Edwards Guitars—The Whole Story, and More

[gibiphone]

Originally Posted by ippon

nice! Dave_mc has been pimping this thread hard!

thnx!!

[tonebone]

Looks like yashoo, katana, etc stocked up on Ed's.

But no one's buying...

Actually there's a lot of MIJ on fleabay right now, no one's buying...

[Bluesdj]

Thanks Gibiphone for the info...
All along I thought these were top of the line Japanese ESP's (as rumored by many "in the know"). At least they threw in the ESP case for free. Doesn't change a thing for me. I bought this LP to do further mods and it's nice to have the 'relic' - I can singe the control cavity and not feel bad! I'm also looking at the Gold Top P-90.

[jama]

Hello, this is my first post.

I find this post by google. It is excellent.

Edwards are fine guitars.

[fisheric]

Originally Posted by Frails

Just throwing this out there...maybe the reason they are so close-lipped is because it's a cultural issue. If these guitars are made for the Japanese market, then perhaps they would prefer the Japanese believe they are buying a MIJ product, thus maintaining some form of the process (QC) in Japan. Much like many Koreans, who don't care for the Japanese generally (bad blood), maybe the Japanese people don't generally care for the Chinese and knowing where the product is actually "made" could make sales suffer? Don't you remember what American perception was when cars were first being assembled in Japan and other places outside the US?

I know some Japanese people and I am NOT saying all Japanese people are this way. In fact most that I personally know are not so narrow minded. Having said that some Japanese people I have met/know wont buy anything but Japanese products. And not only that but they take alot of pride in them. Almost as if they made that sony TV themselves hehe.

[Ace Warslave]

hmm i have two guitars purchased over the years one is a fender prodgity i think thats how it spelled.made in usa..its korean even if it does say usa made..the other is a kramer usa stamped but japanese..these are still fine guitars now ive just purchase a edwards elp.85 i have no idear when its made no number on it..any idears..i havent got the guitar yet its coming by courier sometime this week..im not that fussed if its made in china as long as it plays well

[BeBop]

Originally Posted by gibiphone

Here’s a bad pic of a section of the paint, finish, buff and dry facility at the Saitama plant. Can anyone make out Edwards models among those in the pic, or are they just ESPs?

That unfinished single cut hanging there is a long tenon quilt top with open book headstock .

Also , first photo in the thread there are two Edwards LP's that have not had the cursive script "Limited " and whatever script "Model" added to the face plates yet. They could have had problems and have been scuffed off in preparation to refinin. Who knows , just observations.

Thinking outloud, it seems finished guitars " less hardware " would cost too much to package properly in terms of getting them back to Japan unscathed and ready for hardware ,bone nut and partial set up only.

However , that might in part explain, the laquer over poly on the LT series . Thats something i've read on the internet but don't know to be fact.

Can any environmental laws Japan has , that China does not, be entered into the equation ?

[gibiphone]

I just finished a series of email exchanges with the good folks at ESP Customer Support in Japan, asking about the types of wood used in Edwards guitars.

According to the ESP representatives:

-- Mahogany, Alder and Ash are used in EDWARDS. (This of course refers to more than the LP series)

-- Neither Sapele nor African Mahogany are used in Edwards.

-- The Mahogany that is used in the E-LP series is native to Southeast Asia.

I thank ESP again for answering my questions. Sometimes it took several variations of the same question to get an answer(probably due to my bad Japanese), but in all instances an ESP rep did respond. The answers were always concise, and never volunteered any more information than was requested.

================================================== =================================================

Dear. xxxxxx

E-LPシリーズに使用しているマホガニーは、東南アジアを原産とするものです。
＜ESP Webmaster＞

> あなたの答えに感謝する。 私の質問は明確、ではない具体的ではない。これはこの主題の私の最終的な質問である 。 E-LP-98LTC/E-LP-130の製造でどんなタイプ木が使用するか?
> どんなタイプマホガニーか? どこから来るか木か?


--
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現在までに 250308 通の迷惑メールを削除しました。
ライセンスを購入すると、メール本文にこのメッセージは追加されません。
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================================================== ==================================================


Dear. xxxxx

EDWARDSにはMahogany、Alder、Ashが使われています。


> わかりました。 あなたの答えを再度ありがとう。 しかし私は混同している。EDWARDSにサペリ（Sapele）やアフリカンマホガニー（A frican Mahogany）は使用していません。。Edwardsのギターの作成で
> どんなタイプ木が使用するか。私は私の悪い日本語を謝る。



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================================================== ================================================== ===



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回答させて頂きました。
お手数ですがご確認下さいますようお願い申し上げます。

--お問い合わせ内容--------------------------------------------
以前の回答をいただき、ありがとうございます。

EDWARDS--どのような木が、Sapele (entandrophragma cylindricum)またはアフリカマホガニー(khaya anthotheca)使用?

