Chinese Fakes...

[Custom53]

A few days ago I posted about a Chinese fake. I had originally thought that if you told someone it was a fake it was okay. Untill I read this response to a guy selling a Chinese "replica" on Criagslist in Columbus, Ohio. It kind of opened my eyes... It might open some eyes here too...

I am not trying to stand up for Chinese "fakes" nor am I putting some extremly nice "replicas". Just trying to understand the huge double standard...

When it says Gibson on the headstock and it wasn't made by Gibson what is the difference between "fake" and "replica"...?





RE: Gibson Les Paul Silverburst - Replica (Re-Listed) - $1 (Think About It)

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Date: 2010-09-23, 9:59AM EDT
Reply to: sale-gk4su-1969046804@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

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FYI, Knowing selling a Fake Gibson Les Paul copy is against the law and is a Federal offense. The fact that you are not trying to mislead anyone into thinking this is NOT the real deal makes absolutely NO difference in the eyes of the law. If arrested and convicted you will pay a huge fine as well as doing some prison time. This is NO joke...this is a serious offense.

Whether on not you claim the fake is a fake or not it is STILL against the law.

Here was a remark made in Gibson Forums http://forums.gibson.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1750... "A lot of people keep making that same mistaken assumption. Even if you tell people it's a fake, it's still illegal to sell a counterfeit item. Think about it, could you sell counterfeit $20 bills for $10 as long as you tell people they're fake? I report ads from guys selling fakes even if they say it in the ad, and they get pulled. Even if he's being "honest", there's a good chance the guy buying it from him won't be. It'll be on ebay a week later for three times the price and some poor kid will blow all the money he saved from his summer job buying some chinese piece of crap."

Click on the links and read.
The original federal law against selling counterfeit merchandise is the Lantham Act

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmlaw2.pdf , covered under Title VIII - FALSE DESIGNATIONS OF ORIGIN, FALSE DESCRIPTIONS. AND DILUTION FORBIDDEN, page 213

This Act was supplemented with the Anti Counterfeiting Consumer Protection Act of 1996
http://ftp.resource.org/gpo.gov/laws...ubl153.104.pdf

http://www.guitarsite.com/news/other...s_sold_in_usa/


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PostingID: 1969046804


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[Annoying Twit]

I have to agree with the analogy about selling fake $20 bills.

[mono]

I ain't touching this!!!

[River]

Originally Posted by Mono

I ain't touching this!!!

You just did.

I'm fully aware of all that. I've been slapped around for pointing it out. End of my input.

[captain von rat]

it seems that USA-made fake Gibsons are OK on this forum (with some people).

[GammyBird]

[Frankie A.]

[GibsonByBirth]

This topic is what made half of my ignore list. I noticed that none of the supporters of fakes chimed in on the thread were the kid posted a picture of the guitar he was about to buy from his friend. It was a fake Gibson guitar. That thread demonstrated the trouble fakes cause and the pro fakers could not have deffended their position. Their position is that no one dies from fakes so they are ok. That really is indefensible anyway.

[Custom53]

Originally Posted by captain von rat

it seems that USA-made fake Gibsons are OK on this forum (with some people).

Exactly my point. I don't mind the Orvilles, Edwards, Tokias, Burnys. Yes, they have copied the basic design but aren't putting Gibson on the headstock..

And you're correct. The people who own non-Chinese fake Gibsons have not really responded to my initial question...

[moff40]

We all know that handbuilt luthier replicas are fine instruments, where the Chinese knock-offs are usually anything but. But what differentiates a what we call a "replica" from what we call a "fake"?

I'd like to know what the difference is - from a legal\moral perspective - between, say, a Musoland Chinese fake, and the "replica" Slash used on AFD. Neither were made by Gibson, but both have the Gibson logo on the headstock. According to the letter of the law, they're both counterfeits. It is just as illegal to sell Slash's guitar as it is to sell the Musoland. So why is one regarded as being OK, and the other not?

