Pancake Body Reasoning?

[duane v]

Originally Posted by Cookie-boy

You're right, Duane. It's because, in my opinion, they are the best. But I have to say from a branding point of view Gibson has done very well.

they are slick when it comes to branding.....

This is just an opinion, but I think Gibson fragmented themselves a bit in the 70's especially from a production/manufacturing stand-point. They were still trying to make guitars using 1950's manufacturing thinking, when other companies were moving into Demings manufacturing processes. I think Gibson was truly caught right in the middle of what they were trying/hoping to achieve with closing down Kalamazoo, while trying to get Nashville up to par, which I'm sure created a over-head nightmare.

It's pretty amazing that Gibson was able to come out of it.

[LoKi]

Don't forget, Norlin saved Gibson from filing bankruptcy. You can't take a business that isn't making money and start making money with it unless you cut corners somewhere.

We've all been programmed by Gibson's viral marketing over the years... Celebrity's and our favourite axe slingers posted in every magazine, in every music video toting their best Les Paul. Catchy slogans, always touting the heritage and American Pride factor.... The Gibson era AFTER Norling focused on marketing. During Norlin, it focused on saving a company that was about to close it's doors.

They succeeded until the early 80's when their decision to close Kalamazoo and lay everyone off, and to keep making traditional style guitars that were now 30 years old in design versus pointy, flashy neon colour bullshit nearly killed them again.

I can respect the fact that Norlin didn't bend and kill the Les Paul line in the early 80's. Oh! Henry used this to his advantage when he took over the marketing of Gibson and started the whole 'Only a Gibson is good enough' days and constantly talk about preserving the tradition of the Les Paul and all of Gibson's instruments... Even though he's made some bad R&D decisions in the last few years... Prices went up and quality went waaaaaay down.

Anyway, I'm not typing a book here. Lets just say that Norlin saved the day and kept Gibson's doors open as long as they could in a time when people thought rock music was going to be dead. Oh! Henry has turned Gibson into a huge corporation, and churned out mass produced, crap quality instruments that have flooded the market, and now they are feeling the pinch.

What will happen tomorrow? Who knows. I will not be buying a 'new' Les Paul for a long, long time. Second hand though....

[duane v]

Originally Posted by LoKi

Oh! Henry has turned Gibson into a huge corporation, and churned out mass produced, crap quality instruments that have flooded the market, and now they are feeling the pinch.

I'm going to respectfully disagree.

I was able to purchase three new Gibsons this year for under a combined $1900, and all three are very solid instruments. The quality on all three exceeded my expectations for fit and finish. Certainly I was a bit apprehensive considering I hadn't purchased a new Gibson since 1981, but after doing a set-up on all three instruments, we couldn't be happier.

[dennistruckdriver]

I love pancakes....

[LoKi]

Originally Posted by duane v

I'm going to respectfully disagree.

I was able to purchase three new Gibsons this year for under a combined $1900, and all three are very solid instruments. The quality on all three exceeded my expectations for fit and finish. Certainly I was a bit apprehensive considering I hadn't purchased a new Gibson since 1981, but after doing a set-up on all three instruments, we couldn't be happier.

There are some great ones out there, no doubt! I'm buddies with the rep for Western Canada and I've laid hands on most of the Pauls that have come into this neck of the woods and the ones that make it to the shelves are the good ones... The ones that get sent back faaaar out number them unfortunately.

There are just too many being made, and not being sold. Poor choice, considering the price bracket. If you make something 'expensive' its also got to be 'exclusive' to justify the price increase. Not this 'limited run of 250,000' BS like they did with the '59 anniversary.

They should have made 1 for every one actually made in '59, if they respected the heritage and planned to charge $5000+ for it. Just my humble opinion but I've played a lot of Lesters and you wouldn't believe how many arrive here with twisted necks, awful buzzing, pickups not even soldered in!!! It's insanity.

[BoxyBrown22]

If everyone thinks that Norlin was penny pinching why did they put a burst on the neck, back of the body, and side of the headstock? Isn't that time consuming and expensive to do?

[LoKi]

Originally Posted by BoxyBrown22

If everyone thinks that Norlin was penny pinching why did they put a burst on the neck, back of the body, and side of the headstock? Isn't that time consuming and expensive to do?

Not really. The thing is already hung up for paint anyway, and it means less tape. Tape is more expensive than paint, I'm sure.