--回答--------------------------------------------------------
EDWARDSにサペリ（Sapele）やアフリカンマホガニー（African Mahogany）は使用していません。

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無料の SPAMfighter を今すぐお試しください!

[gibiphone]

Back in Mid-August, I speculated to a couple of other MLP members that the Edwards LP series was made from genuine mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) grown in South East Asian plantations. This is completely legal because the mahogany of these plantations fall outside the international jurisdiction and control of The Appendices of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES), since the mahogany is not grown in its native range of Central and South America.

I asked both ESP Japan and ESP USA to confirm this, but have not received a response other than ESP’s statement that the guitars are made from mahogany sourced in South East Asia. ESP Japan did confirm that the wood is neither Sapele (entandrophragma cylindricum) nor African Mahogany (khaya anthotheca).

So what follows is my speculation—an educated guess. But it’s not proven fact, yet; and I might be wrong.

I believe that the Edwards LP series is made from genuine mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) grown in plantations in Indonesia. That’s why the guitars are so light and lively.

ESP has an established presence and a history of production of ESP guitars in Indonesia.

There are large plantations growing mahogany in Indonesia, principally in Java. The plantations of Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) have a net area of about 102,842 Ha (254,128 Acres) (4.17 % of Java and Madura Island ).

When Indonesia was a colony of the Netherlands, from the 17th century until the end of World War II, Dutch administrators in Central Java planted Swietenia mahogany trees along the roadsides and in forests. The Dutch began bringing saplings from Central and South America (specifically Cuba, Honduras and Brazil) to Indonesia as far back as 400 years ago, first to line roadways, and later to start plantations to support Holland’s demand as a large furniture manufacturing nation. The Dutch populated the plantations in Indonesia with bigleaf mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) more than 150 years ago, after the supply of Cuban mahogany (S. mahagoni) petered out in the Caribbean. This Mahogany is non indigenous to Indonesia and does not come from natural rainforests. Swietenia macrophylla is variously known as Brazilian mahogany, American mahogany or Big Leaf mahogany. The Dutch started the Indonesian plantations using Swietenia macrophylla saplings from Brazil and probably Honduras.

There is also a chance that the Swietenia macrophylla used in Edwards LP series if grown on plantations in Fiji. There seems to be a good supply of such wood on the international market at prices around US$1250/cbm.

True mahogany comes from only three species of the genus Swietenia: mahagoni (Carribean/Cuban), humilis (Pacific/Honduran), and macrophylla (Brazilian/American/Broadleaf). Although each has different leaves and flowers, their woods are virtually undistinguishable. The listed American mahoganies of the genus Swietenia should not be confused with other tree species with reddish wood that are commonly called "mahogany." Philippine mahogany is a name given to some of the different species of Shorea that grow in the Philippines, Malaysia, and Indonesia. African mahogany refers to several species of Khaya that grow throughout West Africa. Santos mahogany (Myroxylon balsamum) ranges from southern Mexico to Argentina. None of these "mahoganies" are listed in the CITES Appendices. ((For a detailed discussion of what constitutes “true” mahagony, see below))

Mahogany General Overview
Mahogany is native to the Caribbean and Central and South American lowland tropical or subtropical forests. Caribbean and Pacific coast mahoganies supplied the world's markets for quality wood for centuries, but the two species are no longer commercially logged and are considered commercially extinct throughout much of their ranges. By the time Caribbean and Pacific coast mahoganies were listed in Appendix II of CITES, commercial trade no longer occurred. The recent Appendix-II listing of bigleaf mahogany, the only species left in commercial trade, is intended to ensure that trade in that species is based on sustainable harvest and to address the threats of unregulated trade and illegal harvest. The listing is limited to logs, sawn wood, veneer sheets, and plywood, not other parts, derivatives, and products, such as furniture.

The listing of big leaf mahogany includes only populations in the Neotropics. Therefore, bigleaf mahogany grown on plantations outside of its native range SUCH AS INDONESIA (Neotropics) is not regulated under Appendices of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES).

