Let's build an "ES" guitar, and I might have questions

[emoney]

Ok, let's just call a spade a spade: I'm SURE I'll have questions. You know, maybe
I should start at the beginning.

First of all, I'm technically building what's dubbed the "LC-933". Fellow forumite
LC100 went to a ton of effort this past fall to work out an ES339/CS356/ES335
inspired, carved top and body, semi-hollow. Sadly, I was "M.I.A." over the summer
and missed the "up-to-the-minute" thread updates, but he noticed my interest
this winter with such a build and forwarded me his pdf, which I gratefully accepted,
looked at and said to myself, "that would be nice if I wasn't so lazy" and proceeded
to shelve it. Thankfully, said member has been working on his own design and
that's garnering all his attention, because he had this body/back just sitting
there collecting dust and he offered it to me;

It may be hard to tell in that photo, but (and hopefully he'll weigh in with more
detail in this thread) what you're seeing there is two different pieces of Mahogany
chambered very heavily, with the center block and rim remaining solid. This
picture may help;

Or better still, this one;

Initially, I think the thought was to go the traditional route and carve the back
to match the top, but if I'm not mistaken, he found a very useful cabinet maker's
router bit and did a rather large roundover on the back, which resulted in pretty
much the same thing;

Obviously, Mr. Smarty Pants had a little "burn-out" issue with his routes, as
you can see on the horns....buwahahaha. (Sorry, LC, had to throw that in
because I think you're so much better at this than me and this dents that armor, lol)
He also had a nice piece of figured Maple he'd rough cut for the top that I
scammed off him as well. Here you can see it with my "E-hole" design in it's
infancy;

My contributions to this thing was this;

That and a chunk of Mahogany for the neck (more on that later), but what
you're seeing there is a rather large (3" diameter) Cocobolo hand rail taken from
some since-remodeled bank that I got from a cabinet maker for $5.00. I've
since turned 1/2 of one rail into 2 of these;

A very nice, very orange fretboard. Oh, and here's that neck I mentioned, at
least in it's early stage;

So that's how it all started. In a minute, I'll try to bring you up-to-speed as
to where I am now, as I've been on this for a little bit and there's more pics
and info to come.

[ocw]

i'm digging the "E" holes. It gives the lower bout a slimming effect. Almost like vertical stripes on a fat chick. very nice!

[pulaifax]

Originally Posted by emoney

... he found a very useful cabinet maker's
router bit and did a rather large roundover on the back, which resulted in pretty
much the same thing;...

looks great so far emoney - do you know what router bit was that ? thanks

[LC100]

Originally Posted by pulaifax

looks great so far emoney - do you know what router bit was that ? thanks

Amazon.com: Extra Large Thumbnail Table Edge Router Bit - Yonico 13143: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Extra Large Thumbnail Table Edge Router Bit - Yonico 13143: Home Improvement

It was cheap and the right profile. I didn't want to waste a lot of money on it if the test didn't turn out as expected. Now that I have seen how well it did the job I'm considering a better made bit. The chambers final passes were done with a couple of different Whiteside bowl & tray bits. 3/4" and 1 1/4" diameters and the radius on both is 1/4". Those two are quickly becoming my favorite bits because of the excellent finish they leave.

E$: That is two different mahoganies. Center is Honduran and the back is African. And that burned edge...nearly unavoidable because the bit has to be used at such a low rpm. You didn't show the picture of how it looked when it arrived.

[emoney]

I KNEW I'd snuff you out with that remark....buwhahahaha!!!

[emoney]

Ok, where was I (hey, I gotta work for a living here, ok?)
In all fairness to LC100, when the body got to me, it did look like clean as a pin. I'm sorry
but those pics are on the "home computer" and I'm at work.

So, since LC100 was too lazy to carve this sucker, I was left alone to handle all the hard work.
First, I started taking concise and true measurements of both height and depth of where
I wanted the top to end up in thickness. Then, I applied both geometry and calculus to
arrive at these measurements for the inside of the top, or the "non-showy part";

Ok, that's not true at all, as he went to all the effort of doing all this for me, long before
either of us knew I wanted to build an ES...lol

I went "free-hand" in routing both the inside and outside, meaning I didn't make templates
as sometimes it takes longer to make the templates that it does to complete the job,
of course, and I'm not sure how many I'll make. Plus, I actually enjoy this part
so why not just feel all creative and such in doing it without the aid of a template.
We're starting with a top that measures over 3/4" thick so that gives us plenty of room
to work with. I just routed "steps" like we do on the outside carves, but 'backwards'


If you notice, I made sure to leave a very thin amount of material at each step so it
would be easier to see where to route on the next one, when I went past that point.
Like any carving, you've got to take a little material off at a time and I realized when
carving "upside down", the line disappears rather quickly. Anyway, I routed my steps
and then grabbed the orbital sander with fresh, crisp 80 grit sandpaper and had my way
with her;


Finally getting to this point;


Now it was time to flip this sucker over and carve the top.....

