Firebird Purchase Advice

[Larry Mal]

I think you'll have to explain this. I do know that Firebird pickups aren't PAF humbuckers nor are they your typical mini-humbucker, but how are they not humbuckers?

I mean, here is the quote from the Gibson page about the instrument we are discussing directly:

" It retains the visionary "through-body" neck design that increases sustain and resonance, while upgrading the instrument's power with a pair of ceramic-magnet mini-humbucking pickups that look identical to the originals. "

[brokenarrow5]

just tried to get one on line via phone calls at GC and Mus Friend----- and the bastards won't give me the mothers day 15% off-- and trust me i have worked many killer deals and know my way around purchases--- i am sooo pissed off---- i called back more than once and got the same response--- and theyt didn't even try to offer me anything
wtf gibson?

[Dougie]

Originally Posted by Larry Mal

I think you'll have to explain this. I do know that Firebird pickups aren't PAF humbuckers nor are they your typical mini-humbucker, but how are they not humbuckers?

Firebird pickups are indeed humbuckers. The biggest difference in the firebird pickup and the mini humbucker can be explained thusly:

They both have two bobbins which are open in the middle, they have a slot in the center of the bobbin that on the mini humbucker, one slot is filled with a carbon steel blade that extends out the bottom of the bobbin and the other bobbin is open and the pole screws pass through it. There is a single bar magnet underneath the coils same as the standard full size humbucker, and it's held together by nothing but the cover soldered on to the baseplate.

The firebird pickup has the same two slotted bobbins as the mini humbucker, but the slots are filled with bar magnets, there is no magnet underneath the bobbins, some have a thin ferrous plate that fits under the magnets and it causes the magnetic field to act like a single horseshoe shaped magnet instead of two separate magnets. That part works like a charm, and adds a certain P-90ish character to the sound.

What cherrick is referring to, the vintage original '63-'65 firebird pickups had a very unique tone which is quite single coil sounding in it's own way. They don't growl like a PAF, and they have a lot of bite like a cool old '50s tele bridge pickup.

Another very critical part of the original Firebird pickup's tone is that unlike the PAF and also the early mini humbuckers that Gibson made for Epiphone (which were wound with 42ga plain enamel magnet wire), by the time Gibson began making Firebirds, and firebird pickups, they had switched to the orangeish poly wire that was used on the Patent Sticker humbuckers, which was notoriously thinner and more midrangey than the PAFs, some were obnoxiously so. Enter the Firebird pickup wound with the same orangeish wire, and now you see how the originals earned their reputation for a cutting edge tone in the hands of players like Johnny Winter, Stephen Stills, Eric Clapton, Dave Mason and others.

They were not the most user friendly guitars Gibson made due to their size and dynamics. They were very trebly with most amps, and back in the day before boutique amps and pedals, you had to work hard to find an amp that they paired well with. The Vox AC30 sounded great with a vintage firebird, the Marshall half stack would have people holding their ears while the tone could easily peel paint off the wall.

Allen Collins didn't like that sound, and chose to outfit his firebirds with a P-90 in the bridge because it was more rounded and warmer sounding. The custom pickup I made for the bridge of mine totally nails Allen's tone, without the 60Hz hum of course, and that's the very sound I was shooting for when I started development.

Modern/current firebird pickups are wound with either 43ga poly wire or 44ga wire to achieve the output they have. With their ceramic magnets I find them to be quite harsh and aggressive, pretty much all balls to the wall gritty trebly sound that is not at all pleasing to most players.

I love the guitars, but man it's like anything else, when it comes down to the pickups get something that YOU like and roll with it..

[cherrick]

Originally Posted by Dougie

Firebird pickups are indeed humbuckers. The biggest difference in the firebird pickup and the mini humbucker can be explained thusly:

They both have two bobbins which are open in the middle, they have a slot in the center of the bobbin that on the mini humbucker, one slot is filled with a carbon steel blade that extends out the bottom of the bobbin and the other bobbin is open and the pole screws pass through it. There is a single bar magnet underneath the coils same as the standard full size humbucker, and it's held together by nothing but the cover soldered on to the baseplate.