CHAPTER I--FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION
PART 250--GUIDES FOR THE HOUSEHOLD FURNITURE INDUSTRY--Table of Contents Sec. 250.3 Identity of woods.
Industry members should not use any direct or indirect representation concerning the identity of the wood in industry products that is false or likely to mislead purchasers as to the actual wood composition.
Mahogany.
(1) The unqualified term mahogany should not be used to describe wood other than genuine solid mahogany (genus Swietenia of the Meliaceae family). The woods of genus Swietenia may be described by the term 'mahogany' with or without a prefix designating the country or region of its origin, such as 'Honduras mahogany', 'Costa Rican mahogany', 'Brazilian mahogany' or 'Mexican mahogany'. (“American Mahogany” is also used)
(2) The term 'mahogany' may be used to describe solid wood of the genus Khaya of the Meliaceae family, but only when prefixed by the word 'African' (e.g., 'African mahogany desk').
(3) In naming or designating the seven non-mahogany Philippine woods Tanguile, Red Lauan, White Lauan, Tiaong, Almon, Mayapis, and Bagtikan, the term 'mahogany' may be used but only when prefixed by the word 'Philippine' (e.g., 'Philippine mahogany table'), due to the long standing usage of that term. Examples of improper use of the term 'mahogany' include reference to Red Lauan as 'Lauan mahogany' or to White Lauan as 'Blond Lauan mahogany'. Such woods, however, may be described as 'Red Lauan' or 'Lauan' or 'White Lauan', respectively. The term 'Philippine mahogany' will be accepted as a name or designation of the seven woods named above. Such term shall not be applied to any other wood, whether or not grown on the Philippine Islands.
(4) The term 'mahogany', with or without qualifications, should not be used to describe any other wood except as provided above. This applies also to any of the woods belonging to the Meliaceae family, other than genera Swietenia and Khaya.


Honduran Mahogany (American Mahogany)
Common Name(s): Honduran Mahogany, Honduras Mahogany, American Mahogany, Genuine Mahogany, Big-Leaf Mahogany, Brazilian Mahogany
Scientific Name: Swietenia macrophylla
Distribution: From Southern Mexico to central South America; also commonly grown on plantations
Tree Size: 150 ft (45 m) tall, 6 ft (2 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 39 lbs/ft3 (620 kg/m3)
Basic Specific Gravity: .54
Hardness: 900 lbf (4,000 N)
Bending Strength: 11,660 lbf/in2 (80,390 kPa)
Elasticity: 1,386,000 lbf/in2 (9,560 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 3.0%, Tangential: 4.1%, Volumetric: 7.8%, T/R Ratio: 1.4

[Udonitron]

I have been planning to buy an Edwards for some time now and this upsets me personally (Just about bought one the other day...glad I didn't!). They are making damn fine guitars and charging a very hefty price for them. At 1st I thought, "rightly so as they are all crafted in Japan by people who are paid a fair wage with labour laws and rights", but that is just not the case. They have not been very forthright with the customer and have always made it seem like they were all made in Japan so you were paying for it, which is fair enough to me.

Now that I see ESP supporting literal slave labour (knowing it and taking full advantage of it and STILL charge the end user a huge dollar for the guitars) for a total joke of an hourly wage and no rights for its employees I am in no way going to be supporting them. Yes, I know most things are made in China but when you buy that said item, you can clearly see on the imprint or sticker that it was as such and thus can make a choice on the spot.

ESP has made the customer, myself at least, think that Grassroots were made in China and subsequently they had "Made In China" stickers on the neck to note that but not on the Navigators and Edwards (why are the stickers not on those?)! I think they have totally pulled the wool over our eyes and for that I think they now suck.

It is like Freud router bits, I was loyal to them and paid a HUGE price for their bits because they were "Made in Italy" for a fair wage and with attention to detail etc. Well I found out the same crap with them. They have their bits made in China and then sent to Italy for inspection and final storage and thus they label them as made in Italy due to their finalization and deportation location. Total garbage and a spit in the face of its customer base. Sure, their bits are good but when they are paying shit wages and having the end bit cost them $0.45 to make, lying about where they are really made, and charging me $75-120...pfff

Go easy on me guys lol...I just have a strong stance on this sort of BS!

[Aeran]

I hope everyone bagging on Chinese labor is walking around naked at this very moment, because if you actually wear clothing, eat food, or drive a car...you fail at being against this type of labor...

[UITA]

Just bought an Edwards last week, just to see if it's as bad as the other I had.

[Udonitron]

Originally Posted by Aeran

I hope everyone bagging on Chinese labor is walking around naked at this very moment, because if you actually wear clothing, eat food, or drive a car...you fail at being against this type of labor...

