Tokai? Burny? Edwards? Which is better quality?

[Ducati]

Sounds good to me. I'm at ducatiwebdesign@gmail.com

[classic]

Hi,

new here and first post after the intro section ...
Interesting discussion ...

I have a '85 Tokai LS150 ... two tiny issues that are hardly to see ... all stock ... as near to the Original as you wish it would be ... outstanding quality ...



... and an Edwards 90 LTS ... big bang for the bucks ... superb quality ... although thin lam flamed top ... I love her ...



... btw it's an old pic ... have replaced the pups in the meantime ...

[Big Mike]

Nice guitars.

which do you prefer? I've been toying with the idea of one of those Edwards guitars.

[classic]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

Nice guitars.

which do you prefer? I've been toying with the idea of one of those Edwards guitars.

Thanks ...

... it's hard to say ... the LS is all stock, the DiMarzios are compressing very early what I actually don't like ... but I will leave her in this condition ... no changes or replacements ... the specs are as outstanding as on the famous sister ...
* 1p mahogany body
* 1p mahogany neck
* 2ps flamed maple top (subtle flame, sometimes looking like 3D - depends on the angle of view and the light)
* long tenon although the 'lip' into the cavity is missing
* fret edge binding
* outstanding craftmanship - 4,4 kgs / 9.7 lbs

The 90 LTS ...

* 1p mahogany back
* 1p mahogany neck
* 0,5 cm flamed maple veneer top on 1 cm solid maple
* long tenon (with the lip)
* Lacquer taste top ... I doubt that it is real lacquer - but I'm no expert in these coatings ...
* 3,9 kg / 8.6 lbs

She's my working horse, must bear all the changes and replacement pups ... and sounds 'KILLER' ... with the right pups ( currently BK Mules ) she is at least better sounding than my Tokai ...

But I don't know ... if I would replace the pups in my Tokai ... she would win perhaps ...

... My best sounding guitar is my '93 Classic PP with WCR Fillmores - BTW - sorry Mike ...

[hans-jürgen]

Just in case someone doesn't know the Tokai forum, here's the link to it:

Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com :: Index

In the section for other guitars you will also find a lot of information about Burny, Greco, Orville and other Les Paul copies. I've never owned one of those though, always was satisfied with these:

[PoorMan]

I currently own Burny, Edwards and Tokai. Burny is my personal favorite and Tokai is a close 2nd. I like Edwards, but the body top carve is deeper/lower which causes the bridge to sit high off the body. This is a design flaw in my opinion because this could cause the bridge posts to bend and (depending on the setup) could over time cause the bridge to collapse also.

I have 2 Burnys and they both sound better than my Tokai and my Edwards. Hope this helps.

[Kuroyama]

Three Cherry bursts? I understand the maple job on the left, but THREE Cherry bursts? Id never get that by the wife. Im not sure I understand it. (well, MAYBE the two flametops vs the one plaintop...then if the 3rd CB has pups in it then wed know if its different or not...

[hans-jürgen]

Originally Posted by Kuroyama

Three Cherry bursts? I understand the maple job on the left, but THREE Cherry bursts? Id never get that by the wife. Im not sure I understand it. (well, MAYBE the two flametops vs the one plaintop...then if the 3rd CB has pups in it then wed know if its different or not...

This picture was made for a comparison of these four old Tokais in the Tokai forum. The two on the right side didn't belong to me, but to a friend, and in the meantime he also sold the one without pickups (but I installed Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates and '59 for him first). You can read that comparison and also a test with several bridge pickups in the brown LS120 with clips and more pictures here:

Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com :: View topic - [Review] Three cherry sunburst Love Rocks from 1984/85
Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com :: View topic - [Review] Testing bridge humbuckers in a 1981 Love Rock LS120

By the way, they all sound different, even when played without an amp, so the pickups only add their character to the overall sound. The brown LS120 from 1981 has Gibson P-94 single coils, the flamed maple LS60 from 1984 Gibson Shaw PAFs, and the plain top LS60 from 1984 Tom Holmes PAFs. The sold flamed maple one was a LS60 from 1985.

[classic]

Originally Posted by PoorMan

I like Edwards, but the body top carve is deeper/lower which causes the bridge to sit high off the body. This is a design flaw in my opinion because this could cause the bridge posts to bend and (depending on the setup) could over time cause the bridge to collapse also

I don't know what you mean ... could you explain that further ?? pics ???

... because I also have an Edwards 90LTS ... and I would like to follow your thoughts ... didn't notice that before ...

[PoorMan]

Originally Posted by classic

I don't know what you mean ... could you explain that further ?? pics ???

... because I also have an Edwards 90LTS ... and I would like to follow your thoughts ... didn't notice that before ...

My camera is busted so I can't post pics. It's kind of hard to explain in words. But I'll do my best...