The firebird pickup has the same two slotted bobbins as the mini humbucker, but the slots are filled with bar magnets, there is no magnet underneath the bobbins, some have a thin ferrous plate that fits under the magnets and it causes the magnetic field to act like a single horseshoe shaped magnet instead of two separate magnets. That part works like a charm, and adds a certain P-90ish character to the sound.

What cherrick is referring to, the vintage original '63-'65 firebird pickups had a very unique tone which is quite single coil sounding in it's own way. They don't growl like a PAF, and they have a lot of bite like a cool old '50s tele bridge pickup.

Another very critical part of the original Firebird pickup's tone is that unlike the PAF and also the early mini humbuckers that Gibson made for Epiphone (which were wound with 42ga plain enamel magnet wire), by the time Gibson began making Firebirds, and firebird pickups, they had switched to the orangeish poly wire that was used on the Patent Sticker humbuckers, which was notoriously thinner and more midrangey than the PAFs, some were obnoxiously so. Enter the Firebird pickup wound with the same orangeish wire, and now you see how the originals earned their reputation for a cutting edge tone in the hands of players like Johnny Winter, Stephen Stills, Eric Clapton, Dave Mason and others.

They were not the most user friendly guitars Gibson made due to their size and dynamics. They were very trebly with most amps, and back in the day before boutique amps and pedals, you had to work hard to find an amp that they paired well with. The Vox AC30 sounded great with a vintage firebird, the Marshall half stack would have people holding their ears while the tone could easily peel paint off the wall.

Allen Collins didn't like that sound, and chose to outfit his firebirds with a P-90 in the bridge because it was more rounded and warmer sounding. The custom pickup I made for the bridge of mine totally nails Allen's tone, without the 60Hz hum of course, and that's the very sound I was shooting for when I started development.

Modern/current firebird pickups are wound with either 43ga poly wire or 44ga wire to achieve the output they have. With their ceramic magnets I find them to be quite harsh and aggressive, pretty much all balls to the wall gritty trebly sound that is not at all pleasing to most players.

I love the guitars, but man it's like anything else, when it comes down to the pickups get something that YOU like and roll with it..

Dougie has really been working these pickups so I salute him and defer to his expertise. My understanding is that the mini-humbucker architecture differs from the original F'bird design, and that the signal in the original architecture does not involve a signal that travels in opposite directions at the same time. But I'm sure Dougie knows.

[brokenarrow5]

still pissed-- no firebird for me today--

[DPhillips]

Originally Posted by brokenarrow5

sounds good--- i don't have big hands-- but i hear the neck is thin right?
i prefer slim 60's necks-
if anyone sees any great deals, hit me up
i am searching-

The neck on mine is thin, much thinner than my R9.

[brokenarrow5]

damn, gotta decide whether to just bite the bullet or not

[Larry Mal]

You still deciding on this? Life is short... you'll never miss the money whether you get 15% off or what in a little while.

I don't know, it was easy for me, I guess. I wanted a Firebird since I became aware of their existence. I want more- and I have two!

But really, though, I was going to buy a used one but they are priced pretty much at what the new ones are, so I just bought a brand new one. They are rare and seem to hold their value, so get it, and if on the off chance you don't like owning it, sell it. You will probably be able to get $1300-1400 after a year so you'll be out what, a couple hundred or so? I wouldn't recommend this with most guitars, but not every guitar holds its value so well. Say what you will, but this isn't some lame mass produced Stratocaster or something, it'll be worth a fair amount if you need to sell it.

But you won't.

[Serial]

LOVE mine and the neck is freaking huge. 99 Historic FB1. I had a really nice 1991 FBV and that had a chunky neck too. Go with the banjo tuners-nothing wrong with them. Studios are ugly!

