Edwards Guitars—The Whole Story, and More

[gibiphone]

Originally Posted by Udonitron View Post
Gibiphone,

I have used some of your info to support the whole "non-indigenous SEA mahogany theory" over on the Tokai forums. Hope you do not mind but you have done your research and I appreciate it big time! I have given you props over there

Originally Posted by tonebone

I did it too, about a month ago with Gib's permission.

Many are still not buying it, on the Tokai forum. (the story, that is)

Hey guys, I appreciate the support. I have indicated a 'level of credibility' on all that I have stated in this Edwards thread; claiming fact and giving proof where I could find it or plainly indicating all of my speculation or opinion. I will continue in my opinion that the wood is Indonesian plantation-grown mahogany until I find or am shown evidence either confirming or refuting this opinion. I do not believe that it is Philippine luaun or any other wood grown in the PI. But I am not infallible, so we shall see.

[tonebone]

I got my 2009 ESP catalog from Joe Dew (Japan, Yokohama).

I'll do scans if anyones interested. Has Grassroots, Edwards, Navigator, and much more.

?

[joebonsai]

Yes please,

[gibiphone]

Here's a cross-link to T-bone's 2009 catalog including the Edwards line.

E S P 2009 catalog

[tonebone]

I might be mistaken, but I think this is one of those prototype Edwards from the mid 80's,
EDWARDS-LP-?????? - Yahoo!Auction

Strange headstock shape, double ringers, nice inlays (better than what's currently in 'em) & pretty sure it's got fret edged binding.

And a very cheap price.

[CrazyD]

Double post.

[tonebone]

nuff said, the deleted post doesn't need to, and shouldn't, remain visible

[tonebone]

I reported this as being rude.

Have a nice day.

[CrazyD]

Apologies if you thought I was insulting all the hard work you did to put the info together, you did a very fine job.

Haven't you noticed on the internet that all Tokai threads include Edwards/Burny/Greco/Orville discussion, and all Edwards threads do the same...it's not me, it's just the way it is.

You certainly don't need unlimited funds to buy a Tokai, just the wisdom to do so.
If you've never played one do yourself a favour and get one in your hands, you'll never look back.

[mrpesca]

Great, a Tokai fanboy pissing on our Edwards thread. We like Tokais, really, we do. In fact, why don't you start a thread about them.

[hank]

Originally Posted by CrazyD

Apologies if you thought I was insulting all the hard work you did to put the info together, you did a very fine job.

Haven't you noticed on the internet that all Tokai threads include Edwards/Burny/Greco/Orville discussion, and all Edwards threads do the same...it's not me, it's just the way it is.

You certainly don't need unlimited funds to buy a Tokai, just the wisdom to do so.
If you've never played one do yourself a favour and get one in your hands, you'll never look back.

Man, there's no bigger fan of Tokais than myself. But, I also own ObG's and have owned Edward's, Greco's, etc. This thread deserves more respect.

[tonebone]

Originally Posted by CrazyD

If you've never played one do yourself a favour and get one in your hands, you'll never look back.

I did, Reborn Old, LS60.

And a {******-less expensive MIJ-} pwned it.




And where do you buy a decent Tokai for $600 USD, anyways?


edit:******, fughedaboudit, I'm not letting dat cat outa da bag again. There needs to be a few best kept secrets afterall.

[tonebone]

Originally Posted by tonebone

I might be mistaken, but I think this is one of those prototype Edwards from the mid 80's,
EDWARDS-LP-?????? - Yahoo!Auction

Strange headstock shape, double ringers, nice inlays (better than what's currently in 'em) & pretty sure it's got fret edged binding.

And a very cheap price.

Two wiseguys went head to head at the last second, and one of em snagged it. I'm tellin ya, it was a rare one.

Udo chickened out.

Can't blame him really.

[EEF13]

So are the Edwards wood good quality? Do they compare the Gibson?

[_pete_]

Originally Posted by EEF13

So are the Edwards wood good quality? Do they compare the Gibson?

The wood? Who really knows.
Do they compare? I have my opinion.

What the Edwards are made of and where they are made makes no difference to me at all.

I have this Edwards goldtop:



It's been my #1 for a few years now. It has an RS electronics kit, 57 Classics, and a Graph Tech/Tone Pros piezo bridge. It sounds massive.

