The Gibson Raid

[KennyD]

This may well be old news, but the suggestion that guitars made of rare woods (Honduran Mahogany / Brazilian Rosewood etc) could be confiscated if you don't have the neccessary paperwork upon leaving/entering your country came as a bit of a surprise.

Of course Jacaranda, for everyone who has a guitar made by Deviser, is Brazilian Rosewood.

Has anyone had any trouble or expect any trouble taking your guitar overseas?

[BrazenPicker]

I haven't been following those threads (too much political BS got into it for my taste) but is that a fact, that individuals taking their guitars across borders will have problems? And what kind of documentation would be required?

I did ask my buddy in the US to buy a LP and a LP Special off Ebay on my behalf, which I intend to take with me when I visit him. Hope that won't be a problem now.

[59er]

why did you make another one of these

[KennyD]

Originally Posted by 59er

why did you make another one of these

I've only made one. Move along.

[slapshot]

preeeeettty sure I asked for pecan sandys and this confiscation bullshit should only apply to guitars manufactured after the start of the CITES treaty

[Udonitron]

I think Jacaranda is a term the Japanese use to differentiate South American rosewood fretboards vs. the Indian species of rosewood but not necessarily Brazilian.
Both Jacaranda and Brazilian come from the same "legume" based family but Jacaranda is a very light wood and the grain lines are more spaced and wavy vs. Brazilian.
Brazilian is also heavily restricted since it is an endangered species so tough for Japan or anyone else to source any now.

[KennyD]

Originally Posted by Udonitron

I think Jacaranda is a term the Japanese use to differentiate South American rosewood fretboards vs. the Indian species of rosewood but not necessarily Brazilian.
Both Jacaranda and Brazilian come from the same "legume" based family but Jacaranda is a very light wood and the grain lines are more spaced and wavy vs. Brazilian.
Brazilian is also heavily restricted since it is an endangered species so tough for Japan or anyone else to source any now.

I'd read that as well, but I came across a site that had posted an email from the owner of a classical guitar manfuacturer and he said in Japan Jacaranda=Brazilian Rosewood.

So I emailed Sho Hara at Deviser and he said sure enough, if any Deviser products reference Jacaranda, they mean Brazilian Rosewood.

[BrazenPicker]

Well, Brazilian RW or roasted maple, good luck explaining that to a skeptical customs officer if the burden of proof is on you. At the same time, I have a feeling people are overreacting. It's hard to imagine they're going to start harassing everybody crossing the border with a guitar now.

[jamman]

Jacaranda is a Portuguese word , roughly meaning rosewood . Everybody I have spoken with in Brasil uses the term for all types and colors of BRW. I am no expert on this , so I give you my everyday experiences . But I have been to Brasil many times.
Having family there and a house there , I have some insight about this. Exportation is difficult now, as only Stump wood is being harvested and sold. It’s not the cream of the crop. But very Beautiful . BRW comes in many different colors from Black to Brown to Red to Pink. Pink being the rarest from what I’ve been told and only seen in 1 place .
It is known as “Jacaranda Violeta” in Portuguese . I have posted some pictures on my home page. take a look. All photos were taken in Brasil at my home. None of this wood is in this Country.
Brasil is very Strict about the BRW trade and will not cut down anymore trees. For now and the foreseeable future . Say 30+ years. I have this understanding because My daughter is a Forest Engineer in Brasil and has recently completed Collage in this field of study. Daddy pays for this knowledge .
Also , do you think a custom agent is an expert on BRW ? like most of us,
even if it was right in our face, unless someone told us it was , chances are you could not tell one from the other. Yes, there are some traits that we ID to be BRW , but that doesn't make it fact . There are other Rosewoods in the world that look excactly the same. And have all the same traits. Thus making it very very difficult to really know. The only real way is to get it in Brasil. These things would need to be adressed by an expert. And that's not happening at the Customs desk at the airport.

[Udonitron]

Originally Posted by KennyD

I'd read that as well, but I came across a site that had posted an email from the owner of a classical guitar manfuacturer and he said in Japan Jacaranda=Brazilian Rosewood.

So I emailed Sho Hara at Deviser and he said sure enough, if any Deviser products reference Jacaranda, they mean Brazilian Rosewood.

You mean this one?

Here is what the Masaki Sakurai of the redoubtable Kohno-Sakurai workshop has posted as a FAQ answer on their web site:

What is Central and South American Rosewood?

We call Brazilian Rosewood (Jacaranda) , Cocobolo and Amazon Rosewood "Central and South American Rosewood".
They are in the same botanical group (Leguminosae family, Dalbergia genus) growing naturally in the Central and South America.
Their appearance and characteristics are very similar when we use them for backs and sides.
Import and export of Brazilian Rosewood are severely restricted under CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) whereas Cocobolo and Amazon Rosewood are not restricted.
We classify the wood according to a wide range of quality characteristics into each models.