[brokenarrow5]

Originally Posted by Serial

LOVE mine and the neck is freaking huge. 99 Historic FB1. I had a really nice 1991 FBV and that had a chunky neck too. Go with the banjo tuners-nothing wrong with them. Studios are ugly!

awesome pic-- thanks for the encouragement---

[Dougie]

Originally Posted by Serial

LOVE mine and the neck is freaking huge. 99 Historic FB1. I had a really nice 1991 FBV and that had a chunky neck too. Go with the banjo tuners-nothing wrong with them. Studios are ugly!

Damn that is one flat out seckzie bird! Love it!

When I got mine I was sorta thinking about a blue one like that too, it would have worked well with nickel parts.

Something about the big necks that needs to be said.. I'm not sure how to go about being able to tell which (modern/current/recent, not vintage) years had bigger neck profiles, but yours and mine are custom shop historic '63 FBI reissues. Mine has a huge neck too. Almost wanted to shave it at first but I got used to it, and play the hell out of it now without a thought about shaving it.

The tone and response of a bright solid body are extremely affected by the mass of the neck. Take a swamp ash tele body and put one of them full boattail Warmoth necks on it. Oh man sheesh you talk about spank? Boatloads of it! Firebird necks that are big are not wide, they are deep like a big U shape, a baseball bat sawed in half if you will. This puts a lot of people off cause they are hard to play and they definitely take some growing into to really like them but... That same spanking tone that you get from the mongrel tele with the baseball bat boattail neck? Lives in that firebird! THAT, is a tone you will NOT get from swapping whoever's pickups into one!

This part about Firebirds, is mostly an unspoken tone secret that's right in your face when you got one with a real meaty neck and it starts to grow on you...

cherrick, I'm not sure about the thing about the current not traveling in opposite directions at the same time, seems like I vaguely remember reading something about that in a Guitar Player magazine from the 80s or something like that when they were talking about firebird pickups, might have been in a Stephen Stills interview, can't remember now, but.. For a pickup to be humbucking, at least a Gibson humbucker, the coils are both wound in the same direction, and the beginning of the coils are connected to either the braided lead wire or the ground, and the end of the coils are joined together which gives it the series connection. Therefore the path that the current takes would be traveling from the beginning to the end of the first coil, and from the end to the beginning of the second coil, which makes the current travel in reverse through the second coil so there's your reverse polarity, which isn't really polarity at all, but reverse current flow through that coil along with opposite magnetic polarity from the first coil, makes it cancel hum. If you flip the leads of the second coil around, or you wind one coil CW and the other CCW it won't be a humbucker and it will hum like any single coil.

[CRobbins]

The neck on my FB III is quite thin compared to my R9 LP.

[brokenarrow5]

alright! i did it!
i got a sunburst firebird on it's way to me--
i bought it mint used from GC for like $1430-- figured i would roll the dice and save a few bucks--
i can return it if it is junk or not right--
my guy at GC who has been awesome to me for years said they will set it up and get her rollin for me no charge--- so that's cool
so anyway thanks for all the advice----
FIREBIRD BITCHES!!!!!!

[CRobbins]

The width of the neck of both R9 LP, and my FB III are the same 1 11/16" at the nut, and just a hair over 2" at the 12th fret. It's the thickness, or shape of the neck that is thinner on the FB III...

[CRobbins]

Originally Posted by brokenarrow5

alright! i did it!
i got a sunburst firebird on it's way to me--
i bought it mint used from GC for like $1430-- figured i would roll the dice and save a few bucks--
i can return it if it is junk or not right--
my guy at GC who has been awesome to me for years said they will set it up and get her rollin for me no charge--- so that's cool
so anyway thanks for all the advice----
FIREBIRD BITCHES!!!!!!

Right on!

[brokenarrow5]

It's on!!!!!!!!!!!!

