The Golden Years Myths & Truths of 50's Guitar construction :

[FLICKOFLASH]

Ok there has been many myths & misconstrued information on the methods & materials used to build in the Golden Era. I do know a lot of false information has been passed down & spread around so much that even though it is false info is accepted as fact. Lucky for us we do have some scientific investigators luthiers amongst our presents & let’s hope they share some of their findings. Many are here hiding in our mist that I consider to be world reknown Guru's of repair & construction of stringed instruments. Some even to the most expensive instruments on earth.

[bfcg]

Allow me to pop the top off of the first can of worms.

Yes! I have a myth that I would love to here from the experts on.
Please, please, please straighten out "they used hide glue for the tops" myth.
Necks, finger boards yes. Tops? I don't think so.
I say radio glue (urea formaldehyde resin).
So c'mon experts, let me have it!

[Fletch]

Sure Flick I'll play...

1. Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard
2. No wrapped truss rod
3. Quartersawn neck (somewhat)
4. Neck shape and rolled binding
5. Long neck tenon
6. Old Growth forest mahogany, meaning many more rings per inch from a tree that "struggled to grow" causing much denser wood.
7. Hot animal glue joints
8. Urea formaldahyde glued top
9. Alloy tailpiece
10. Long carbon steel studs and anchors
11. 500k PLUS pots
12. Wiring diagram
13. Tempered PAF base plates
14. Inconsistantly produced PAF coil wire
15. Inconsistantly wound PAF coils
16. Hard rock maple top
17. Lightweight Kluson tuners
18. Nitrocellulose laquor with "defective" plasticizers that eventually outgassed, causing the surface to be dense and brittle (and less prone to denting or dinging)
19. Nitrocellulose that was not thinned, rather was heated to a thin enough consistancy to be able to be sprayed.
20. Aniline dye that was effectively "defective" as well.
21. Correct alloy bridge
22. Yellow brass bridge inserts
23. Longer bridge post of different alloy
24. 50 years as a musical instrument
25. Magic pixie dust

let the games begin...

fletch

[FLICKOFLASH]

I do know of one expert on this forum who does have the facts. He has a relative who works at a museum & have analyzed the glues, lacquers & plastics .I do hope they chime in a share with us the secrets of the burst.

[FLICKOFLASH]

Here is one lil known fact the inlays are inlaided into a radiused route

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

Here is one lil known fact the inlays are inlaided into a radiused route

Yes the Standards are but the Customs aren't. That was mentioned here a little while ago...

fletch

[LG2]

16. Hard rock maple top

not sure, I was thinking soft but no expert. hard maple is not fun to carve and can sound thin compared to soft.

[vkennedy]

Well, you use hard rock maple if you're going to play hard rock, and...

[DGNRepair]

Originally Posted by vkennedy

Well, you use hard rock maple if you're going to play hard rock, and...

[Texas07R8]

6/6 nylon nut
bakelite covers and pickguard
those magical and insanely priced pickup rings
ABR saddles, what is their true composition?

were all burst tops actually hard rock maple??????

wasn't the TRC made through some extrusion process that rippled the surface slightly as well?

Also, who has the bottom line on those old cases, any history there that's not been talked about much?

[bfcg]

Solid color plastic covers and pick guards laminated multi-ply?

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by Texas07R8

6/6 nylon nut
bakelite covers and pickguard
those magical and insanely priced pickup rings
ABR saddles, what is their true composition?

were all burst tops actually hard rock maple??????

wasn't the TRC made through some extrusion process that rippled the surface slightly as well?

Also, who has the bottom line on those old cases, any history there that's not been talked about much?

Yes, forgot about the nut... I don't believe the covers were bakelite though, although there were rolled from about 7 layers of thinner plastic. I have one and it isn't bakelite as far as I can tell.