Perhaps Deviser and even ESP mean Brazilian when they say Jacaranda but it is a fancy loose term utilized often to just express a Central/South American species of rosewood.
The stuff is so restricted now that I would not be getting my hopes up seeing Jacaranda and immediately thinking is was Brazilian etc.

Here is another quote off the AGF via a Brazilian member:

Hello all,

Beeing a Brazilian and living in Brazil, maybe I can add some info.

Jacaranda (in here it is writen Jacarandá) is indeed a very common denomination of the tonewoods here in Brazil, even among the most respected builders.
BUT, it is usualy followed by the kind of jacarandá it is.
As an exemple, Dalbergia Nigra (Brazilian Rosewood) is Jacarandá da Bahia (Bahia is a Brazilian state). Indian Rosewood is Jarandá Indiano, Machaerium villosum (Santos Rosewood) is Jacarandá Paulista (because it is found in São Paulo state) and so on...


So, even not Jacaranda beeing a scientific name, it is the most common designation of the rosewoods used in Brazil. So this is probably why all the confusion spreaded.
We have lots os trouble translating the international wood names to portuguese, because the resulting name, if strictly translated, is already known as another kind of local wood. For exemple, Rosewood would end like "Pau Rosa", wich is a completely diferent wood (Aniba rosaeodora Ducke). Red Cedar would end up like Cedro Vermelho, but we have a wood called Cdro Rosa (Pink Cedar), wich is not even realted to the North american wood...

So, as most everything in our country, it is a complete mess, unfortunetly

The term, for the most part, is used to describe SA rosewoods in general.
Not only that, if any of these companies are using real Brazilian rosewood, I think I have lost a bit of respect for them as the stuff is near extinction and thus would be illegally extracted and bought (unless they have a stock pile left over from the 80's).

Personally I cannot tell the difference tonally anyway, that is all just cork sniffing IMO

[KennyD]

Originally Posted by Udonitron

You mean this one?
The term, for the most part, is used to describe SA rosewoods in general.
Not only that, if any of these companies are using real Brazilian rosewood, I think I have lost a bit of respect for them as the stuff is near extinction and thus would be illegally extracted and bought (unless they have a stock pile left over from the 80's).

Personally I cannot tell the difference tonally anyway, that is all just cork sniffing IMO

Yes, that was the quote. As for Deviser, according to Mr Sho Hara, it is indeed Brazilian Rosewood they use when they say "Jacaranda". No idea if they have stockpiles, but I'd be surprised if they were illegally sourcing it.

[CrazyD]

I don't see a problem.

No one needs a guitar with a Brazilian rosewood fretboard, it's irrelevant, and no one needs to take a guitar across a border that has a Brazilian rosewood fretboard.

You going to another country?...take your guitar with an Indian rosewood fretboard.
You buying a guitar?...buy one with an Indian rosewood fretboard.

[KennyD]

Originally Posted by CrazyD

I don't see a problem.

No one needs a guitar with a Brazilian rosewood fretboard, it's irrelevant, and no one needs to take a guitar across a border that has a Brazilian rosewood fretboard.

You going to another country?...take your guitar with an Indian rosewood fretboard.
You buying a guitar?...buy one with an Indian rosewood fretboard.

Problem solved...except for people with just one guitar.

[CrazyD]

Originally Posted by KennyD

Problem solved...except for people with just one guitar.

How many guitarists do you know that own just one guitar and that particular one guitar has a Brazilian rosewood fretboard.

Dude, where I come from Elephants and white Rhino are slaughtered because some dude in China thinks rhino horn improves his hard on, and another dude in Yemen makes knife handles out of ivory because some collector insists on it...and John Suhr says his customers are "freaking out" because he might not be able to use abalone inlays.

If you use illegal woods and materials to make guitars then don't cry when the Feds and US Fish & Wildlife come knocking on your door...if they pay you a visit chances are you're guilty.

[jamman]

Originally Posted by CrazyD

If you use illegal woods and materials to make guitars then don't cry when the Feds and US Fish & Wildlife come knocking on your door...if they pay you a visit chances are you're guilty.

Well the problem IS this ... The wood is not illegal , to start with .. Brasil is trying to control the exportation of it. It is however illegal to cut NEW trees down. Hence , the problem of trying to prove When the wood was Harvested. In Brasil, BRW is easy to buy , very easy.