[dspelman]

Originally Posted by blakem

If Agile didn't change the bottom horn and make it shorter, I would probably have a few

As it turns out, that shorter horn gives me better access to the upper frets; I catch the side of my hand on the inside of the LP's bottom horn now and again until I get it turned properly. Not so on the Agiles.

[dspelman]

Originally Posted by LoKi

Of course the wood and shapes affect the tonality of the instrument, but if you are talking pure, usable sustain from an amplified instrument, regardless of tone, how much do you actually need access to?

Depends what you're playing, I guess. Fernandes (and Sustainiac) sell enough sustainers that *someone* out there must be using them. Adrian Belew, for one. Edge. Vai. Schon. more. Sustain adds a more vocal flavor to the instrument when soloing, and almost a keyboard type sound when you're chording. And you can get that sound from a clean guitar without cranking it up to tinnitus-production levels. Otherwise it's gain city, compressors that sound funny or loud amps and finding the perfect place to stand while the amp vibrates the strings (and your liver).

For whatever reason, pure usable sustain was important to people buying guitars in those days, and that's what the ads were all about.

[shtdaprdtr]

Originally Posted by duane v

I'm not sure about the last few post that hint Gibson had a disregard for making a quality instrument, or the mighty dollar was the tail-wagger, especially back in the 70's and 80's. Musicians that were purchasing Gibsons or any guitars back in those days actually played them before purchasing, unlike today where people will purchase a $2000 plus instrument based on only seeing an image of it. So if there was a quality issue with a certain instrument back in the 70's or 80's, you can bet that it didn't get purchased, or you would get a smoking deal on it..... In other words, people today are more likely to get sucked into something based only on sizzle, rather than the bacon.

Gibsons survival depends on repeat customers, so there must be a certain level of quality today as in any other era at Gibson to keep customers coming back. I would dare to say that most within this thread has more than one Gibson in their stable??? And if so, there must be something bringing us back, especially when we can procure 10 Agile Les Pauls for the same price as one Gibby LPC..

yes but agile wasnt around in the early 70's..or many other alternatives for that matter. Plus....Asian guitars had a bad stigma attached to them back then...gibson could shit in the pickup cavities and noone would have a choice...especially when people were waiting for the les paul to come back.

[shtdaprdtr]

Originally Posted by BoxyBrown22

If everyone thinks that Norlin was penny pinching why did they put a burst on the neck, back of the body, and side of the headstock? Isn't that time consuming and expensive to do?

not if youre trying to cover something up ? like the pancake for one...a sloppy neck joint ?.....

[FLICKOFLASH]

Pancakes bodies was for sound enhancement. Not cutting corners. It has to do with physics of wood. Wood is constantly in motion expanding a contracting. The dimensions of the body can expand & contract up to 3/8 of a inch depending on climatic humities & pressure. When two or more pieces of wood are joined layered it creates opposing forces thus you have tensions of those pieces trying to move against one another. Regular Les Paul have this too with the mahogany backs & maple tops. When wood vibrates you are actually losing frequencies of the sound of the strings. This is why the type of wood changes the sounds dark or bright.

[duane v]

Originally Posted by shtdaprdtr

yes but agile wasnt around in the early 70's..or many other alternatives for that matter. Plus....Asian guitars had a bad stigma attached to them back then...gibson could shit in the pickup cavities and noone would have a choice...especially when people were waiting for the les paul to come back.

Well I guess I've been pretty fortunate not to have Gibson "shit" in any of the cavities of my Gibsons that I've purchased.

Speaking from my experience with Gibson products, at a minimum I've received nothing but above average products from Gibson, and no doubt will be procuring more in the future.

[LoKi]

Originally Posted by dspelman

Depends what you're playing, I guess. Fernandes (and Sustainiac) sell enough sustainers that *someone* out there must be using them. Adrian Belew, for one. Edge. Vai. Schon. more. Sustain adds a more vocal flavor to the instrument when soloing, and almost a keyboard type sound when you're chording. And you can get that sound from a clean guitar without cranking it up to tinnitus-production levels. Otherwise it's gain city, compressors that sound funny or loud amps and finding the perfect place to stand while the amp vibrates the strings (and your liver).

For whatever reason, pure usable sustain was important to people buying guitars in those days, and that's what the ads were all about.