I just bought a new Gibson Les Paul Axcess. It's a fabulous guitar and has every bit of the "Gibson Les Paul" tone. I love it dearly.



The Edwards is still my #1.

It sounds just as good and plays as good as the Gibby. I don't know if it's a fluke or what but I've been comparing them back to back and the Eddie gives up nothing.

[Udonitron]

Originally Posted by CrazyD

Apologies if you thought I was insulting all the hard work you did to put the info together, you did a very fine job.

Haven't you noticed on the internet that all Tokai threads include Edwards/Burny/Greco/Orville discussion, and all Edwards threads do the same...it's not me, it's just the way it is.

You certainly don't need unlimited funds to buy a Tokai, just the wisdom to do so.
If you've never played one do yourself a favour and get one in your hands, you'll never look back.

I have a '78 Les Paul Reborn and I love it....however I prefer my '82 Burny over my Tokai any day of the week It all comes down to personal taste and we all have our own reasons but taking a Spanish Inquisition approach is not the best tact really. One man's heaven can be anothers hell.

[Udonitron]

Originally Posted by tonebone

Two wiseguys went head to head at the last second, and one of em snagged it. I'm tellin ya, it was a rare one.

Udo chickened out.

Can't blame him really.

HAHA you jerk! LOL...yeah I could have had it NP. I was up at 4:50am for it too but I asked him to post or send me additional photos as they were so small and distant but he refused!? Thant made me hesitant & I just didn't want to get beautiful guitar with a cracked neck etc. I wanted it...trust me! I have a line on a couple of private deals here so I might just post some new goodness here in the next day or two

[tonebone]

Originally Posted by Udonitron

HAHA you jerk! LOL...yeah I could have had it NP. I was up at 4:50am for it too but I asked him to post or send me additional photos as they were so small and distant but he refused!? Thant made me hesitant & I just didn't want to get beautiful guitar with a cracked neck etc. I wanted it...trust me! I have a line on a couple of private deals here so I might just post some new goodness here in the next day or two

"I've got a feeling... a feeling deep inside..."

That it was prob a good idea you din't, there's prob a better one out there.

It was missing a bridge for crying out loud! God knows what else...

[Brynner]

I see no reason not to believe that ESP/Edwards use "Honduras" mahogany (swietenia macrophylla) in the Edwards series. Indonesia and Philippines have been major producers of swietenia macrophylla as furniture and construction woods for many years (often under the Indonesian name "Mahoni", but it is true swietenia macrophylla). "Honduras" mahogany is a significant facet of both the Philippine and Indonesian hardwood industries, so there is no rarity or shortage of Southeast Asian grown swietenia macrophylla. It is also plantation grown in India. Of course, lauan is also grown in the Philipines, so it can't be ruled out. The U.S. FTC is very specific in that only trees of the genus swietenia can be referred to as "mahogany", but I have no idea of Japan's regulations on that matter.

Asian plantation grown mahogany (swietenia) tends to be knottier than old growth Honduras or African grown mahogany. The climate and soil affect the final product, so even though the species is the same the final product may differ to an extent. I would also suspect that the "prettier" cuts of wood are reserved for the furniture industry it's feeding, so that may also affect the type of wood that ESP/Edwards receives. Whether this results in a less dense and lighter mahogany from Southeast Asia I don't know, though it could explain the tendency for the Edwards LPs to be on the light side (though my 2008 LP-92CD is 9.02 pounds).

I'd personally be very interested in ESP/Edwards' eventual response as to the exact species of mahogany they use. But I also would caution that the guy answering emails is probably not an expert on wood species and may have no idea what exact species is used in the construction of the guitars or even what swietenia macrophylla is. As of now, though, given the popularity and availability of Indonesian/Philippine grown swietenia, I see no reason to conclude that they're necessarily not using swietenia macrophylla in the production of the Edwards or ESP lines. In fact, given prices and the fact that Southeast Asia is a supplier of swietenia macrophylla to the American, European and Asian markets, I suspect that many guitars, both high-end and low-end, marketed as being made of mahogany are plantation grown "Honduras" mahogany from Indonesia/Philippines.

Like Gibiphone says though, I could be wrong. It's speculation, but not unreasonable.

[tonebone]

Someone should here should buy this,
????????????!! EDWARDS(?????) E-LP-70LMD? - Yahoo!Auction
It's in mint condition.

