Decreased break-angle?

[MrRoundel]

Greetings Norlin brethren:

I just had my fine '74 Norlin Std. refretted with some frets that are considerably taller than the stock ones. Prior to the refret, the guitar was a virtual fretless wonder. When I picked the guitar up, I noticed that the tech/luthier had wrapped the strings around the tail-piece from the front, rather than a direct pass through from the bottom. He said he did this to cut down on the angle to the harmonica bridge, that sometimes the strings rubbed on the bottom of the harmonica. I had always heard that a large break-angle was good, and am wondering if he had to do it because of the new fret height, coupled with the large horizontal dimension of the harmonica bridge. Anybody have any thought on what the decreased break-angle means, if anything, to tone, playability, string life, etc.?

Note: I would have kept with some shorter frets ( I think I like them better) , but I have a problem where my fingernails hit the fretboard, especially on certain open chords, and it wears into the rosewood. I got the bigger frets to defend the rosewood from my nails. (No, I can't cut my nails shorter.).

[Xavier_32]

Do a search on the main forum for topwrap.

[Edit:] To answer the question, topwrapping allows you to put the tail piece flat against the bottom of the guitar without the strings touching the back of the bridge. The supposed effects are better tone, better sustain, and lighter feeling strings. The real effects are that your guitar looks different, and anyone who tells you otherwise either has super sensitive hearing better than 99% of humans or is suffering from emperors new clothes syndrome. The only other effect I can think of is that you'll have less downward tension on your bridge, which should keep your bridge from collapsing for a longer period of time. This could also be accomplished by simply raising your tail piece.

I don't remember who's signature this comes from, but it's something along the lines of "Long tenon, short tenon... once the drummer comes in, there's no fucking difference."

[Boleskinehouse]

Basically the ONLY reason to topwrap is to avoid the strings resting on the back of the bridge.. Which can eventually lead to warping and collapse like Xavier said.. It can also cause string breakage...

The only guitars I topwrap are those with Nashville bridges with too steep an angle.

[jsadctnfn1]

I just raise the tailpiece on my guitars until the high e string does NOT touch the back of the bridge (also helps relieve some of the string tension). Pretty much what Xavier and Boleskin just said. There is no NEED to topwrap your tailpiece unless you like the look of it slammed to the guitar.

[Boleskinehouse]

Yes, that's part of it too.

[Mildperv]

The lower break angle does relieve some string tension which helps make it feel "slinkier." The problem here is that you may get the strings moving back and forth too much in the saddles. You want the nut to take most, if not all, of the sliding.

[lazz]

theres more of the string making connection with the bridge when it's topwrapped how can that not increase sustain?

[Mildperv]

To me, it's a trade off. You're decreasing the tension - and therefore less of the vibration transfer through the bridge, but adding some to the stoptail. I topwrap most of my LPs.

[jsadctnfn1]

Originally Posted by lazz

theres more of the string making connection with the bridge when it's topwrapped how can that not increase sustain?

I've tried top wrapping and did not notice any difference. I had great sustain to begin with and I don't plan on ever hitting one chord and then just standing there for over an hour.

How much sustain do you actually need?

[dwagar]

the ABR1 bridge on my '74 Custom was collapsed (bows down a tad in the center). After straightening it, I've topwrapped that guitar ever since.

[River]

Originally Posted by lazz

theres more of the string making connection with the bridge when it's topwrapped how can that not increase sustain?

Because more of the string vibration can be absorbed by the guitar?

Regardless, the percentages we're dealing with here are infinitesimal.

[J.T.]

Originally Posted by Mildperv

To me, it's a trade off. You're decreasing the tension - and therefore less of the vibration transfer through the bridge, but adding some to the stoptail. I topwrap most of my LPs.

You certain on this? My instinct tells me that for a given string tuned to a given note, it will be the same tension regardless of how it comes off the tailpiece or what angle exists between the TP & the bridge. Essentially that's what the tuning peg does is sets tension. But I could be wrong. Myself, I don't topwrap, and I try to get as shallow an angle as possible between the TP and the bridge - not because of tension, but because a steeper angle increases the chances of a sharp saddle edge cutting into the string and breaking it.