On the Edwards, from the binding edge the body curves downward (moreso than a Gibby, Burny, Tokai). Because the arch has a lower starting point, the peak of the guitar's "belly" (where the bridge sits) is lower than that of a Gibbo. This all means very little until you consider how it relates to the plane of the strings created by the neck angle. Since the bridge has a lower starting point, you have to raise it pretty high to get the action correct. Many vintage Gibbos suffer from collapsed bridge studs, but the Edwards will put even more stress on the studs. Those skinny little ABR style studs could have a hard time holding up to the string pressure. Granted, this might (or might not) happen over the course of decades.

If you have another LP style guitar, lay them out next to each other and you will notice the different arch profiles.

Another thing I don't like about the Edwards? The finish is too thick. It's my understanding that they are actually finished and poly, and then top-coated in laqcuer. This is just stupid and stifles tone.

[classic]

Originally Posted by PoorMan

It's kind of hard to explain in words. But I'll do my best...
If you have another LP style guitar, lay them out next to each other and you will notice the different arch profile

Thanks for your efforts ... appreciated very much ...

Now, I've understood what you mean ... I'll compare this - but at the moment I can't see the risk of the altered arch ... my Eddie sounds beautiful, no complaints tonally, intonation is excellent with the replacement bridge w/brass saddles and the alu STP ... maybe it could be a matter of fact within the next years ... we'll see ...
I'll post some pics to show the difference ...

[PoorMan]

Originally Posted by classic

...intonation is excellent with the replacement bridge w/brass saddles and the alu STP

Wait...Tudor, is that you? LOL! We discussed your bridge on the Tokai Forum!

Small world.

[classic]

Originally Posted by PoorMan

Wait...Tudor, is that you? LOL! We discussed your bridge on the Tokai Forum!

Small world.

YES ... you're right - it's me - a real small world ... we all meet at the same places ... nice to meet you here again ...
I was familiar with your name --- but I also made a mistake in the past ... a name just like I was used to on another forum ...
But - I'm happy that you're here ...

[Axeman16]

you can't go wrong with any of them, but i personally like the burny's. they look pretty good!

[greenalbatross]

I'm a big Tokai and Burny fan. Or at least a big fan of the 2 Tokais and the Burny I own. I've found that electronics are the weak spots on the MIJ guitars. Unless you're buying a high end Japanese guitar like the Love Rock LS320 or Navigator Series...pots and caps are usually pretty mediocre. All of my guitars have replacement electronics, including pickups. I liked the VH1s and the Gotoh MKII pickups, but am a big fan of Jim Wagner's WCR pickups. As far as materials, fit, finish and all round workmanship, MIJ is really hard to beat. My LS200 Love Rock is the most resonant guitar I've ever picked up. With the WCRs and replacement electronics, I'd easily pit it against the nicest Gibson Custom Shops. BTW...Hi and cool forum!

[FrankiePRS]

Originally Posted by greenalbatross

I'm a big Tokai and Burny fan. Or at least a big fan of the 2 Tokais and the Burny I own. I've found that electronics are the weak spots on the MIJ guitars. Unless you're buying a high end Japanese guitar like the Love Rock LS320 or Navigator Series...pots and caps are usually pretty mediocre. All of my guitars have replacement electronics, including pickups. I liked the VH1s and the Gotoh MKII pickups, but am a big fan of Jim Wagner's WCR pickups. As far as materials, fit, finish and all round workmanship, MIJ is really hard to beat. My LS200 Love Rock is the most resonant guitar I've ever picked up. With the WCRs and replacement electronics, I'd easily pit it against the nicest Gibson Custom Shops. BTW...Hi and cool forum!

Greetings! I've found that the mid-80's Burnys have the best electronics of the Vintage Jap LPs. The VH-1's are killer if you can manage them (they're un-potted). Interestingly, I HATE the electronics in the vaunted Tokai LP reborns -- most of them used a circuit board. Also, it's not "the earlier the better" with these things. The ones from the 70's usually bite, especially the chambered Grecos. It seems that they (Burny, Greco, Tokai) really had a 'Golden Age" from around '81 to maybe '90. So which Burny model do youy have? Pix?

[PoorMan]

Originally Posted by FrankiePRS

Greetings! I've found that the mid-80's Burnys have the best electronics of the Vintage Jap LPs. The VH-1's are killer if you can manage them (they're un-potted).

I was suprised by how good the VH-1s sounded in my Burny SG. They were a tad dark though so I dissected them prior to my first pickup winding efforts. The basplates were brass and I suspect they would have sounded even better with nickel silver baseplates. Alas, I destroyed the coils and never got the chance to do the swap. But they were indeed unpotted, a major factor of their good tone.