Read about the early Edwards here,
• View topic - Early Edwards Les Paul Special run

[Brynner]

I said...

Originally Posted by Brynner

Asian plantation grown mahogany (swietenia) tends to be knottier than old growth Honduras or African grown mahogany. The climate and soil affect the final product, so even though the species is the same the final product may differ to an extent.

Interestingly, I was recently speaking to a guy who buys mahogany for the furniture industry and he said that plantation grown mahogany tends to be less dense than old growth because it's cut younger. Considering practically all available mahogany is plantation grown these days that doesn't really say much. But he did insist that Pacific region grown mahogany (swietenia macrophylla) is often, though not universally, less dense (i.e. lighter) than mahoganies farmed from other regions - he attributed it to the soil and the climate. Of course, that doesn't say anything about what Edwards LPs are made of, but it does complicate the matter more than just saying, "it must be 'X' because it weighs 'Y' pounds".

[gibiphone]

I've no arguments with anything you've said Brynner. Thanks for posting up.

[Brynner]

Not really strictly on the Edwards topics, but a personal observation about cheap Asian mahogany...

I have 6 bolt-on neck electrics - 5 "strats" and one LP style (which is a Frankenstein). In terms of tone (not plugged in) I'd rate them as follows:

Guitar #1. Cheap Asian mahogany body (type unknown but not even full thickness), maple neck, scalloped rosewood fretboard, cheap Chinese tremolo, Tusq nut, cheap Chinese tuning keys.

Guitar #2. Jeff Beck signature alder Fender Amer. Std. strat body, maple neck, scalloped slab birdseye maple fretboard, wilkinson VS100 tremolo, Fender LSR nut and Fender locking tuning keys.

Guitar #3. Cheap Asian LP style body (bought original guitar at Circuit City for $24.95) - looks like poplar, but could be basswood - maple neck (tung oil), slab rosewood fretboard, "better" grade Chinese wraparound bridge, plastic nut, "better" grade Chinese tuning keys.

Guitar #4. Alder Fender Amer. Std. strat body, maple neck, rosewood fretboard, Fender Am. Std. tremolo w/ stainless steel saddles, Tusq nut, Wilkinson tuning keys.

Guitar #5. Chinese basswood strat body, maple neck, maple fretboard, Wilkinson VS50 tremolo, Tusq nut, Gotoh tuning keys.

Guitar #6. Ash Amer. Std. strat body, maple fretboard, Warmoth 24.75" conversion maple neck, maple fretboard, stainless steel frets, Fender Am. Std. tremolo w/ stainless steel saddles, Corian nut, "better" Chinese tuning keys.

Of all these guitars the two cheapest ones, which should sound like crap according to people's perceptions about Asian mahogany, lauan, poplar, etc are in the top three - and the very cheapest one that received the least love when building it (and has a plastic pick in the neck pocket to fix the neck angle) is the best sounding of the bunch ...just edging out the "top of the line" Jeff Beck-bodied guitar. In fact, the top three are so close that it's hard to rank them, they could easily swap places based on resonance, sustain, fullness, etc. This goes for the #4 guitar as well which, depending on mood, time of day and alignment of planets could sound more pleasing than #1. Thinking of it now, perhaps the Beck-bodied one should be first - it's that close.

The last two, however, are clearly not up to the level of the other four. The #6 Amer. Std. ash-bodied guitar with the Warmoth conversion neck and stainless frets actually sounds quite 'dead' and doesn't resonate with nearly the fullness and brilliance of the top four. The #5 basswood-bodied guitar is better than #6 but still not quite as rich and clear as the four ranked above it.

Keep in mind that this is all speaking unplugged. When plugged in the pickups become a big factor and they all sound quite good - but good in different ways and suited for different tones and types of music. The basswood guitar responds quite well to amplification even though it's a little "limper" unplugged. The same could be said of the ash strat, but it took me many years to find a pickup combo that suited it well (now has a Seymour Duncan Custom Custom in the bridge, a Giovanni GCS-1 in the middle and a Dimarzio Heavy Blues 2 in the neck).

