The Golden Years Myths & Truths of 50's Guitar construction :

[geochem1st]

Originally Posted by Fletch

Wasn't the story on the nylon nut that someone found an old hunk of nylon at Gibson that was marked "4/6" and then somehow it became nylon from the 50's? And then it was cut into blanks and guys were sucking them up for silly money like a few hundred bucks a pop because they thought they had something? But there wasn't really any reason to believe that that was the truth other than hearsay?

And isn't there really practically no difference between 4/6 and 6/6, and no way to prove which is which by looking at it?

If so I have a TON of 50's 4/6 nylon nut blanks I'll sell for $100 a piece...

I'm fully prepared to stand corrected on this.

fletch

Food for thought:

"Polyamide-4,6 was described as early as 1938 (U.S. Pat. No. 2,130,948, Carothers). Polyamide-4,6 is the polycondensation product of the monomers tetramethylene-diamine and adipic acid.

Due to the very high melting temperature the production of polyamide-4,6 was very difficult. As late as 1985 a process was invented to produce polyamide-4,6 on a commercially attractive scale as described in EP-A-0207539."

Polyamide-4,6 is Nylon 4/6. What were the chances of Gibson having Nylon 4/6 during the 1950's in production quantities?

"Nylon 66 was the first engineering thermoplastic, and up until 1953 represented all of engineering thermoplastic sales. The term "thermoplastic" denotes a material that can be melted through heating. The term "engineering thermoplastics" describes a plastic material that can be cut, drilled, or machined."

Another source:

"DSM (once called Dutch State Mines) introduced nylon 4,6 (Stanyl) in 1990."
Nylon - Chemistry Encyclopedia - Bibliography

[gtrmaker]

Originally Posted by geochem1st

.....Polyamide-4,6 is the polycondensation product of the monomers tetramethylene-diamine and adipic acid.

Geochem1st, what methods are available for conclusively telling the difference between the two?

Any members have a spare nut they wish to submit for evaluation?

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by geochem1st

Food for thought:

"Polyamide-4,6 was described as early as 1938 (U.S. Pat. No. 2,130,948, Carothers). Polyamide-4,6 is the polycondensation product of the monomers tetramethylene-diamine and adipic acid.

Due to the very high melting temperature the production of polyamide-4,6 was very difficult. As late as 1985 a process was invented to produce polyamide-4,6 on a commercially attractive scale as described in EP-A-0207539."

Polyamide-4,6 is Nylon 4/6. What were the chances of Gibson having Nylon 4/6 during the 1950's in production quantities?

"Nylon 66 was the first engineering thermoplastic, and up until 1953 represented all of engineering thermoplastic sales. The term "thermoplastic" denotes a material that can be melted through heating. The term "engineering thermoplastics" describes a plastic material that can be cut, drilled, or machined."

Another source:

"DSM (once called Dutch State Mines) introduced nylon 4,6 (Stanyl) in 1990."
Nylon - Chemistry Encyclopedia - Bibliography

So does this mean the Nylon 4/6 myth can be considered BUSTED? I always thought that the story behind that was kind of silly... that might piss a lot of people off who paid big for those little blanks.

This alone makes this thread solid gold.

fletch

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by Standard_59

There's a company in Germany selling a batch of those Headplates - from the 70's IIRC. You could ask them, Mike.

crazyparts@t-online.de

They do not match vintage dimensions if anyone was thinking & the board is fiberboard. In the 50's they had Holly venneer ( a light colored wood) Not ebony nor fiberboard

[Ole'Lefty]

What I need more of is still available. O'L--Actually, I was so angry Monday that Tuesday I did a highly "disciplined rout" of a particular logo-fillerless. Had to prove to myself I could still do it.Ole'Lefty

[Standard_59]

Originally Posted by Fletch

So does this mean the Nylon 4/6 myth can be considered BUSTED? I always thought that the story behind that was kind of silly... that might piss a lot of people off who paid big for those little blanks.