The TRC was rolled plastic as well, thus the ripples.

fletch

[DoeringerGuitars]

How about the "Lawsuit" Ibanez guitars touted (Myth) to be an exact replica of a LP? The truth was the lawsuit had to deal with the shape of the headstock ONLY.
I have one of these ($35 at a pawn shop 20 years ago), a lower end 2324 model bolt on, but I love it. I'm refinishing it now back to the original color since someone stripped it a sprayed it black. But it is mahogany topped and backed with a spruce veneer and plays like a dream. Doeringer Custom Guitars and Parts Home Page

[Sgt.Pepper]

Well, here are some facts that I know to be true. The tops on all production 1950's Les Pauls were glued to the mahogany back with phenol formaldehyde glue. Gibson used microwaves to cure this glue both for the Les Paul tops as well as for laminating archtop plates. At least some of the centre joints of the maple tops were glued with urea formaldehyde glue. The neck joint, headstock ears and most fingerboard joints seem to be hide glue and the frets were glued in with a mixed animal glue which replaced shellac. Many 1955 guitars have a random number of pieces of nickel silver hammered into the maple truss rod fillet under the fingerboard! Other years do not seem to have this.
Not all 1950's Les Pauls are made from Honduras mahogany - some are Cedar and some are African woods and not all 1959 - 1960 Gibson Fingerboards are Brazilian Rosewood - some are other South American woods such as cocobolo!

[Sgt.Pepper]

Originally Posted by bfcg

Solid color plastic covers and pick guards laminated multi-ply?

The process of making different thickness material was to fuse many layers of thinner material by rolling it together as described here

Darvic | Products | PAR Group

was used for some of the plastics Gibson made backplates and pickguards from but as with everything Gibson, not all the plastics throughout the 50's are even the same type or colour!

[Atomic]

Originally Posted by Fletch

Sure Flick I'll play...
19. Nitrocellulose that was not thinned, rather was heated to a thin enough consistancy to be able to be sprayed.

wow really....??

[Nickpastar]

Originally Posted by Sgt.Pepper

Not all 1950's Les Pauls are made from Honduras mahogany - some are Cedar and some are African woods ...

You mean South American cedar(Cederela)? The guy that makes Roukangas guitars claims that cedar is very similar in sound to honduras mahogany.

[gtrmaker]

Very interesting thread and it will be a great thread if those that know come out and play.

I'm not sure about the Cedar myth although I do have some "Spanish Cedar" neck blanks that could easily be mistaken for Honduras Mahogany especially with a red stain on it. Anything's possible!

Flick, when you say "the inlays are inlaided into a radiused route " are you referring to the route depth following the radius of the fingerboard? Also, pleeeeease get your museum contact to participate!

[Atomic]

Originally Posted by Nickpastar

You mean South American cedar(Cederela)? The guy that makes Roukangas guitars claims that cedar is very similar in sound to honduras mahogany.

so is Oak supposedly. i think a lot of woods would sound similar to what is normally "acceptable" tonewood. in fact, i would love to hear a LP type guitar that was made with an oak back and a birch top.. as those woods are supposedly acoustically similar in response to mahogany and maple respectively. im sure there would be a slight difference.. but how big would the difference really be?

im thinking that the majority of difference would be in how the guitar looks moreso than how it sounds..

[gtrmaker]

Joe, interesting observation, but I think that an oak/birch discussion would be better on a different thread having to do with alternative woods not a discussion on 50's Guitar Construction. Let's please keep the thread on topic as best as possible

[zeppelin101]

I talked to my local gibson retailer and this man is in his late 60s and LOVES gibson its what hes dedicated his life to. He has a 59 btw. i talked to him cuz i used to take lessons and he keeps bringing up that the proccesses used to makek gibson in the old days were so much more labor and as such produced better results.

I think the hyde glue myth (maybe) is from the fact that til this day high end violins are made using hyde glue and it has a distinctive smell. Now before guitar making became a huge industry i can imagine that a guitar company would use the same methods that had been used for hundreds of years it ust makes sense.

[gtrmaker]

Originally Posted by Fletch

18. Nitrocellulose laquor with "defective" plasticizers that eventually outgassed, causing the surface to be dense and brittle (and less prone to denting or dinging)

Who came up with this doozie of a myth? Outgassing plasticizers!