The point is that of all these guitars a cheap, asian mahogany-bodied (not even full thickness) with cheap chinese hardware ranks right at the top with regards to unplugged tone, resonance, brilliance, clarity and sustain. I built it because I had a decent spare neck (Mighty Mite) with a scalloped fretboard and needed to build a guitar around it. Tonewood, hardware, etc wasn't a priority because I also had a set of EMG-81 and two EMG-S's to go in it and knew the active pickups would override the tone of the wood and draw out the sustain. It turned out to be one of the best playing, sounding and comfortable guitars I've ever played.

Based on my experience with my own ears, guitars and builds I wouldn't hesitate to build a top-notch sounding guitar out of cheap asian mahogany. In fact, after playing and building many guitars for more than 20 years I'm now more inclined to turn to the cheap asian varieties of "mahogany" before shelling out the cash for some of the more revered traditional and much more expensive woods. In this case, I really believe it's about tradition and perception moreso than what your ears are actually hearing.

I haven't mentioned the Edwards in the above comparisons because it's so different, almost acoustic sounding, a warmer, rounder tone - hard to rank with strat type guitars.

Sorry if this is a bit of a hijack. I meant to provide a little perspective about my experience with the Asian tonewoods ...whether the Edwards is made of Asian varieties or not I don't think anyone would detect with their ears unless they had a lot of experience with a lot of Gibsons and a lot of Asian-wooded guitars.

...Update: After a few hours back-to-back playing the top three I have to re-adjust the placings - the Jeff Beck Strat is warmer and has a more complex tone than the Asian mahogany "Strat" (even though the Beck has a maple fretboard, vs rosewood for the cheap Asian-bodied guitar). It isn't a big difference, but the alder Beck is a little "fuller" with more depth. The cheapo Asian rig is still ahead of the rest though - with the cheap Asian LP style body (basswood or poplar) nipping closely at it's heels. Incidentally, that "LP" has a surprisingly full, warm but bright tone - it vibrates in your arms. It's a tad warmer than the Beck and just a shade less bright. Impressive considering the Beck is from a $3500 guitar and the "LP" was less than $25. I guess trees don't realize how much they're worth in dollars.

[gibiphone]

Here's some more boring stuff on the ESP/Edwards factory in Jixi, China.

I found numerous versions of a slightly updated info sheet about the venture on PRC business websites. Putting all versions together, what is public knowledge follows as a gist and is a little more informative than the ESP info sheet I used earlier:

The Heilongjiang ESP Electronic Audio Co., Ltd. ((黑龙江伊瑗斯霹电子音响有限公司 (here they are using the characters 伊瑗斯霹 as the transliteration for ‘ESP’, where in Japanese text ‘ESP’ is used)) was established on March 25, 1992 as a joint venture with ESP Ltd. Its principal products are electric guitars, violins, electronic musical instruments, wooden musical instruments, semi-finished products and musical instruments bags (gig bags). The quality of the products meets international standards, and all the production from this joint venture is exported to Japan and the United States. Production, at present, falls short of demand in the international market.

The inclusion of violins in the ESP catalogue is curious, until you find out that ESP got its Kiso, Japan factory (in the 80’s I believe) by merging with the Kiso Suzuki Violin Company. In addition to violins, Kiso Suzuki Violin Company also made acoustic and electric guitars under the names Thunder/Tomson and Suzuki (at least a Stratocaster clone). The current ESP Kiso factory used to be Kiso Suzuki Violin factory. I do not know under what brand the violins made by ESP in Jixi are marketed.

The Jixi joint venture has a total staff of 120 people, including 35 engineering technicians, 6 engineers, and 2 senior engineers. While the Japanese side runs day-to-day production, the figurehead chief of the works is Chinese, as is the case in most joint ventures on PRC soil. This chief and legal representative of the Heilongjiang ESP Electronic Audio Co., Ltd. is Mr. Chen Xiaofang (陈晓方). Mr. Chen concurrently serves as a committee member of the Jixi Municipality Political Consultative Conference (PCC), and Vice-chairman of the Jixi Municipality Federation of Industry and Commerce. ((If anybody wants to know what this really means PM me, suffice it to say Mr Chen probably is at least a mid-level Party functionary in Jixi Municipality)).

The address of the joint venture shows up most often as being No. 20, Xishan Rd., Jixi, Heilongjiang, China; but this address is also used by other non-related export enterprises. This might very well be the address of a Jixi Municipality export clearinghouse. A second address of No. 72 Xishan Rd, Jixi was also used and may be the actual physical location of the factory.