I think you fail to see the point of this thread and my comment. ESP has essentially led us to believe that their "Edwards & higher" models were made in Japan. Obviously this is not the case and as a result I feel that is a sort of swindling or bamboozling of their customer base and what many of us believed otherwise.

BTW...all my food I eat is bought and grown locally. I would not dear eat Chinese born food. My car was made and assembled in Germany with German made parts. Clothing is a tough one I agree but I try my best to buy fairly made clothing. Point is...if it says "Made in China" then you know beforehand. Edwards, unlike Grassroots, does not have a "Made in China" sticker on their guitars.

[Udonitron]

Originally Posted by UITA

Just bought an Edwards last week, just to see if it's as bad as the other I had.

Oh snap!

[gibiphone]

Please do not misunderstand the point of this thread. I set out to compile as much information as I could about Edwards guitars (short of flying to Japan), the E-LP series in particular, and put it in one place.

As far as I know, ESP never claimed that the guitars made at the ESP joint-venture facility in Heilongjiang were made in Japan. Maybe some of the sellers have done so, but not the company. ESP honestly answered the question when it was put to them, and has been generally helpful in answering most of the other questions. But you know, some info is considered proprietary and you simply will not get an answer. If you doubt it, try politely asking Coca-Cola for the secret receipe.

[Aeran]

I keep reading these reviews about the Edwards series and they all seem favorable, and lets not forget you're paying WAY less for these Asian made guitars than for our products made in the US.

Having owned several foreign cars, and putting them up against the admittedly few American cars I've owned, I have to put my money back into the foreign market, time and time again. the same may not be true of guitars, it could very well be that the Gibson USA products outshine those guitars made in Asia in every way imaginable, but please lets not forget the "good enough" products made by other companies for people with less discerning ears. Whether its made in China or not, the Edwards product seems to at least edge out the Korean Epiphone market, and those products are at LEAST being QCed in Japan if I read correctly. just my two cents, I really dislike it when things go from, "inferior Chinese products" to "inferior Chinese people", not that this thread is yet, but lets just be careful

[Udonitron]

My fiancee is Taiwanese so I would never go the route of calling Chinese, or any race for that matter, inferior, ever. Without them we would not have compasses, large hulled ships, paper making, high alcoholic beer , chain driven machinery, & gunpowder (which might have been a good thing lol) etc etc etc. However without labour laws, making $1/hr cannot equate to someone trying their hardest via having love & passion in what they do.

I am glad you didn't say Chinese cars because...wow those are scary thus far! I always understood that Grassroots were the lower but still decent Chinese made ESP LP designs and the Edwards and Navigators were their higher end MIJ line. I wonder why they do not put the "Made in China" stickers on their Edwards etc but they do so on the Grassroots? I think they know they cannot lie if someone asks them directly however it seems they hold a policy of "if they don't ask then they obviously are not concerned". I think they know if those stickers made it onto the Edwards etc many people would be leery to buy em. I suppose playing them tells the real story but I just think they should be more forthright about it is all.

[doublecut]

I don't think anyone on this forum would know what ESP paid their Chinese workers who probably have to go through a training course before they even start working at the ESP Chinese factory.
There are also Japanese ESP employees working at the ESP Chinese factory as far as I know.

I doubt that Edwards are made from Honduras Mahogany but I could be wrong.
The wood doesn't look like Honduras Mahogany to me and I would expect the weight to range from the heavy side to the lighter side as it is in Gibson's case when they are not weight relieved.
The majority of the Edwards seem to be on the lighter side doesn't seem to fit Honduras Mahogany.

Gibson has to choose it's Honduras Mahogany cuts carefully to produce lighter guitars and this ups the price.

[ethomas1013]

Originally Posted by doublecut

I don't think anyone on this forum would know what ESP paid their Chinese workers who probably have to go through a training course before they even start working at the ESP Chinese factory.
There are also Japanese ESP employees working at the ESP Chinese factory as far as I know.

I doubt that Edwards are made from Honduras Mahogany but I could be wrong.
The wood doesn't look like Honduras Mahogany to me and I would expect the weight to range from the heavy side to the lighter side as it is in Gibson's case when they are not weight relieved.
The majority of the Edwards seem to be on the lighter side doesn't seem to fit Honduras Mahogany.

Gibson has to choose it's Honduras Mahogany cuts carefully to produce lighter guitars and this ups the price.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Gibson has not been using Honduran Mahogany for years - at least on the Gibson USA models.