Here's another question: Are guitars with aftermarket wood but all Gibson electronics and hardware still Gibsons? Most would say no. We also normally are of the opinion that guitars with all Gibson wood and aftermarket hardware and electronics are still Gibsons, but what if it had been renecked and only the body was Gibson - or only the neck was genuine? How much "genuine Gibson" has to be present, and in what places, to still be considered a "real" Gibson?

[Solidasrock]

Originally Posted by Custom53

FYI, Knowing selling a Fake Gibson Les Paul copy is against the law and is a Federal offense. The fact that you are not trying to mislead anyone into thinking this is NOT the real deal makes absolutely NO difference in the eyes of the law. If arrested and convicted you will pay a huge fine as well as doing some prison time. This is NO joke...this is a serious offense.

'''as well as do some prison time...."


Are you in the USA or Iran? Do prison time?

Everybody in the USA must be in prison for some offense or another.

One can question the ethics of replicas/fakes, etc. without being silly. Do you work for the Gibson propaganda department?

The odds of someone in my country, Canada, doing prison time for selling this gutar would be ZILCH. Our courts are based on common sense and no judge is going to treat selling a declared fake guitar the same as selling couterfeit $20 bills. In fact, in Canada and most western democracies, even couterfeiting $20 bills would probably not land you in prison if you had no previous criminal record.

Do the police in the USA really have nothing else to do? Judges bored? Prisons with empty cells?

[River]

Originally Posted by Solidasrock

'''as well as do some prison time...."

Are you in the USA or Iran? Do prison time?

Everybody in the USA must be in prison for some offense or another.

One can question the ethics of replicas/fakes, etc. without being silly. Do you work for the Gibson propaganda department?

The odds of someone in my country, Canada, doing prison time for selling this gutar would be ZILCH. Our courts are based on common sense and no judge is going to treat selling a declared fake guitar the same as selling couterfeit $20 bills. In fact, in Canada and most western democracies, even couterfeiting $20 bills would probably not land you in prison if you had no previous criminal record.

Do the police in the USA really have nothing else to do? Judges bored? Prisons with empty cells?

I believe he was quoting someone else...

To your sarcastic questions, you'd be surprised what laws get enforced when there's publicity for the ambitious in it. But practically, the chances of prison time here are no greater than wherever you are. Confiscation of the goods, however, is a completely different story.

[GammyBird]

I have a bigger problem with the Chinese fakes because they are made to deceive the buyer. You can get a Gibson for $250!! Another problem is people buying them and trying to resell a LP Custom for $1000. Some kid or inexperienced buyer picks it up and eventually finds out they've been duped. The custom made replicas don't sell anywhere near the Chinese fakes and the seller usually has clients ready to purchase. The Burny's, Greco's, Tokai's...ect, ect are more of an impersonator than a replica or fake. I intentionally left out Orville/OBG as they were owned by the Gibson Corp.

Just my 2 cents worth.

EDIT: Gibson doesn't have a problem with Slash's LP because they are making a crap load of money, and I'm sure Slash is as well....even now putting out a cheap Slash EPI.

[Solidasrock]

Originally Posted by River

I believe he was quoting someone else...

To your sarcastic questions, you'd be surprised what laws get enforced when there's publicity for the ambitious in it. But practically, the chances of prison time here are no greater than wherever you are. Confiscation of the goods, however, is a completely different story.

So the police in the USA monitor Ebay and Craigslist and are confiscating these guitars?

I doubt that one in a thousand fake guitars sold in the Canada is confiscated. The only fake guitars the authorities in Canada would care about would be a shipment from overseas that were being sold by organized means under the guise of a legitimate store....even then an investigation would only be instigated at the request of Fender, Gibson, etc.

A good 'chunk' of Epiphones, Gibsons, high end Ibanez guitars sold on Ebay, Craigslist etc, are fakes.

Should one sell fakes...no. But the consequences are minimal. Perhaps in the USA most of these Craiglist sellers are tracked down, arrested guitars confiscated, etc. but that is only in the USA.

