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Unread 05-19-2012, 04:59 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Need info on LP jr neck mortise

I'm looking for some specifics on an LP jr mortise and tenon. There's loads of DC plans, but not SC. From pics of a jr, I can see the neck and cutaway area don't make a smooth transition. Is the fretboard more narrow at the heel than a standard? It seems as though it would have to be. I know the neck tenon follows the full taper of the fretboard. I just can't figure out what's up with the gap inbetween the fretboard and the cutaway.
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Unread 05-19-2012, 05:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

MRJ did a Jr. SC build not long ago and documented it in a thread. Might search for that
and see, because I know there was a lot of discussion about the tenon/mortise.
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Unread 05-19-2012, 05:26 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

I saw a '56 at a shop the other day and that gap was there. I'm building 2 now and the template kit is set up for the same gap for the single cut. I'm not in front of it right now but if I recall it's just that the tail end of the pocket is rounded a bit and the end of the neck has sharp corners. the pick guard covers it. -WARNING- here comes an opinion- I think that's just how their machines were set up at the time. the pocket just looks pretty much like one on a Fender. you just gotta either angle the neck pocket or the end of the neck. might be kinda nice because you could in theory be a little less exacting in the dimensions of the neck pocket, cover the gap with the pick guard and make up small differences with your bridge and saddle placement. the neck taper at the end isn't reduced. glue the board on, cut the taper, mill the pocket to match.
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Unread 05-19-2012, 05:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

I just took some measurement (with my not the best digital caliper, but close enough) from my Bartlett plans. I get approx 53.50mm at the 16th fret. That puts the edge of the fretboard lined up with the top portion of the cutaway. With that so, how do you get that space between the fretboard and cutaway without reducing the fretboard taper at some point?
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Unread 05-19-2012, 06:11 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the OP is not asking about the end of the tenon, but rather the right side, where there is a lip between the fingerboard and the edge of the cutaway, unlike an LP Standard.

I'd assume that's simply a slightly different cutaway shape...

...but maybe I'm wrong about the OP's post. If so, carry on.
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Unread 05-19-2012, 06:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

BINGO, you got it barnaby. Thats exactly what Im trying to figure out. Any reference I look at doesnt mention a difference in body shape between a jr vs a standard. However I hadent considered that, that just may be the case. I hope not. Ive already completed the body shaping.
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Unread 05-19-2012, 06:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

ok gotcha! I think what is going on with this vs the arch top is that the arch top's neck tennon is narrower than the fingerboard and it allows the fingerboard to extend out to the edge of the body... the neck is narrow where it hits the tennon and the fingerboard hangs over the sides. on the jr the neck is like a Fender, neck and fingerboard are the same width the whole way. you have to have that bit of wood there, just like a fender, to keep the neck in place.
this is the template I am using and the pic may show you a better image of what's goin on....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LP-Jr-Single...item35ba2d6066
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Unread 05-19-2012, 06:48 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

I had a heck of a time figuring out the construction until I got the template. I even drove 3 hours in a storm to get this old flying v neck off a guy so I could the neck tennon as a jig.... then I get the template and it's totally different. now I have to build a V to justify the trip!!!!
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Unread 05-19-2012, 06:58 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

well **** me. After much more searching the forum, I found the answer I was looking for, But not the answer I wanted to hear. Apparently there is a difference between the cutaway of a jr vs a standard. On a jr theres a bit more "meat" left in the cutaway to allow for that lip area inbetween the fretboard and body. Shit shit shit shit shit shit shit.
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Unread 05-19-2012, 07:05 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Alright folks. I need suggestions. What can I do with this guitar body besides turning into a standard? A special perhaps?
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Unread 05-19-2012, 07:08 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

don't ya just love it when that happens?
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Unread 05-19-2012, 08:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

I supposed I could just do it with a tenon like a carved top, but have no neck angle and a slightly recessed TOM bridge? I don't know much about this stuff.
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Unread 05-19-2012, 08:33 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Talking Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

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don't ya just love it when that happens?
Uhhhh, NO!
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Unread 05-19-2012, 09:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmorris View Post
Alright folks. I need suggestions. What can I do with this guitar body besides turning into a standard? A special perhaps?
resize your neck tenon so the fingerboard will overlap the top?
won't have that visual extra bit on the cutaway but the construction method will be the same.
if i understand it now you're left with what is basically a fender style joint where the cutaway meets flush with the neck exposing 1/2 of one side?
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Unread 05-19-2012, 09:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Maybe it could be done as a DCJR now? Not sure about the relative dimensions...
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Unread 05-19-2012, 09:25 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Gibson.com: Gibson Les Paul Jr.
gibson makes their cutaway flush now like a standard?
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Unread 05-19-2012, 09:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Quote:
Originally Posted by slapshot View Post
Gibson.com: Gibson Les Paul Jr.
gibson makes their cutaway flush now like a standard?
Looks like it......interesting...so it must have a narrower tenon.
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Unread 05-19-2012, 10:02 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Quote:
Originally Posted by slapshot View Post
Gibson.com: Gibson Les Paul Jr.
gibson makes their cutaway flush now like a standard?
It's looks as though the cutaway area meets the fretboard near the 18th fret vs going up to the 16th fret. I'm was planning on doing a clear finish and I don't know that I could make that transition very pleasing to the eye.
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Unread 05-19-2012, 10:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

burst it then
we need some pictures of your ****up I think.
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Unread 05-20-2012, 01:50 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

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burst it then
we need some pictures of your ****up I think.
The only **** up was shaping the body like that of a standard carved top. The body itself is still completely ok, just not suitable for a vintage style jr.
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Unread 05-20-2012, 05:24 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Went and checked out some modern JR singlecuts today. Slapshot is dead on (as usual) - they're definitely inline like a Standard these days. Looking at the joint, I don't see that it would be a hassle to get looking nice. My advice is to head to a guitar shop, look at a bunch and let your subconscious do the rest.
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Unread 05-20-2012, 09:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

still need to angle the neck. kinda defeats the purpose of a LP if there's no neck angle. some SG's in the 70's were made with no neck angle and the neck was raised where it joins the body... but they're ugly suggestions.... Fender scale lenght.. then you could get a wider taper @ the end of the neck. short scale bass maybe? if you used a standard LP neck tennon that could get you close and then a little hand shaping?