This alone makes this thread solid gold.

fletch

I wish i could find the thread - but I can't!

While reading other threads on this 4/6 - 6/6 ' Was it Wasn't it ', myth... A link came up showing a letter from Gibsons Edwin Wilson --- it also had info on Bumblebee caps --- where he said they'd had a nut tested and it was, 6/6.

Now that other thread i linked to said 4/6 is far more expensive, so I could see Gibson could save a few bucks by using 6/6.

What if the 4/6 was just a sheet that was shipped to Gibson by mistake and just sat there - until its discovery? Who knows. But I doubt sound wise 4/6 - 6/6 are any different, imho.

[bfcg]

Originally Posted by Ole'Lefty

What I need more of is still available. O'L--Actually, I was so angry Monday that Tuesday I did a highly "disciplined rout" of a particular logo-fillerless. Had to prove to myself I could still do it.Ole'Lefty

I don't think you need to torture yourself on the fit, I think it was more like this...

[geochem1st]

Originally Posted by gtrmaker

Geochem1st, what methods are available for conclusively telling the difference between the two?

Any members have a spare nut they wish to submit for evaluation?

The easiest is destructive. Nylon 4/6 has a higher melting point. Shavings from the nut could be used instead of destroying the whole nut.

I'm sure that there are more methods.... I'll look into it.

[geochem1st]

Originally Posted by Standard_59

I wish i could find the thread - but I can't!

While reading other threads on this 4/6 - 6/6 ' Was it Wasn't it ', myth... A link came up showing a letter from Gibsons Edwin Wilson --- it also had info on Bumblebee caps --- where he said they'd had a nut tested and it was, 6/6.

Now that other thread i linked to said 4/6 is far more expensive, so I could see Gibson could save a few bucks by using 6/6.

What if the 4/6 was just a sheet that was shipped to Gibson by mistake and just sat there - until its discovery? Who knows. But I doubt sound wise 4/6 - 6/6 are any different, imho.

Nylon 4/6 would make a better choice as nut material because of it's crystaline structure. It is much 'stiffer'. Nylon 6/6 has a much lower melting point and is softer and more 'plastic'... less rigid.

[geochem1st]

Originally Posted by Standard_59

There was a thread a while back I read on another forum - and here.

LPF

Its one or the other.

I finally got around to reading this thread on LPF! I can't believe the misinformation that is going on!

For starters, it is being pushed that Nylon 4/6 is a blend of Nylon 4 plus Nylon 6, and not being made anymore because Nylon 4 is not being made anymore.... total BS. Look up Nylon 4 screws, its a standard automotive industry used part.

Nylon 4/6 is it's own compound that is synthesized. Not a mix of the two Nylons as mentioned above. The numerical nomenclature for nylon is derived from the number of carbon atoms in the diamine and dibasic acid monomers used to manufacture it. The ratio of carbon atoms is what gives each nylon type its unique property characteristics.

Post#30

the new nuts would not be 4/6 since 4 can't be made anymore. They would still be 6 nylon, but with a different industrial nylon as a hardener. This is the mix that has taken 4/6's place in the market, but the maker says the hardness and look are 100% the same as the old 4/6.

[Standard_59]

Tbh, I didn't take much notice of what 9/10ths of what people wrote. I just took the mention of 4/6, it is more expensive - which it is - and the mention of it being from Gibson. As for the Material, I searched for some info on it myself :

Chemplast-Resin Systems-Nylon


Plastic Injection Molding, Engineering Materials

Polyamide plays an important role in automotive, electronic and packaging

Resin System Description for (Nylon 6/6) RTP 200 Series Thermoplastic Compounds - RTP Company

Plastic Reference Data


Stanyl(R); 4/6 nylon


Wish I could find that Edwin Wilson link.

