OK--Those Of You Who Have Had The Real Thing,What Is Closest?

[refin]

I've owned 7 or 8 original '50s Gibson LPs,so I'm used to that "sound and feel".I have also an early '80s Tokai LS-80 (I think).It wasn't bad,but I could feel the definite difference between that and my oldies (of course,I didn't expect the same thing!).
Which of you own/have owned originals and some of the great imports (non Epi,of course),and what would you say is the closest import to the originals?.I've heard of the following:
Edwards
Bacchus
Tokai
Burny....ect.

I left out Max....I can tell they are probably "it" !
Thanks!

[reborn old]

I doubt very many MIJ owners have played vintage bursts aside from replica builders, and some replica owners.
So most won't have your frame of reference or experience. '57 - '60's PAF's are not cheap .
If you don't have them all side by side, comparisons are going to be limited to your personal tastes, past perceptions
and prejudices anyway.

1978-1982 Tokais and 1979-1982 premium Grecos probably come closest after 1968 - 1975 G!bson re-issues
and Les Paul replicas in terms of select old wood and hand built quality. They might even be a little better sounding than
68-69 RI GT's, since '60's P-90's are supposedly not nearly as good as '50's P-90's.
Some earlier MIJ premium Burnys might also qualify.

Modern Navigator, premium Tokai + Bacchus-Momose-Deviser models are going to be close
to Historic build quality and mahogany selection, and can often cost almost as much, new. I don't know if they sound as good.
Some claim Navigators sound and feel a little better than Historics.
All MIJ examples are going to fall short in terms of cavity route and hardware accuracy.

I haven't played all of these brands, but I'm pretty sure all are going to be closer to vintage burst sound, when equipped with the right electrics + pickups, than most 1983+ swiss cheesed and 2007+ chambered G!bsons, which may still sound good, but forever different.

With any brand and model, (including original bursts and replicas), there are good and better examples.

My Shaw PAF's sound pretty good in every MIJ LP I have put them in, but unfortunately, no side by side comparisons.

Love your sound + material BTW ! Thanks for the link.

[Udonitron]

Yeah I too have never played an original 50's LP but every past Japanese maker has had their golden oldies that would classify as their "burst" made equivalent.
Greco & their 1800 or fabled 2500
Tokai and their LS200
Burny RLG240's
Aria's 1800 (I think it was an 1800?)
ETC.
Regarding Navigators, they are pretty cool hand made slabs with hand carved tops, old school vs CNC carved tops on most guitars, nicely dried old growth aged woods, top hardware, etc so I would, to me, vote those close to a custom built model and certainly fetch close to the cost of some.
No way would I pay that for a guitar either way but they are nice guitars for sure.

[alexanderja]

I was told yesterday, by a very experienced old school player, that my Bartlett (fitted with OTPG pickups) is pretty much on the mark.

[wulfman]

I played a 59 Custom once and thought it was every bit as good as my Tokai LS-100 custom but the 59 badly needed a fret job and new electronics. I think if you have good pickups and a good amp a lot of guitars are going to be pretty close to the old Gibsons. Old wood and nitro or lacquer definitely helps get in the ballpark IMO.
I am sure there were a few clunkers in the 50s as there are with non-Gibson LPs too.

[BrazenPicker]

Here's an interesting side by side comparison between a Navigator LP and 1950s LP.

You Tube

You Tube

In an A/B setting, it's obvious (even with computer speakers) that the 50s LP sounds better. To make a more level comparison, they should probably have swapped the PAFs between the two guitars though and better acoustics wouldn't have hurt either. Outside a comparison context and with better pickups, I'd be pretty happy with the Navi.

[robboy]

Well, I owned a 58 or 59 I don't know which when I was a kid. My mom bought it for me used from a local player who didn't like the neck because it was too big. I think he traded it in on a 60 with a different neck. Anyway, I traded that away a few years later before they were a big deal for a 59 P Bass and some money. Yeah, I know hindsight is 20/20. But I remember it being just OK. In fact, I can remember my guitar teacher saying that he thought I should get a different guitar! I have bought and sold a lot of Les Pauls thru the years and some I wish I still had and some I'm glad I got rid of. Just cause they are old doesn't mean they are any good. I also have a friend I played many gigs with that plays a real 59. I think he's nuts for bringing it out but he keeps it with him on break so I guess it works for him. It seems ok to me.He let me play it once and it's a real nice LP but unless I could play it right next to my Edwards thru the same amp and so on I couldn't make a real objective judgement. I'm sure it would be different but better is a subjective thing when it comes to musical instruments. Also, a lot of the magic that the old guitars are supposed to have is really the sound of the person playing it.

[refin]

Thanks reborn old for your kind words,and thanks to all of you for your responses.
The video in post #6 was very interesting,but I still feel that when you use alot of overdrive,all the guitars all seem to blend together; the real nuances are felt with a clean to mild overdrive without scooped mids.

robboy,I agree.....there were some piggy guitars made in the '50s too.One of the guitars I owned was a '52 goldtop that had a broken headstock (completely off!) when I bought it.I had a local luthier make me a new headstock (trust me,the old one was trashed),refinish it,and put on a bridge/tailpiece.This thing weighed a ton,and had no soul whatsoever....sold it to a friend,who sold it to a friend,who...well you get the picture.
I have 2 LPs now---a '55 conversion and a '75 Deluxe (routed).Both are incredible guitars,but I'm always wondering what I should be looking for in the MIJ replicas. Had a wonderful '59 burst once,but that's another story.....