[IndianScout]

some of the "relica's" made here on the forum are fantastic, but I do have a problem when they go as far as putting on the gibson logo and gibson like serial number..

I mean if you wanted a gibson buy one,

just my 2c

[moff40]

Originally Posted by Solidasrock

'''as well as do some prison time...."


Are you in the USA or Iran? Do prison time?

Everybody in the USA must be in prison for some offense or another.

One can question the ethics of replicas/fakes, etc. without being silly. Do you work for the Gibson propaganda department?

The odds of someone in my country, Canada, doing prison time for selling this gutar would be ZILCH. Our courts are based on common sense and no judge is going to treat selling a declared fake guitar the same as selling couterfeit $20 bills. In fact, in Canada and most western democracies, even couterfeiting $20 bills would probably not land you in prison if you had no previous criminal record.

Do the police in the USA really have nothing else to do? Judges bored? Prisons with empty cells?

Selling counterfeit items, whether declared as fake or not, is illegal in Canada, according to the Criminal Code, and is punishable by fines and\or prison time. That said, the actual ENFORCEMENT of those laws is dicey. Are the Mounties gonna knock on the door of ever 15-year-old selling a fake? Probably not.

[slapshot]

Originally Posted by moff40

We all know that handbuilt luthier replicas are fine instruments, where the Chinese knock-offs are usually anything but. But what differentiates a what we call a "replica" from what we call a "fake"?

To me a fake infers it is an inferior mass produced commercially available copy of another brands available products made cheaply and incorrectly solely for deceptive purposes whereas a replica infers a one off CORRECT private/non commercial copy made to EXACT specifications of the original.

[time6time]

I am totally against people selling them as authentic, however...
I don't like the excuse of "what if some kid or uneducated buyer gets scammed on a fake?".
If you are looking to spend more than a few hundred dollars on a guitar, do your research and know how to tell if it is real or not. If you get scam'd and spend $1000 on a fake, then shame on you, lesson learned.. Parents, don't let your kids spend $1000 on their own...

[GammyBird]

Originally Posted by time6time

I am totally against people selling them as authentic, however...
I don't like the excuse of "what if some kid or uneducated buyer gets scammed on a fake?".
If you are looking to spend more than a few hundred dollars on a guitar, do your research and know how to tell if it is real or not. If you get scam'd and spend $1000 on a fake, then shame on you, lesson learned.. Parents, don't let your kids spend $1000 on their own...

Well unfortunatly not everybody has the same resources we do.

[vintageJIM]

IMO if a guitar implies by a brand name, or by a model name, that it is something that it actually is not, then it is a fake period, no matter what price point and/or quality level it is attributed.
The only exception to this would be products that are ‘endorsed’ or ‘licensed’ by the original manufacturer and/or maker.

[River]

Originally Posted by moff40

Selling counterfeit items, whether declared as fake or not, is illegal in Canada, according to the Criminal Code, and is punishable by fines and\or prison time. That said, the actual ENFORCEMENT of those laws is dicey. Are the Mounties gonna knock on the door of ever 15-year-old selling a fake? Probably not.

Right. There's the legal aspect, which while it does not impose much risk, does leave you always wondering if someone out for fortune and glory will include you in some campaign to make a name for themselves. If you unknowingly purchase a stolen or fake guitar, your chances of being prosecuted (it's a crime in both case, knowing or not) are nil, zilch, nada, zero. The chances of your guitar being confiscated, for destruction or return to its rightful owner, are not as slim.

The other aspect is ethical. That's cut and dry, and not always against fakes, replicas, whatever. But it gets all cloudy when the guitar changes hands, even under the most honest of circumstances. The ethical original owner has completely lost control of what's done with it hence.

[Custom53]

Originally Posted by slapshot

To me a fake infers it is an inferior mass produced commercially available copy of another brands available products made cheaply and incorrectly solely for deceptive purposes whereas a replica infers a one off CORRECT private/non commercial copy made to EXACT specifications of the original.

and both are still counterfeit....