[jimi55lp]

Originally Posted by Sgt.Pepper

Well, here are some facts that I know to be true. The tops on all production 1950's Les Pauls were glued to the mahogany back with phenol formaldehyde glue. Gibson used microwaves to cure this glue both for the Les Paul tops as well as for laminating archtop plates. At least some of the centre joints of the maple tops were glued with urea formaldehyde glue. The neck joint, headstock ears and most fingerboard joints seem to be hide glue and the frets were glued in with a mixed animal glue which replaced shellac. Many 1955 guitars have a random number of pieces of nickel silver hammered into the maple truss rod fillet under the fingerboard! Other years do not seem to have this.
Not all 1950's Les Pauls are made from Honduras mahogany - some are Cedar and some are African woods and not all 1959 - 1960 Gibson Fingerboards are Brazilian Rosewood - some are other South American woods such as cocobolo!

I think cedar is similar in looks and weight to old growth Honduran mahogany, but you would be able to smell it with no mistake if it were there. Cedar is probably too soft also, but it is a great tone wood without needing to be old growth.

[jimi55lp]

Originally Posted by Sgt.Pepper

Well, here are some facts that I know to be true. The tops on all production 1950's Les Pauls were glued to the mahogany back with phenol formaldehyde glue. Gibson used microwaves to cure this glue both for the Les Paul tops as well as for laminating archtop plates. At least some of the centre joints of the maple tops were glued with urea formaldehyde glue. The neck joint, headstock ears and most fingerboard joints seem to be hide glue and the frets were glued in with a mixed animal glue which replaced shellac. Many 1955 guitars have a random number of pieces of nickel silver hammered into the maple truss rod fillet under the fingerboard! Other years do not seem to have this.
Not all 1950's Les Pauls are made from Honduras mahogany - some are Cedar and some are African woods and not all 1959 - 1960 Gibson Fingerboards are Brazilian Rosewood - some are other South American woods such as cocobolo!

I think cedar is similar in looks and weight to old growth Honduran mahogany, but you would be able to smell it with no mistake in all routes if it were there. Cedar is really too soft also even when compared to Honduran mahogany, but it is a great tone wood without needing to be old growth.

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by jimi55lp

I think cedar is similar in looks and weight to old growth Honduran mahogany, but you would be able to smell it with no mistake in all routes if it were there. Cedar is really too soft also even when compared to Honduran mahogany, but it is a great tone wood without needing to be old growth.

That's all not necessarily true. If it were 50 years old you wouldn't smell it and you also wouldn't smell it unless you started sanding it. The only thing I've ever smelled in a vintage guitar cavity is vintage guitar stank...

As for Cedar being soft, yes, some of it is. However it can also be very hard, heavy and dense. Spanish cedar is all over the place when it comes to this. I know this because I am building two replicas now of spanish cedar, one is very soft and light and dents easily, the other is hard and dense and actually weighs more then the mahogany blanks I have been using.

fletch

[alk-3]

In all my years as a woodworker I have never heard anyone say cedar is similar to mahogany. If we're talking about plain old cedar from north america I can say with certainty that no one would mistake the two, even under a heavy finish.

[bfcg]

Spanish cedar is the cedar that I guess might seem to look like Mahogany to some.

[gtrmaker]

These photos aren't closeups, but you can easily see why Spanish Cedar can be mistaken for Hond Mahogany



Put either of these under a colored finish and good luck telling which is which. The densities are even similar.

[Fletch]

Well I will say that the Spanish Cedar I have would most likely be indistinguishable under a finish. Unfinished, it is definitely a different color than mahogany, it's a little more light in color. There wouldn't really be too much of a way to tell in a finished guitar, short of cutting a hunk out of it and working it.

fletch

[SG Lou]

Heating Lacquer.
I agree with what is written that it dosen't dry faster because it's heated but i will also agree that it dose flow better.

Has anyone tried to warm up a spray bomb in warm water?
try it sometimes and you'll see that it actually sprays better ( heat expands the gases in the can ) but more so, the paint flows out much smoother.