[ext1jdh]

I topwrapped and can't hear any difference at all, but it feels better on my right hand. That's what she said.

[Mildperv]

Originally Posted by J.T.

You certain on this? My instinct tells me that for a given string tuned to a given note, it will be the same tension regardless of how it comes off the tailpiece or what angle exists between the TP & the bridge. Essentially that's what the tuning peg does is sets tension.

I agree 100% on this. The difference is in the tension from the bride to the stoptail. If you have more wire wrapped around the stoptail you will have less tension than a normally strung stoptail because that additional wire length can also stretch

[BillB1960]

[Xavier_32]

Originally Posted by J.T.

You certain on this? My instinct tells me that for a given string tuned to a given note, it will be the same tension regardless of how it comes off the tailpiece or what angle exists between the TP & the bridge. Essentially that's what the tuning peg does is sets tension. But I could be wrong. Myself, I don't topwrap, and I try to get as shallow an angle as possible between the TP and the bridge - not because of tension, but because a steeper angle increases the chances of a sharp saddle edge cutting into the string and breaking it.

If your guitar was 10 feet long, and the tailpiece and tuners were at polar opposite ends of this 10 foot guitar, but the neck was the same scale and the bridge was in the same place it currently is on your LP, wouldn't your strings have more tension when tuned to the same pitch? The scale is the same, the pitch is the same, but the overall string length is longer behind the bridge and before the tail piece. To exercise the change here, try raising your tailpiece and tell me if your pitch lowers.

Topwrapping, much like just raising your tailpiece, will make the strings feel lighter because it makes the strings shorter just a tiny bit. However, I still feel that topwrapping doesn't make them feel much lighter because the strings are also getting a little longer by travelling the extra distance to the top of the bridge instead of to the front of the bridge at the holes for the ball ends.

[Edit:] Here's another way to think about it. Think of the nut as the end of the string, and the tail piece as the end of the other string. Now think of the bridge as where you're fretting the string to get the note you want. If you moved the tail piece closer without moving where you're 'fretting' the string the pitch would lower, and you would have to tighten the string. This new, shorter string, regardless of where your 'fret' was, would still have less tension than it did before, which is why 10s on an LP feel way lighter than 10s on a Strat. The overall scale has changed, and where the open 'fret' (the bridge) is hasn't.

[J.T.]

Originally Posted by Xavier_32

If your guitar was 10 feet long, and the tailpiece and tuners were at polar opposite ends of this 10 foot guitar, but the neck was the same scale and the bridge was in the same place it currently is on your LP, wouldn't your strings have more tension when tuned to the same pitch? The scale is the same, the pitch is the same, but the overall string length is longer behind the bridge and before the tail piece. To exercise the change here, try raising your tailpiece and tell me if your pitch lowers.

Topwrapping, much like just raising your tailpiece, will make the strings feel lighter because it makes the strings shorter just a tiny bit. However, I still feel that topwrapping doesn't make them feel much lighter because the strings are also getting a little longer by travelling the extra distance to the top of the bridge instead of to the front of the bridge at the holes for the ball ends.

[Edit:] Here's another way to think about it. Think of the nut as the end of the string, and the tail piece as the end of the other string. Now think of the bridge as where you're fretting the string to get the note you want. If you moved the tail piece closer without moving where you're 'fretting' the string the pitch would lower, and you would have to tighten the string. This new, shorter string, regardless of where your 'fret' was, would still have less tension than it did before, which is why 10s on an LP feel way lighter than 10s on a Strat. The overall scale has changed, and where the open 'fret' (the bridge) is hasn't.