Originally Posted by Fletch

19. Nitrocellulose that was not thinned, rather was heated to a thin enough consistancy to be able to be sprayed.

I would not doubt that Gibson was doing this because it's documented that other factories like C.F. Martin & Co. was doing this. Heating the lacquer (quite dangerous without the right equipment) eliminated the need for thinning and allowed the heated lacquer to flow out and build a finish in fewer coats.

Originally Posted by zeppelin101

I talked to my local gibson retailer and this man is in his late 60s and LOVES gibson its what hes dedicated his life to. He has a 59 btw.

Pictures please!

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by gtrmaker

Who came up with this doozie of a myth? Outgassing plasticizers!

Are you a chemist by chance?

fletch

[gtrmaker]

No, not by chance or design and I wouldn't have it any other way!

I've never heard of plasticizer outgassing. Typically plasticizers are added to achieve a desired amount of flexibility in materials. In my research, plasticizers migrate to the surface and can transfer, but don't outgass. You can google "plasticizer migration" and get all the chemical gobblygook you can stand. This is only a terminology thing as I know where the person was going with it. Once the plasticizers migrate and transfer then the material looses it's flexibility and gets brittle.

Solvents however do outgass.This is why when lacquering, after applying the last coat, I always wet sand the final coat to level it out then let the instrument hang for 15-30 days while the solvent outgasses. If you do not do this then the outer skin of lacquer significantly slows down the solvent outgassing process. This is not critical, but it speeds up the hardening of the lacquer so that you can buff it to a high gloss in a shorter timeframe after shooting the last coat.

Fletch, where are you at in NJ? I'm up north in the West Milford area.

[diceman]

Is this the reason that I would get a "film" on my nitro finished Strat when I would leave it in the sun to fade it? It was strange - you could wipe it right off - but it never happened unless it was laying in the sun/heat.

[gtrmaker]

Yes, this sounds like it because plasticizers will migrate to a surface especially when subjected to heat. Different nitro lacquers have different amounts of plasticizer in them. Over the years I found Lawrence McFadden lacquers to be the best out there. Superb gloss with low build thickness. I've tried all of the others out there and they're loaded with plasticizers and take forever to harden so that you can buff to a nice gloss.

[GooCart]

When you talk about heating the unmixed lacquer, what temperature would you think you need? I talked to a guitar builder here in Sweden and he use to put a can of nitro in heated water to make it "softer", but he doesn't use it without thinner.

[Standard_59]

Originally Posted by gtrmaker

I've never heard of plasticizer outgassing. Typically plasticizers are added to achieve a desired amount of flexibility in materials. In my research, plasticizers migrate to the surface and can transfer, but don't outgass

Solvents however do outgass.

Would this one do both - its a Solvent/Plasticizer?

Dibutyl Phthalate



And on Topic: Was the Nylon nut 4/6....or....6/6

[Sgt.Pepper]

Originally Posted by gtrmaker

Very interesting thread and it will be a great thread if those that know come out and play.

I'm not sure about the Cedar myth although I do have some "Spanish Cedar" neck blanks that could easily be mistaken for Honduras Mahogany especially with a red stain on it. Anything's possible!

Flick, when you say "the inlays are inlaided into a radiused route " are you referring to the route depth following the radius of the fingerboard? Also, pleeeeease get your museum contact to participate!

This is how myths perpetuate. Your mention of a red stain shows you're thinking of bursts. Also, If you're not sure, get out there and look at several hundred 1952 Les Pauls, better still, work on them and you'll smell Cedar used for at least some of them, but AFAIK it was only used for some 1952 Les Pauls. The weight of the cedar ones is also much less.
One of the problems with the internet is that people want to be convinced and it isn't always the truth that presents the most convincing or most logical arguement

[Greco]

I have a whole raft of information but sadly it is all just best guesses and accepted knowledge. I really doubt those that know are ever gonna tell.

One thing I don't quite get yet is the whole formaldehyde glue thing, having never used it. Is heat neccessary for these types of glues to set? How in the hell did Gibson use microwaves to cure the glue without killing anyone? I'm assuming we're not talking about putting the body in a microwave oven for a few minutes either....

Also - hot lacquer: So I stick a can of lacquer in hot water, what's the worst that could happen? At what point would things become dangerous?