was the managers guitar sort of loaned to Slash who basically kept it. wouldn't even surprise me if both & other guitars were used during the recording. I also believe Slash watched what he said to protect Max & now watches due to contractual matters with Gibson

This what have I been saying all along based on the just paf-pickup facts - Slash had both of these guitars during AFD. I believe he used them both, who cares which one he got first - he loves them both and they both instrumental in making his sound.
Scott Sheldon
KRISDERRIG.COM

[Darkburst]

Does it get any clearer than this? Seriously.

"That was the guitar I used to make that whole record and I still use it today."



We all know that Slash has a Max and it was featured in Welcome to the Jungle and Yesterdays videos. No one is denying that Max makes great guitars and the most sought after Burst replicas. But in all the interviews I have in my magazine collection Slash says he recorded Appetite with the Derrig.