[KennyD]

Originally Posted by jamman

Well the problem IS this ... The wood is not illegal , to start with .. Brasil is trying to control the exportation of it. It is however illegal to cut NEW trees down. Hence , the problem of trying to prove When the wood was Harvested. In Brasil, BRW is easy to buy , very easy.

So that's you told CrazyD. I have one guitar, but maybe that means I'm not a "guitarist". You do seem to know a fair bit about Rhino hard-ons though, so if I ever need to make a Rhino horny, I'll give you a shout. Thanks for playing!

The point of the original post was to simply ask if anyone had encountered or expected to encounter any difficulties taking their guitar across a border, in light of the suggestion that guitars with certain woods may need "paperwork". Simple enough I thought.

So far we've had open hostility, a rosewood v rosewood "cork sniffing" and definition contest, rhino horns and hard-ons. Maybe I used too many big words in my original post, although Slapshot has probably hit the nail of the head.

I think I'll follow up with Deviser about their wood sourcing.

[UITA]

Hmmmm.....interesting.

[jamman]

Originally Posted by KennyD

So that's you told CrazyD. I have one guitar, but maybe that means I'm not a "guitarist". You do seem to know a fair bit about Rhino hard-ons though, so if I ever need to make a Rhino horny, I'll give you a shout. Thanks for playing!

The point of the original post was to simply ask if anyone had encountered or expected to encounter any difficulties taking their guitar across a border, in light of the suggestion that guitars with certain woods may need "paperwork". Simple enough I thought.

So far we've had open hostility, a rosewood v rosewood "cork sniffing" and definition contest, rhino horns and hard-ons. Maybe I used too many big words in my original post, although Slapshot has probably hit the nail of the head.

I think I'll follow up with Deviser about their wood sourcing.

I'm not understanding if your complete responce, is directed to me or what ?
There was no cork-sniffing, but , more of trying to get the correct terms out so that it would be understood , clearly. As there is some misunderstanding that BRW is grown outside of Brasil . It's not. It only comes from Brasil.

As for your other reply about the Rino's, that ain't me. Never wrote it. It seems like there were only 2 who were hostile, Rino man and your responce.
The point of which your post is addressing is .... if you had a problem with your guitar or do you expect a problem.

What is being handed down from our government now, is the burden of proof is on you to prove that your guitar is in complience .
I have been back and forth to Brasil many times with no problems. But Now from what I have read, If questioned at Customs, upon entry into the USA , the Agent thinks your guitar has BRW you need to prove the guitar was made legally. With all the correct paper work and documents.
The problem is No body has this . Nobody. So , even if your guitar doesn't have BRW on it , if the Customs agent thinks it is , ....Well , kiss your guitar goodbye.

[BrazenPicker]

Here's one of the guitars I asked my friend to buy on my behalf, and which I need to get across the border. Looks like Madagascar RW to me. I guess I'll find out when I take it out of the US!



Apart from all the culture war BS, I think it's worth having a thread talking about the practical implications of this. It would be draconian to demand paperwork of everybody crossing the border with a guitar. They'd have to confiscate most people's guitars.

As for the Japanese "jacaranda", I always thought of this as a marketing ploy (not BRW but leave the customer free to think that it is), so I'm not sure you're going to get an honest answer out of Deviser on this one.

[dead end horror]

In the EU there is a law from 2010 which was made for stopping illegal woodtrade. When you want to import some wood, you have to show the legality of the source, where it was harvested, how it was transported, the way of the selling and way of the buying.
At the moment its only for wood, but not for paper(products) and also not for wooden products.
I don't think that this law is the best way to protect rare woods, cause the companies can make the workmanship in a country, what isn't in the EU and import their products from there....

[KennyD]

Originally Posted by jamman

I'm not understanding if your complete responce, is directed to me or what ?
There was no cork-sniffing, but , more of trying to get the correct terms out so that it would be understood , clearly. As there is some misunderstanding that BRW is grown outside of Brasil . It's not. It only comes from Brasil.

As for your other reply about the Rino's, that ain't me. Never wrote it. It seems like there were only 2 who were hostile, Rino man and your responce.
The point of which your post is addressing is .... if you had a problem with your guitar or do you expect a problem.

What is being handed down from our government now, is the burden of proof is on you to prove that your guitar is in complience .
I have been back and forth to Brasil many times with no problems. But Now from what I have read, If questioned at Customs, upon entry into the USA , the Agent thinks your guitar has BRW you need to prove the guitar was made legally. With all the correct paper work and documents.
The problem is No body has this . Nobody. So , even if your guitar doesn't have BRW on it , if the Customs agent thinks it is , ....Well , kiss your guitar goodbye.

Jamman, your posts have been nothing but helpful. Thank you. My ire was directed at the chap talking about elephant tusks, rhinos and hard-ons.