The sustainer is a cool device for sure, and it adds that octave harmonic to a note when a guitar/amp might not be able to do it on it's own, but as a device it adds another gain stage to the electric setup. It doesn't do anything when the guitar is unplugged. I agree that you can never have too much sustain but I wonder about the quest for it, and how much is actually usable in the type of music you play.

I agree with what Flick posted above. The maple and mahogany mix changes the tonality of the instrument for sure. All mahogany guitars are dark sounding and can almost be perceived as 'muddy' sounding. The extra maple made for a brighter guitar with a thicker bottom end then the other guitars that were on the market at the time.

[vortexx]

The ULTIMATE Norlin pancake
walnut top
maple
walnut
maple
walnut bottom


maybe the designer was craving some maple walnut ice cream

[lp_junkie]

Originally Posted by Cookie-boy

Suit - "How can we sell this to the public?"

Boss - "We can sell anything to the public provided it says Gibson on the headstock!"

Suit - "Fuck yeah! Hadn't thought of that!"

The truth has never been assembled into sentences so eloquently.

[Mark H]

Where's my blueberrys, buckwheat? ahh a pancake joke?

I don't know about that cost cutting disbelief??
Remember the '70s? Well kinda?
The introduction of plastic...or at least where it should not have been.
Cars got so chincy that a country that we levaled 25 years before started the push that killed the American car.
Fender went to using 3 bolts to attach their necks...some bean counter figured that if we save $1 per guitar and we sell 1 million guitars....,BAM we MADE 1 Million dollars??
In bussines this is called "saving your way into a profit"
Homes even got cheepo, where there was plywood now there was that chipbord crap?

Even the pancake bodys were inconsistent, right, some were 3 layers some 5?
What about the necks? A 3 piece neck...come on that is crap.

Just my take on the loss of American industrial/ mfg. power. Some jack ass that finished 3 yrs at the North Dakota school of buss. got to the CEO position at Norlin and thought a guitar was something that you pulled off your wifes leg at the wedding reception.

In fact there would never have been a Kramer or Jackson guitar if it were not for the flapjack!

[1959burst]

Originally Posted by captain tightpants

.

The other explanation i'm familiar with, and the one that seems more plausible, is that gibson was having a tough time finding thick enough slabs of mahogany at the time, and cross-banding was utilized to enable them to use thinner chunks of wood.

The weight issue, i believe, is related to the lumber supply problems, not a conscious decision to make the guitar heavier.

bingo we have a winner!

[lineboss58]

I suppose many here will be to young to remember but gibson in the early 70s were in big trouble, this was just before the norlin takeover. Weight issues were not a broblem before then but i have a few late 70s norlin LPs and they are true back breakers, i mean crazy heavy. Remember mahogany planking is a lot cheaper than big mahogany billets, intresting that this method of construction was dropped not long after the norlin suits stepped in.

[BeBop]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

Pancakes bodies was for sound enhancement. Not cutting corners.

Thats what Tokai say's about their SEB series anyway.

????????


Concerning the LP Customs from the Norlin era , what woods were used and were they pancaked ?

[BeBop]

I just wanted to add that matterless to Tokai's SEB thing, i beleive it was the bean counters behind the Norlin pancakes----FWIW .

[blakem]

What ever the reason they did it, my Norlin Rocks and sustains forever.. I love it.

[LoKi]

Originally Posted by BeBop

Thats what Tokai say's about their SEB series anyway.

????????


Concerning the LP Customs from the Norlin era , what woods were used and were they pancaked ?

Pancakes were stopped around '77 - '78. Then Gibson went back to making Customs the old fashioned way. Solid wood, no holes, no weight relief. That lasted until the 'swiss cheese' weight relief began in '82. Every Gibson since '82 other than the Reissues have had weight relief in some form.

[Splattle101]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

Pancakes bodies was for sound enhancement. Not cutting corners. It has to do with physics of wood. Wood is constantly in motion expanding a contracting. The dimensions of the body can expand & contract up to 3/8 of a inch depending on climatic humities & pressure. When two or more pieces of wood are joined layered it creates opposing forces thus you have tensions of those pieces trying to move against one another. Regular Les Paul have this too with the mahogany backs & maple tops. When wood vibrates you are actually losing frequencies of the sound of the strings. This is why the type of wood changes the sounds dark or bright.

That was what I had heard, too. And after they discontinued the 'pancake', didn't they move the cross grain piece of maple under the maple top? So it's still there, but not visible unless you look into the pickup cavities.