It's a long shot but you might also look @ Carl Thompson's you tube videos. www.ctbasses.com and look in the videos section. he talks a lot about neck joints, construction and angles. yeah he's a bass builder but he had a long history of working with some fine archtop builders. you might find something there.
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Unread 05-21-2012, 12:06 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Quote:
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The only **** up was shaping the body like that of a standard carved top. The body itself is still completely ok, just not suitable for a vintage style jr.
should be able to salvage it though with some tenon work or not worth it?
to be honest that extra lip keeps me away from the single cut juniors
Quote:
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Slapshot is dead on (as usual)
haha you should read some of the other 9000+ posts full of incorrect nonsense
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Unread 05-21-2012, 12:48 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

If you want to make a vintage correct Jr, well, that's not going to happen with that body now.
But if you want to make a Jr with the cutaway running flush with the neck side, then it is a bit more work, but far from impossible. No need for a recessed bridge.

Just do it like Gibson did with the vintage ES-335s in the late 50s (click on the thumbnails to enlarge...).

Cut a narrower tenon on your neck, just like for a Standard LP, with the fretboard overhanging at both sides.

Make an angled mortise to match the tenon. Here you have to plan very carefully the angle you need combined with the elevation of the fretboard over the body top to look elegant and have enough clearance for your ABR bridge. You'll end up with something like this (the fretboard hanging in the air):


Now trim a couple of mahogany wedges to fill the gaps below the fretboard. A belt sander is ideal for this, you'll get them done in a matter of minutes (with the complimentary trimming of your fingernails...).


Glue the wedges to the underside of the overhanging fretboard and trim to fit.


And you're done. The fretboard elevated over the top with no gap below.


Hope it helps.
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Unread 05-21-2012, 05:43 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

yeah that.
with pics and all
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Unread 05-21-2012, 06:14 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
If you want to make a vintage correct Jr, well, that's not going to happen with that body now.
But if you want to make a Jr with the cutaway running flush with the neck side, then it is a bit more work, but far from impossible. No need for a recessed bridge.

Just do it like Gibson did with the vintage ES-335s in the late 50s (click on the thumbnails to enlarge...).

Cut a narrower tenon on your neck, just like for a Standard LP, with the fretboard overhanging at both sides.

Make an angled mortise to match the tenon. Here you have to plan very carefully the angle you need combined with the elevation of the fretboard over the body top to look elegant and have enough clearance for your ABR bridge. You'll end up with something like this (the fretboard hanging in the air):
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...th_IMG_157.jpg

Now trim a couple of mahogany wedges to fill the gaps below the fretboard. A belt sander is ideal for this, you'll get them done in a matter of minutes (with the complimentary trimming of your fingernails...).
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...th_IMG_159.jpg

Glue the wedges to the underside of the overhanging fretboard and trim to fit.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...th_IMG_160.jpghttp://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...th_IMG_161.jpg

And you're done. The fretboard elevated over the top with no gap below.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x...th_IMG_162.jpg

Hope it helps.
Funny, I fell asleep last night thinking about doing just what you described. What angle did you set your neck at?
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Unread 05-21-2012, 06:53 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

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Funny, I fell asleep last night thinking about doing just what you described. What angle did you set your neck at?
That neck was set at 5.3*, but that's a lot for you !
That guitar is an ES-355, i.e. the top is not flat. The belly is 1/2" above the plane where the neck is set (that's more than a Les Paul Std).

Just like you will have to do, I had to find the compromise between neck angle and overall elevation over the plane to clear the arching of the top and the height of the bridge.

In your case the angle will be significantly lower as you have a flat top. Make a drawing of the geometry of the neck, top and bridge in full scale and play around to find your best compromise.
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Unread 05-21-2012, 07:03 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Yeah I had a brain fart and realized it after I asked the question. Already figured I needat ought 3.5 degree with the bridge at its lowest
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Unread 05-21-2012, 07:24 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

Completely off topic, but........ never put your freshly finished fretboard on your tailgate and then forget and drive off. I saw it fly off when I pulled out onto the highway. It screamed for me as it took its last breath and......then died a horrible death as a big ass truck squashed it under its giant mud tires. So so sad. The little guy never had a chance (I believe that children are our future, plays in the background). I had just put one more coat of black dye on it and placed it on my tailgate to get some sun.
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Unread 05-21-2012, 07:41 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Need info on LP jr neck mortise

I can see it now......"Louisiana Highway Patrolman, motorcycle division, chases you down
for 3 miles with his lights flashing and sirens blaring. You finally realize he's there and come
to a complete stop. He walks up to the window with mirrored RayBans and taps it with
his night stick. 'What the hell were you thinking? You drug that fretboard for the first
mile and a half before he finally gave up.' And it all goes bad from there"
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