In short, it looks as though the safest thing to do would be to not travel with a guitar that has those specs. How likely is it that customs agents will look for and identify wood species on personal guitars? I'd like to think it was unlikely. However, I hadn't imagined that my guitar might be confined to the country I live in.

C'est la vie! I guess there is no point in worrying until people start getting their guitars confiscated, and if that happens, I'm sure we'll all hear about it on these forums.

[CrazyD]

Originally Posted by KennyD

So that's you told CrazyD. I have one guitar, but maybe that means I'm not a "guitarist". You do seem to know a fair bit about Rhino hard-ons though, so if I ever need to make a Rhino horny, I'll give you a shout. Thanks for playing!

The point of the original post was to simply ask if anyone had encountered or expected to encounter any difficulties taking their guitar across a border, in light of the suggestion that guitars with certain woods may need "paperwork". Simple enough I thought.

So far we've had open hostility, a rosewood v rosewood "cork sniffing" and definition contest, rhino horns and hard-ons. Maybe I used too many big words in my original post, although Slapshot has probably hit the nail of the head.

I think I'll follow up with Deviser about their wood sourcing.

Kenny...how many times have you taken a guitar over the border?
Do you gig internationally?

[KennyD]

Originally Posted by BrazenPicker

Here's one of the guitars I asked my friend to buy on my behalf, and which I need to get across the border. Looks like Madagascar RW to me. I guess I'll find out when I take it out of the US!

Apart from all the culture war BS, I think it's worth having a thread talking about the practical implications of this. It would be draconian to demand paperwork of everybody crossing the border with a guitar. They'd have to confiscate most people's guitars.

As for the Japanese "jacaranda", I always thought of this as a marketing ploy (not BRW but leave the customer free to think that it is), so I'm not sure you're going to get an honest answer out of Deviser on this one.

Agreed re the practical implications! It could well be a marketing ploy in some areas, although as Deviser seem to use this wood sparingly on their electric guitars, I'd be inclined to say that Mr Sho Hara was being sincere in his response to me.

[SingeMonkey]

The statements about guitars being confiscated seem like typical conservative huffing to put the environmental lobby in a bad light. Start to worry when the first guitar among all the thousands and thousands that pass through customs daily is actually confiscated due to its construction with illegal woods. Until then it's all so much freaking out for nothing.

[BrazenPicker]

Exactly. The indignation industry is having a field day.

[KennyD]

Originally Posted by SingeMonkey

The statements about guitars being confiscated seem like typical conservative huffing to put the environmental lobby in a bad light. Start to worry when the first guitar among all the thousands and thousands that pass through customs daily is actually confiscated due to its construction with illegal woods. Until then it's all so much freaking out for nothing.

That's what I was saying - if guitars are confiscated, we'll hear about it on these forums.

On another note, Mr Sho Hara from Deviser emailed me;

"The brazilaian rosewood is from a stockpile of old materials. It is impossible for us to import it from Brazil.
Best regards,
Sho Hara"

No doubt they use Brazilian Rosewood. Good to know it's all above board.

[BrazenPicker]

Good to know. One day I'd like to get a nice Momose LP.

[KennyD]

Originally Posted by BrazenPicker

Good to know. One day I'd like to get a nice Momose LP.

Definitely! I like their own headstock shape and the two-tone wood effect they have. If I ever have the $$$ for one I'd get one like that. Don't tend to see too many of them on Yahoo though.

[BrazenPicker]

There's a few on j-guitar. Sometimes you get lucky and the shops will ship to you. I like their Strat headstocks too.

[slapshot]

Originally Posted by SingeMonkey

The statements about guitars being confiscated seem like typical conservative huffing to put the environmental lobby in a bad light. Start to worry when the first guitar among all the thousands and thousands that pass through customs daily is actually confiscated due to its construction with illegal woods. Until then it's all so much freaking out for nothing.

well I did have 1 come close to being rejected/confiscated that came in through Fed Ex (unfortunately) it was a 1964 Gretsch and it caused a bit of a flutter at customs for a number of reasons but most importantly they couldn't determine where it was made & how it was treated.
1.fed ex opens it.it smells funny (40+ years of nitro + musty old case)
2.they fumigate it.
3.they decide in their infinite wisdom that since they can't determine it's origin & how it's been treated it could pose a risk to the environment
4.I had to get a signed stat dec from a guitar shop stating the serial number determines when it was made (vintage) & basically write a ****ing term paper on vintage Gretsch production citing references.
5.in short,according to my phone conversation,it was the same as if you go to some island country like Fiji & bring back some sort of souvineer made by locals on the beach.AUthetic as **** but they'll burn it cause it wasn't treated