I have even gona as far as warming up a spray can of nitro with a heat gun on the low setting. Paint flow is beautiful !

[alk-3]

Spanish cedar (which is actually a species of mahogany) I can understand, any cedar from north America (eastern white, western red) no way.

[FLICKOFLASH]

Cedar is a very good tonewood & the tree can be very old. One never has been said what model LP were they used ? may be on only Jrs

[Fletch]

Well I read this thread on the 4/6 nylon nut RS Guitarworks Nylon 4/6 Nut blanks - Page 2 - Les Paul Forum

I find it odd that when Gibson tested a vintage nut for their 2009 LPs, and came up with 6/6 some folks got defensive.

I do stand corrected after reading that thread, seems as though the nuts were sold reasonably priced and not for a "few hundred bucks" as I said earlier. Thusly I take that comment back.

fletch

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by FLICKOFLASH

Cedar is a very good tonewood & the tree can be very old. One never has been said what model LP were they used ? may be on only Jrs

I think Sgt. Pepper mentioned that a few hundred 52's were the Spanish Cedar guitars.

fletch

[Greco]

Originally Posted by bfcg

I don't think you need to torture yourself on the fit, I think it was more like this...

Here's what 50's routes look like:

[Standard_59]

Thanks for the pics, Greco -- thats nice & snug...

[Ole'Lefty]

Those headstock shots are about what I came up with when I opened up DJ's headplate to resemble a production line rout. Since, I have used that rout to make a lexan template. Then, because the fit issue of logos was on my mind, I set out to do a "no filler rout" and I will be saving that to lexan as well. Based upon very close examination, they haven't really changed the generous cavity, at least up to 2007. I have seen some that are like one shown above, essentially a rectangle with tails added and others that have the essence of the characters of the lettering with tails-that is, not straight lines. Even the available modern fiber plates are not exact fit in the logo area.

---I am far from an LP expert, vintage or otherwise, but I did a great deal of studying since a sale of a recent LP(factory built) went South when an ignorant potential buyer suggested the filler outline made him suspicious that the guitar was a fake. One thing we all should know by now is that there is no "ALWAYS" over the years of LP manufacture.

[bryvincent]

here's another one: not all Bumblebee caps used in the late 50s are PIOs. the later version is mylar and started showing up in some Gibsons in '59. the ones with a solder 'blob' on one lead are PIOs and the ones with no blob are mylar.

[FLICKOFLASH]

Originally Posted by Fletch

Well I will say that the Spanish Cedar I have would most likely be indistinguishable under a finish. Unfinished, it is definitely a different color than mahogany, it's a little more light in color. There wouldn't really be too much of a way to tell in a finished guitar, short of cutting a hunk out of it and working it.

fletch

Many cigar boxes are spanish cedar

[gtrmaker]

For those of you who are interested in the old Martin hot lacquer process:

- Environment: 72 degrees F and about 45% RH
- Equipment: German waterfall spray booth
1) Prefinish sand to 180 grit
2) Spray sealer coat; let dry a min of a couple hours
3) Scuff sand 400 alum oxide
4) Apply silica based filler thinned with naptha or min. spirits to a syrupy consistency. Apply with a brush. Wait approx 5 min then work the filler into the pores with a cotton rag tied into a bun. Remove the excess.
5) Scrape binding
6) Spray 2nd sealer coat and let dry for 2 hours
7) The nitro lacquer was formulated to be sprayed warm (110 deg F) and is run through preheating hoses to achieve this temp at the gun.
8) Spray 2 wet coats with 45 min between coats. Let dry 24 hours
9) Lightly sand with 220-280 grit
10) Repeat step 8 two mores times (6 coats total)
11) Drop fill areas as needed
12) Lambs wool buff the finish with compound

[gtrmaker]

Here's a new one:

Elvis is alive and runs the Gibson Memphis Division.