[emoney]

By carving the top, especially on one that's had the "bottom" carved, you need to work
from the inside out....at least I felt that was the safest way to insure I didn't go too thin.
Plus, I'm not using templates, so what's it matter, right?

Same process as before in that I'm leaving a thin line of material at each "line" to make
it easier to see in the gradual removal of material;

Next thing I knew, my top looked like this;

And it eventually even got to this;

I've at this point, taken that 3/4" of material down to just over 1/4" on the edges and
if you notice, I left the area where the neck will join, free from any sanding. It will get
removed when it's time to route the neck angle. Which, btw, we've (actually LC100 did)
factored out to be over 5.5 degrees.
Again, the same orbital and the same grit sandpaper, and I eventually get this;


Smooth as a baby's bottom and "curvey", just the way we like 'em;

Next up.........cutting those "E-holes"

[emoney]

Well, what a disappointment I've turned out to be, because I don't have pictures of the
"Making of an E-hole Template", but let me say I spent as much time working that template
as I did carving BOTH sides of the top.
Before I get too far, here's a picture before I had taken the edges as far down as they
are now that "kinda" shows the thickness of the top and if you squint, you can see that
LC100 did, in fact, remove those burn marks from the body itself;

Ok.....back to the "E holes". First, before anybody throws it in, making a "A-hole" joke at
this point would be very sophomoric......so it better be a good one.
Since this isn't a traditional ES-335, there was no since in doing a traditional F-hole. I'm
not a huge fan of some of the other soundhole routes I've seen that are more contemporary
at the same time, so I decided, in honor of my nickname, to make an "E-hole". Trust me,
if you just barely open your eyes and view it from an angle, you can see the "E" in
question;



I had no choice but to make a template for these, otherwise I ran the risk of them not
matching each other, and even I couldn't be that sloppy. I really am let down at myself
for not having those pictures, but basically what I did was to download a Tele Thinline
plan in .pdf and manipulating their F-hole into my E-hole. If you look at the Tele F-hole
you'll see where I basically just cut two in half and repositioned those halves into what
I wanted. Making the template in 3/4" mdf was an absolute chore that entailed me using
everything from the Drill Press to the Trim Router and included the jigsaw and my new,
favorite, Dremel Trio. That, coupled with about 3 hours of sandpaper applied by hand
and every little small block and dowel that I could glue it too. But, my hard work finally
paid off as I'm pretty darned happy with how they turned out, although, if I was to do it
over, I will probably move the holes themselves a smidgeon more towards center, because
I haven't quite figured out my control knob layout, and I may not have left myself enough
room on that said, but we'll figure it out somehow.
One last parting shot, and you can see the definition of the carve a little better. I was
most pleased with the horns as they've turned out much more symmetrical that I feared
they would doing it freehand. I guess even a blind squirrel gets a nut occassionally;

Now we're onto the neck, and that's where the "fun" begins......

[emoney]

Since I need to wait for a "Material Order" that includes my binding for the E-holes, as
I'm wanting to accomplish that step prior to gluing the top to the back, I figured why not
use the down time to build a neck, right?

So, what does any aspiring guitar builder do? He proceeds to rely on his vast experience,
now totaling a grand number of 4 builds, and builds his neck like he's built all the others;
First, we plane down to just over 3/16" some of that Cocobolo and proceed to cut fret slots;


I mentioned this in another thread, but I'm not much of a jig-builder, being lazy and all,
so I cut my slots with your basic Carpenter's square. So far, it's not failed me;

The key to this is leaving the board, un-tapered so you can use the square edge to
insure a 90degree cut. I've created a "scale template", if you will, on the back of my 3'
yard stick and that's what I use for my starting mark on fret location. Meh......somehow
it works for me.
Then, since I also have this little project in the works;

(another body snarphed off LC100...this one all maple)
...I proceeded to cut two necks;

Glued on my wings and rough-cut my little headstock design, minus the top humps;

And I was so proud of myself for having two rather nice looking Mahogany necks, one
a little heavy for the LP and the other nicely light for the 933, along with two fret-slotted
lovely orangey Cocobolo fretboards in Gibby scale.....until I realized that on the Les Paul,
the neck meets at the 16th fret. On the ES 335, it's at the 19th fret, like this;

Even on the older 330, while it's closer, still meets the body at the 18th fret (not the 16th);

So, that gets us to where we are today.....me needing to build a new neck, which means
I either go with a Maple neck or try to source some more Mahogany. Unless, someone
has a great idea how I can get around this little issue. I'll put a pic up later of the
actual neck, but it's just like the one above with the Les Paul.