[vintageJIM]

I have seen quite a few real 'burst' among other vintage Gibbys but seeing them is completely different than playing them, and/or owning them, no?
Having never played a real burst, then I have no experience to base any opinion on however I do see a lot of nothing but pure speculation within the thread ...........


refin, I agree concerning the wanker playing the Navigator in the video re: post # 6 ..........

[UITA]

Originally Posted by vintageJIM

refin, I agree concerning the wanker playing the Navigator in the video re: post # 6 ..........

You obviously are a good judge of character. What a complete bell end you are.

[vintageJIM]

blowing a comparison between a MIJ LP & a burst era Gibby by utilizing waaaaaaaaaay too much effects is not an issue of character but then I wouldn't expect someone that uses EMGs to know anything about the difference between tone & character anyway ...........

[Udonitron]

Post of video of you playing Richie (a guitar, not your bell end).
Let's see if you can play better than that "wanker"

[UITA]

I use whatever pickups fit the music. EMG are just the ticket for my metal sensibilities, if I want to play other styles I'll use different pickups......Guess I've got an open mind and an ability to try a range of sounds. Bell end.

[slapshot]

something from the 70s/early 80s thats been well played maybe.
guitar
not a bell end

that guy could be reading out a lunch order for the shop at the sushi restaurant though for all I know

[Udonitron]

Well you know Dave Gilmour plays EMG's and last I heard, Floyd wasn't too metal like but maybe I have not been listening close enough?

Educational bit for you Rich

EMG's = active circuit thus no hum or noise thus can be used in LOUD applications without horrible humming etc.
Just because metal players use em does not mean they are meant for metal but hey...specifications, don't expect you to understand

[jacco]

And back to the subject..

I've quite recently played a 1958 burst, but only briefly and unplugged. My 1981 Tokai LS100 comes closest in feel and sound, Greco EGFs sound quite different than that.

[refin]

Thanks,jacco!
I was hoping that maybe someone owned both old and replica.
As far as the responses to post 6,MINE was about the tone used.Personally,I like to hear stuff clear and slower,and then cranked a bit..because we use both tones.

[skydog1020]

Interesting thread! Ive owned a few 50s Lesters and a few MIJ copies,just my 2 cents but the question is kind of like. "What orange tastes the most like an apple"?? As stated already,there were some good and not so good 50s Lesters. My advice is play as many as you can and dont discount the 77 Stork models. The Bacchus Classic and the Seventy Seven "Stork "models are quite nicely made. The Stork having the closest neck profile in my opinion to a late 50 Lester,tonewise thats a different thing. SD1020

[refin]

Originally Posted by skydog1020

Interesting thread! Ive owned a few 50s Lesters and a few MIJ copies,just my 2 cents but the question is kind of like. "What orange tastes the most like an apple"?? As stated already,there were some good and not so good 50s Lesters. My advice is play as many as you can and dont discount the 77 Stork models. The Bacchus Classic and the Seventy Seven "Stork "models are quite nicely made. The Stork having the closest neck profile in my opinion to a late 50 Lester,tonewise thats a different thing. SD1020

Stork? Hmmmmm.........that's a new one on me.I'll check them out.

[mudfinger]

OP:

I've had to the good fortune to play a few, but I've never owned one. Any interest in my opinion?

[jacco]

Originally Posted by refin

Stork? Hmmmmm.........that's a new one on me.I'll check them out.

STORK-STD - SeventySeven Guitars Official Site

chambered lesters

[bluesyrat]

Originally Posted by mudfinger

OP:

I've had to the good fortune to play a few, but I've never owned one. Any interest in my opinion?

c'mon!!

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by bluesyrat

c'mon!!

OP, not you!

Bah, screw it. Much respect to Refin; hope this doesn't result in a derail.

Production guitars have ALWAYS been hit and miss; I've played some really pretty vintage LPs that were dogs in terms of playability and voice. Compared to the best vintage specimens I've played...Max's replicas stand up very well, as do...wait for it...modern Gibsons (with aftermarket pickups, in every case that really blew me away).

Mind you, I'm not talking about how these guitars feel on the strap, but even so, Max did some brilliant work; however accurate or innacurate a given specimen was, they generally FEEL really good to play, and the handful I've personally touched had FANTASTIC pickups. I now know why, but I'm not tellin'. I'll leave that to Max and Roman Rist.

Let me put it this way; if I wanted a totally legit "58 burst" tone, I'd prolly buy a replica (or, in a pinch, an R8...) and load it with a good set of PAFs. Mind you, a GOOD set of PAFs.

Flame away.

[3pupLPC]

Interesting thread topic and pretty good read.

And I have absolutely no opinion that counts, as the closest I have ever been was my first LP I owned, a '72 GT deluxe.

I wonder what Billy G. would have to say?

[bluesyrat]

Originally Posted by 3pupLPC

I wonder what Billy G. would have to say?

I guess:

Play that damn thing, mate!!!

[refin]

Thanks,jacco for the website...and thanks,mudfinger for the review!