[doublecut]

SmartWood's Smart Song: Gibson Partners with Rainforest Alliance to Sustainably Harvest Wood for Guitars : Articles : Terrain.org

Gibson select the lighter pieces of Honduran Mahogany for the Historics and the Custom Shop.

[joebonsai]

Hi gigiphone
thank you for this super informative threat!!

[tonyg73]

I'm probably resurrecting a dead thread but damn this is interesting.

Now a question...if the thread starter (or anyone else) knows. What is the difference in the types of mahogany between the Edwards E-LP series and the ESP standard series Eclipse? There is definitely a difference in weight to me...my Eclipse II is leaner than the E-LP but a tad heavier. The only thing other than the type of mahogany that I could account for the weight difference is the 9 volt battery in the cavity for the EMG's but I don't think that would count for the weight increase.

While I like my Edwards it's my honest opinion that the playabilty on the ESP is better. Also, the grade of rosewood and inlays look better on the ESP but that's me being really picky. Great guitar, but the Eclipse just feels higher grade. Maybe it's because I paid a lot more for it though

[-=[Shifty]=-]

Originally Posted by tonyg73

I'm probably resurrecting a dead thread but damn this is interesting.

Now a question...if the thread starter (or anyone else) knows. What is the difference in the types of mahogany between the Edwards E-LP series and the ESP standard series Eclipse? There is definitely a difference in weight to me...my Eclipse II is leaner than the E-LP but a tad heavier. The only thing other than the type of mahogany that I could account for the weight difference is the 9 volt battery in the cavity for the EMG's but I don't think that would count for the weight increase.

While I like my Edwards it's my honest opinion that the playabilty on the ESP is better. Also, the grade of rosewood and inlays look better on the ESP but that's me being really picky. Great guitar, but the Eclipse just feels higher grade. Maybe it's because I paid a lot more for it though

Yes, that could be the reason.

[gibiphone]

The ESP Eclipse is fully into Gibson price territory, and is from a couple to many hundreds of dollars more than the various models in the Edwards LP series.

Specifically to what model Edwards LP are you comparing the Eclipse? If something in the E-LP-8X series, one could reasonably expect quite a difference in fit and finish for the difference in cost.

[tonyg73]

Originally Posted by gibiphone

The ESP Eclipse is fully into Gibson price territory, and is from a couple to many hundreds of dollars more than the various models in the Edwards LP series.

Specifically to what model Edwards LP are you comparing the Eclipse? If something in the E-LP-8X series, one could reasonably expect quite a difference in fit and finish for the difference in cost.

I'm comparing it against my Edwards E-LP-98LTS which I plan on selling soon. Great guitar, don't get me wrong. Has great resonance and such but there are a few things:

1) The rosewood on the Eclipse just looks way better. I have no idea how to explain it, it just does.

2) I hate the inlays on the Edwards...they look really fake to me. The Eclipse looks like real pearl.

3) The both have one piece bodies...that's a plus. While the Eclipse is thinner, it is actually a touch heavier than the Edwards. Not sure why that is.

4) The playability of the Eclipse IMO is much better.

[greenalbatross]

I lean more towards the Edwards line being made of Luan or some other Mahogany-look a like as opposed to Indonesian grown "Honduras" Mahogany. The weight and tone of these guitars just doesn't scream genuine Mahogany to me. My 80s Burny weighs in at about the same weight as the SD Edwards and LTS-130 I previously owned. The Burny also had more output and a bigger low end! Compared to my Tokai LS200 it was no contest.

[Udonitron]

Gibiphone,

I have used some of your info to support the whole "non-indigenous SEA mahogany theory" over on the Tokai forums. Hope you do not mind but you have done your research and I appreciate it big time! I have given you props over there

[Loserface300]

im still lost....

so in the simplest terms..

ESPs edwards are started in china by good, literate workers, and then finshed in japan........

i wanting one now... espically that my moms in the phippilines...

[tonebone]

Originally Posted by Udonitron

Gibiphone,

I have used some of your info to support the whole "non-indigenous SEA mahogany theory" over on the Tokai forums. Hope you do not mind but you have done your research and I appreciate it big time! I have given you props over there

I did it too, about a month ago with Gib's permission.

Many are still not buying it, on the Tokai forum. (the story, that is)

[jtrent14]

very useful info but I agree with the other brohams, if the wood anit cheap crap and the history of buyers are happy with their guitars, then until that start putting out lame ass guitars with terrible craftsmanship, I will enjoy the hell out of my 92 SD GoldTop