[FLICKOFLASH]

www.FlyingVintage.com - Guitar Collector's Magazine - May 2001 Issue - Tokai's Rare 1959 Les Paul Reborn

[lp59aholicDon]

Like Many guitars its I think many times a guiitar by guitar issue as well
Some Burnys , VERY few Tokais were made with long neck tenons but have other nice features Gotoh Dry Z and some other Japanese pickups also were well PAF type copied I gotta say the Japanese can get in general down right zealous about copying things to a T and trying to make them as good or better
The biggest Japanese guitar maker to be hit by the 70s Lawsuit by Gibson was Fuji Gen, Who Gibson was going to try to sue again in Japan to totally halt their copies, untill Fugi threatened to go to MITI and try and halt ALL Gibson imports to Japan Then Gibson backed down some and cut the Orville deal that expired in 97 the Orville by Gibson Guitars had all US Gibson hardware including Classic 57 pickups and Nitro cell finish's
I will buy another Orville or Orville by Gibson Les Paul as soon as I can afford to do so again My Avatar pic is my present remaining Orville, Ms Roses and she rocks

[mike newport]

Originally Posted by Ducati

Early Tokai's are pretty hot guitars! Loads of fun for the price you pay. There is a lot of mythology about how they are better than this or that, but of course you need to try for yourself to decide. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a 78-82 Tokai.

I've played a couple. They're good enough..m

[tonepot]

Hi all ... new man on board ...

personally i prefer EGF1200 Super Real's ...
maybe one of the closest things what comes to the sound of real 59er ...
PAF tone served with 2x Dry Z pickups ... got tons of mojo ... 100% pure nitro finish and very fat necks

2x EGF1200


... my beloved sisters or should i say honeys LOL


hahaa Roger ... quess who?
PROST
LOL

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

Originally Posted by PoorMan

I currently own Burny, Edwards and Tokai. Burny is my personal favorite and Tokai is a close 2nd. I like Edwards, but the body top carve is deeper/lower which causes the bridge to sit high off the body. This is a design flaw in my opinion because this could cause the bridge posts to bend and (depending on the setup) could over time cause the bridge to collapse also.

You've never played a 50s LP then? The Edwards top carve is nigh on identical to 53-56 Les Pauls and they don't have many issues

Current Burny's are now MIC, the best value for for money is easily the Edwards, but the Tokai LS-135s are almost identical specs to an R8.

The cream of the crop tho and superb value are Bacchus, handmade oil finishes. Ornetts also do superb LP copies, but neither of these two come with open book headstock. Ornetts however do a 54 style guitar.....oh and hello

[lp59aholicDon]

Kudos on the killer find, NICE Guitars man IMHO , Greco's smoke all the rest.

Originally Posted by Ratae Corieltauvorum

You've never played a 50s LP then? The Edwards top carve is nigh on identical to 53-56 Les Pauls and they don't have many issues

Current Burny's are now MIC, the best value for for money is easily the Edwards, but the Tokai LS-135s are almost identical specs to an R8.

The cream of the crop tho and superb value are Bacchus, handmade oil finishes. Ornetts also do superb LP copies, but neither of these two come with open book headstock. Ornetts however do a 54 style guitar.....oh and hello

[59Burst]

Originally Posted by Ducati

No wife to worry about for me, I don't let them get past the girlfriend stage.

Now there is a VERY SMART Man

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by 59Burst

Now there is a VERY SMART Man

After two go rounds with the marriage thingy, I am only doin " Learners Permits" Marriage Licenes and the after effects are way too expensive besides I really dont feel like being re institutionalized no more Nag ,nag ,nag

[LoKi]

Don't forget Orville for the ultimate Japanese Gibsons. I was fortunate enough to play one about 2 years ago, was a black Custom and it was on par with my Gibson LPC.

Tokai's are stellar, especially the old ones. I've also seen some set neck Aria guitars from back in the day that are really nice.

Greco's are hit or miss, I've found... although I had an amazing hummingbird copy by Greco.. found it at a garage sale for 25 bucks...

[lp59aholicDon]

I have yet to play or try a Tokai Love Rock
There is also the Yamaha Lord Players , another set neck bonaza from the land of the rising sun

Originally Posted by LoKi

Don't forget Orville for the ultimate Japanese Gibsons. I was fortunate enough to play one about 2 years ago, was a black Custom and it was on par with my Gibson LPC.

Tokai's are stellar, especially the old ones. I've also seen some set neck Aria guitars from back in the day that are really nice.

Greco's are hit or miss, I've found... although I had an amazing hummingbird copy by Greco.. found it at a garage sale for 25 bucks...

[vladmaximus]

hmmm...
TOKAI LES PAUL REBORN is better for me...
i own it & i know the sound and the quality...
its really Fantastic guitar...
try it then you will know it bro..

[05jrock]

Any of you guys ever played a Heerby LP?

I had a try of 1 at a guitar shop here.The guy said it was a 1974 model but it didnt have a serial number on it.The finish and quality was fantastic.

[uOpt]

From what I have experienced so far it entirely depends on which model you get. The highest end models that Burny and Greco made just kill everything else and you get hear how it goes down with price.

Keep in mind that different factories made these things and the same factory and the same wood suppliers might have worked for any of these brands at some point in time.

Then, there's the issue of what you care about. Do you need nitro? Can't say I can too much, although most of my guitars are nitro. Big necks? Getting the higher end pickups is definetly worth it, but you can always slam in some WCRs/Ants/whatever.

Anyway, I recommend ignoring the brand label and start looking at the individual axe.