It's an interesting supposition. I'm not convinced, but I'm not saying you're wrong, either. The thing that bothers me about it is, the pitch of the string is not determined by the distance between the tuner and the tailpiece, but the distance between the nut and the saddle. So you could increase the distance between the TP & the tuners, but as long as you have the same distance between the nut & saddle, and the same thickness of string, then you'd have to create the same tension to get the same note. You're correct on the distance changing tone - just not where it matters. Now, if you increase the distance between the TP & the saddle, would it decrease the tension on that specific length of the string? You might think yes, but I'm inclined to think no. As a string gets tightened and loosened it glides over both the nut and the saddle, so logically I think that means the same tension applies both between them and outside of them - because if it didn't you'd pull the string apart (which is essentially what happens when a string get caught on the saddle and too much tension is applied, either by strumming the guitar or tightening it with the tuner). Anyhow, maybe we need to get the Science Guy involved. This is getting way past my depth in physics, lol.

[Xavier_32]

Originally Posted by J.T.

ISo you could increase the distance between the TP & the tuners, but as long as you have the same distance between the nut & saddle, and the same thickness of string, then you'd have to create the same tension to get the same note. You're correct on the distance changing tone - just not where it matters.

I do understand what you're saying here, I'm imagining it like if you were to pull the tailpiece further along and wanted to keep the same pitch on any string, you'd have to add more string and keep the same tension (in my head I'm picturing a spindle of string rolling out in front of the tail piece.) But for some reason, it really does change the tension.

Here, I just tried this to see if it worked, try it yourself. Slam your tail piece all the way to the bottom of the guitar (if it isn't already there) and feel the tension when tuned to E. Try bending a full step at the 7th fret on your G string. Now raise the tail piece as high as you can without losing downward force on the bridge and tune to E again. Try bending a whole step at the 7th fret on the G string again. I guarantee you'll feel the difference.

All that being said, I'm still of the thought that the difference in string feel between top-wrapping and stringing through is infinitesimal.

[Ermghoti]

Originally Posted by Xavier_32

If your guitar was 10 feet long, and the tailpiece and tuners were at polar opposite ends of this 10 foot guitar, but the neck was the same scale and the bridge was in the same place it currently is on your LP, wouldn't your strings have more tension when tuned to the same pitch? The scale is the same, the pitch is the same, but the overall string length is longer behind the bridge and before the tail piece. To exercise the change here, try raising your tailpiece and tell me if your pitch lowers.

Nope. A given length of string in the same diameter can generate only one pitch at a given tension. The nut and bridge generate the vibrating mass that generates the pitch, the lengths on either side of the fixed points do not factor into the pitch of the ringing note. Raising your tailpiece will stretch the string, raising it's tension and pitch. Raise it all you like, return it to the same tension. it will always be the same pitch.

Originally Posted by Xavier_32

Topwrapping, much like just raising your tailpiece, will make the strings feel lighter because it makes the strings shorter just a tiny bit. However, I still feel that topwrapping doesn't make them feel much lighter because the strings are also getting a little longer by travelling the extra distance to the top of the bridge instead of to the front of the bridge at the holes for the ball ends.

This is just plain contradictory. I have no idea how to follow your claim that top-wrapping makes the string length longer and shorter simultaneously. In fact, none of the examples you cite make the string shorter. Also, making the overall length greater of the string could result in a lighter feel, in contrast to what you suggest.

Originally Posted by Xavier_32

[Edit:] Here's another way to think about it. Think of the nut as the end of the string, and the tail piece as the end of the other string. Now think of the bridge as where you're fretting the string to get the note you want. If you moved the tail piece closer without moving where you're 'fretting' the string the pitch would lower, and you would have to tighten the string. This new, shorter string, regardless of where your 'fret' was, would still have less tension than it did before, which is why 10s on an LP feel way lighter than 10s on a Strat. The overall scale has changed, and where the open 'fret' (the bridge) is hasn't.

Again, by moving the tailpiece, you're changing tension. A LP has less tension than a Strat, because the Scale length on the Strat ist 1 3/4" longer. Moving the tailpiece will have no affect on the tension of a note of a given pitch with a given string diameter and vibrating length.