[circusboy28]

Nothing feels like a Firebird, it almost feels like you're playing a bass they feel so big in your arms. I'd always advise trying before you buy if it's at all possible - and especially so with a 'Bird!

[mr_mer]

Originally Posted by brokenarrow5

u think it is versatile enough to gig a whole set or 2 of classic rock covers, maybe a little country thrown in?

Classic rock? I have played Mississippi Queen, China Grove, School's Out, Crossroads.... even Albatross and Time with it. The Firebird can do that and more.

[mr_mer]

Originally Posted by brokenarrow5

alright! i did it!
i got a sunburst firebird on it's way to me--
i bought it mint used from GC for like $1430-- figured i would roll the dice and save a few bucks--
i can return it if it is junk or not right--
my guy at GC who has been awesome to me for years said they will set it up and get her rollin for me no charge--- so that's cool
so anyway thanks for all the advice----
FIREBIRD BITCHES!!!!!!

CONGRATZ!

[IWonMyFirebirdx]

Originally Posted by Serial

LOVE mine and the neck is freaking huge. 99 Historic FB1. I had a really nice 1991 FBV and that had a chunky neck too. Go with the banjo tuners-nothing wrong with them. Studios are ugly!

Firebird I, droool.

[Larry Mal]

Congratulations! I am glad you got the 'Bird. What model is it? Put up pictures when you have her- and congratulations again! You have just joined a relatively small club of Firebird aficionados.

[brokenarrow5]

2010 sunburst reverse

[Larry Mal]

Hey, that's what I got! I hope we don't show up at the same party wearing the same Firebird someday. But you are going to love it! I know you've seen pictures, but when you hold her in your arms, you'll see.

Awesome!

[cherrick]

Originally Posted by brokenarrow5

2010 sunburst reverse

Assuming Firebird V.

So, if stock it will have the Ceramic pickups. Very hot, very over-wound-y, lots of growl and drive but very different from the AlNiCo original or retro-boutique pickups.

The volume knobs will be located in the same relative position as the (modern) Les Paul, i.e. different from the vintage '64 etc.

And the knobs will not be gold like the original/vintage.

Enjoy it but know that with some upgrades that F'bird can become over-the-top-killer.

[cherrick]

Originally Posted by Dougie

...
cherrick, I'm not sure about the thing about the current not traveling in opposite directions at the same time, seems like I vaguely remember reading something about that in a Guitar Player magazine from the 80s or something like that when they were talking about firebird pickups, might have been in a Stephen Stills interview, can't remember now, but.. For a pickup to be humbucking, at least a Gibson humbucker, the coils are both wound in the same direction, and the beginning of the coils are connected to either the braided lead wire or the ground, and the end of the coils are joined together which gives it the series connection. Therefore the path that the current takes would be traveling from the beginning to the end of the first coil, and from the end to the beginning of the second coil, which makes the current travel in reverse through the second coil so there's your reverse polarity, which isn't really polarity at all, but reverse current flow through that coil along with opposite magnetic polarity from the first coil, makes it cancel hum. If you flip the leads of the second coil around, or you wind one coil CW and the other CCW it won't be a humbucker and it will hum like any single coil.

Dougie,
So same direction but 180 degrees out of phase? Is that correct?

[brokenarrow5]

yep, i am going to get her first and then get some upgrades going as needed
i always put pio caps in all my guitars, so that will be first, and it's cheap quick and easy
is there a concensus on which pio caps for this model firebird?

[brokenarrow5]

got some 0.22 pio caps comin from jonesy----

[cherrick]

Pandora, open the box

[brokenarrow5]

guess what just arrived?

[Larry Mal]

Awesome! Let us know how you love her, and put up some pictures as soon as possible.

I was surprised at the first un-amplified strum, how acoustic and lively it was. I've since found that to be the case on most of my Gibsons, though... it was only the Les Paul Studio models I've owned and still own that are so dark and un-resonant.

Firebirds are great!