[Udonitron]

Originally Posted by Custom53

Exactly my point. I don't mind the Orvilles, Edwards, Tokias, Burnys. Yes, they have copied the basic design but aren't putting Gibson on the headstock..

Some Orville's (ObG) say Gibson on the headstock and are Gibson licensed.
That is the closest I would get to a Gibby again I think

[GammyBird]

Originally Posted by Udonitron

Some Orville's (ObG) say Gibson on the headstock and are Gibson licensed.
That is the closest I would get to a Gibby again I think

You don't need to see my pictures AGAIN do you Udonitron?

[Jessenoah]

it seems to me that replicas are designed for the person who wants to own a burst but cant afford one, as compared to the person who wants a gibson but cant afford one

if a 1959 les paul said gibson on the headstock, les paul model on the front of the headstock and a serial number on the back, the builder could build the greatest guitar in the world but it wouldnt be a "59" replica, it would just be an awesome les paul style guitar............

in my stubborn, narrow minded, and often incorrect opinion, "59 clones" are exactly what they are, guitars designed for page wanna be's who obsess over pointless details that no one in the crowd can recognize!



I guess my point is something like this
where overseas fakes are just pathetic imitations of killer guitars, replicas are intensely researched recreations of old guitars for the sake of recreating down to the closest possible detail

logos, and all!

[River]

Originally Posted by myspace.com/jessenoah

if a 1959 les paul said gibson on the headstock, les paul model on the front of the headstock and a serial number on the back, the builder could build the greatest guitar in the world but it wouldnt be a "59" replica, it would just be an awesome les paul style guitar............

You lost me.

When the accurate replicas start hitting the market as real deals, filling in the missing serial number gaps and what-not, then there will be trouble. Oh, wait...

[GammyBird]

Originally Posted by River

You lost me.

When the accurate replicas start hitting the market as real deals, filling in the missing serial number gaps and what-not, then there will be trouble. Oh, wait...

When this does happen, and it will, it will be up to the buyer who will be shelling out big bucks to educate themselves via websites such as this. Guitars such as this should have some sort of certification process to prove the authenticity. Same as if you were to buy a rare coin..never, never, never ever buy a rare coin which is not certified and registered!!! This I know from my years dealing coins.

[time6time]

Originally Posted by GammyBird

Well unfortunatly not everybody has the same resources we do.

hmmm...enough financial resources to buy one of the most expensive guitars on the market, but not enough resources to do some research?

So, some homeless man/kid scrapes together $1000 to buy his first gibson and it is a counterfeit, if only he had a computer to do some research he would've never had this problem...seriously, who doesn't have resources these days to do some research? Internet is free at the library.. if you can raise enough money to buy a gibson, you surely have a library in your town/city, or know someone who has some resources..

[Jessenoah]

Originally Posted by River

You lost me.

When the accurate replicas start hitting the market as real deals, filling in the missing serial number gaps and what-not, then there will be trouble. Oh, wait...

Originally Posted by myspace.com/jessenoah

if a 1959 les paul said gibson on the headstock, les paul model on the front of the headstock and a serial number on the back, the builder could build the greatest guitar in the world but it wouldnt be a "59" replica, it would just be an awesome les paul style guitar............

a 59 replica guitar is an exact recreation (or as close as humanly possible recreation) to a les paul from 1959!

I can only speak for myself, but why would I want to buy a guitar with all of the cool little details of an old 59 les paul, if I didnt get the details of the headstock right? why put any time @ all into making a guitar that looks just like the old ones, if you dont get the details right on the headstock of the guitar

to me its not as simple as the logo or not, it is about the historical accuracy, you wouldnt buy a remake of a WW2 M1 rifle if it had a laser scope, grenade launcher, and a retractable butt would you.............?

you wouldnt buy a 59 reissue from the custom shop if it had a BC rich shaped headstock would you............?

[DrChuck]

Originally Posted by Custom53

and both are still counterfeit....

Yes both are still counterfeits. Just because one is of better quality bears no special qualifications to be distinguished from the definition of "fake".