If the string rings at the same pitch, the nut-to-bridge tension MUST be the same. It's elementary physics. The difference in perceived tension, if not psychosomatic, is due to the extra sting length, which gives you an extra bit of ductile steel to stretch.

What is rarely mentioned, is any method of reducing tension will also, invariably and mandatorily, require a larger motion to create a given bend or vibrato effect. A heavy string is harder to bend, but changes more in pitch with the same deflection as a lighter string. A longer overall string (top-wrapped or string-through) has a longer length of steel to stretch, but again, will need to be stretched a proportionately greater distance to achieve the same pitch bend as the shorter length.

There is no free lunch.

[sangandongo]

Originally Posted by jsadctnfn1

i've tried top wrapping and did not notice any difference. I had great sustain to begin with and i don't plan on ever hitting one chord and then just standing there for over an hour.

How much sustain do you actually need?

all of it!

[River]

Sustain is so '90s. We've moved past that and are now seeking "bloom".

[nwobhm]

Originally Posted by BillB1960

You Tube

You Tube

[dwagar]

Originally Posted by River

Sustain is so '90s. We've moved past that and are now seeking "bloom".

[EvLectric]

Regardless to all the advantages/disadvantages, your tech should have asked & discussed this with you before doing it, especially after a major thing like a refret.

[MrRoundel]

Originally Posted by EvLectric

Regardless to all the advantages/disadvantages, your tech should have asked & discussed this with you before doing it, especially after a major thing like a refret.

Yup, that's sort of what I was thinking. Overall, he did nice work on the guitar so I don't want to give him too much grief. However, taking liberties with such things, without a phone call, is a bit irksome. I may change it back when I put the next set of strings on the guitar. Thanks for your input.
BTW: I'm not seeing much of a consensus on the wrap-around issue. So, I guess it's not all bad anyway.

[Boleskinehouse]

What's funny to me is that you guys are going all scientific over it. The guitar either needs a wrap or a raise. That is all.

[MrRoundel]

O.K., so the more I read about this top-wrapping issue, along with inspecting the tailpiece/bridge/action relationship, the more I think that the luthier/tech had no choice but to top-wrap. Is it possible that when Jimmy Page, and others, were top-wrapping their tailpieces, that it was due to their wanting tall frets, and their tech top-wrapped to accommodate? I'm thinking that the guy who refretted my guitar with frets that he says are .053" tall, that he could not get a standard setup without a top-wrap. Since I have the harmonica bridge, with it's larger surface area extending further towards the tailpiece, he may have been forced to top-wrap to avoid detrimental string:bridge contact.
There is something that I liked a little more about the tone before the frets were redone, so I'll probably go back to conventional string placement when I restring in the future. Before I do, I'll take height measurements of the tailpiece and bridge posts so I can return it to today's spec's, should I need to for some reason. However, if I find that this setup makes bending a lot easier, and I end up bending more, than I might just leave it as is. We'll see.

[dwagar]

the thing about bending, it feels easier, but you have to bend further, you still have to get to that same tension equal to that bent note.

the relationship also has to do with how steep the neck angle is. And, keep in mind you might find a 'sweet spot' of overtones at a certain height of the TP, they were adjustable for a reason.

here's an example of my Custom, notice how high the TP'd have to be if I wasn't wrapping it. For me though, I wrap so I don't collapse the original bridge again.

[sbeng]

I top-wrap and think it does make a little bit of difference in playability and sustain. But I mainly do it to protect the guitar. Having a steep break angle puts a lot of force on the bridge both downward and forward (pushing toward the neck). I worry the little ABR studs are going to bend or worse, deform the wood they thread into. Also don't want the bridge to collapse. And if you raise the TP you're applying a fulcrum type force on the TP stud inserts. Probably would be OK, but if you don't mind top-wrapping, why risk it?

[Nils]

I topwrap because I love the angle behind the bridge. Feels better when I rest my hand on it. And because it looks great. And because I think it plays nicer overall.