[emoney]

So, in looking at this thing, why can't my guitar's neck meet the body at the 17th fret?
It would look a little like this (another one of those "eye squinting moments");


That's where this already cut neck would end up, if I get all I can get out of the headstock
end. Anybody got thoughts on this? Another bonus of that picture is you can see my
now completely sanded and finished "E-holes" that I've so come to love and beam with
pride over, every time they're around...

Ok, back to wherever I left off. Oh, I remember, I wanted to recant my earlier accusationary
tone by showing the body in the condition I actually received it in, so you can see that
LC100 did, in fact, sand out the burn marks, lol;


More importantly, you can see how that roundover bit he used truly does give the body
an element of "carve", almost a bubble back if you will, which is exactly what I had in mind;



So, NOW, we're actually caught up to present time. It'll be a day or two before the
binding for the holes comes in, and I'm debating about doing a "rough in" wiring thing so
I don't have to cut a control access panel on the back. I'm still undecided on which way
to go, and if I don't cut the hole, my thought was to "rough wire" the top, push the pots
and wires into the body and leave only a string attached to all 4 pots, switch and
output jack, then when it's time for finishing, I just pull the strings through the top and
tighten it all down. Anybody want to weigh in on this idea? Your thoughts, comments,
and advice are greatly appreciated.

[emoney]

Oh, and one (well, maybe two) more question for all to consider;
"P90s or humbuckers? AND, would you use the bridge such as on the wine 330 above
or go stoptail?"

Oh, and the odds are, there will be about a week break in this thread as it looks like a
road trip is coming my way. But, if I decide to drive, I may take a few things with
me to work on when I'm bored. Still need all the "mojo" you can spare sent to my
dear, old Dad.

[emoney]

All right, I've slept on it and I think I'm going to proceed with this neck and just decide after
I get to the point of where it's ready to set. I've looked at a hundred of these things online
and the difference between the 17th & 19th, I don't believe anyway, is going to make a
huge difference. And, you know what, this isn't a replica of anything so I can do whatever
I want to do, so there.

I figure when I get the neck place & tenon route done, I'll temporarily set the neck and
add one of those floating tailpieces that attach at the end strap button, throw some
string "strings" on there with a couple of dummy p'ups and see what I think. No sense wasting
a perfectly good neck and I'm afraid I won't find another piece as light as this and I
need all the weight relief I can get.

[LC100]

Originally Posted by emoney

I've looked at a hundred of these things online and the difference between the 17th & 19th, I don't believe anyway, is going to make a huge difference.

You'll need to recalculate the neck angle if you do this. Access to upper frets will also be a little more difficult due to the cutaways shape.

[Claymore]

Look at you go!!!
Humbuckers....

[emoney]

Originally Posted by LC100

You'll need to recalculate the neck angle if you do this. Access to upper frets will also be a little more difficult due to the cutaways shape.

More shallow angle? I thought about that, but have no idea where you keep
going to find that calculator thingy.

[emoney]

Originally Posted by Claymore

Look at you go!!!
Humbuckers....

Vote counted. You know, I didn't make it an "option", but I could always go
with a P90 neck/Humbucker bridge too, as an option.

[LC100]

Originally Posted by emoney

More shallow angle? I thought about that, but have no idea where you keep
going to find that calculator thingy.

Neck Angle Calculator - The Tundra Man Workshop

EDIT: You should measure to see if pushing the neck back like that causes the pickup rout to fall outside of the solid part underneath. Guess it depends on what style of pickup you use, too. A P90 is probably narrow and shallow enough to be OK. A humbucker might not be.

[emoney]

Originally Posted by LC100

Neck Angle Calculator - The Tundra Man Workshop

EDIT: You should measure to see if pushing the neck back like that causes the pickup rout to fall outside of the solid part underneath. Guess it depends on what style of pickup you use, too. A P90 is probably narrow and shallow enough to be OK. A humbucker might not be.

Thanks oodles for the link. But.....(*and there's always a but with me, no?)
would you mind expounding on this process here in the thread in the event
someone happens along and needs more clarity. For example, when looking
at that calculator, the last factor, Increase In Top Height From Neck To Bridge:
from where does that number come?

Anyone reading this thread should know, LC100 has spent a lot of time figuring
out some of this stuff we newer builders are taking for granted. For instance,
"neck angle". I see a lot of newbies (myself included initially), just assume
that those that went before us that cut their neck angles @ 4.4 degrees and
p'up planes at 1.4, etc. etc., are correct for our builds, but that isn't always
the case. Now I know you more experience guys know this, but you can guys
can spend the time daydreaming about nekked girls bathed in '59 LPs or something

[JimmyPage968]

I like it!

[Archer]

Cool build E, I'll be watching this one.

Were you at least a little scared that you would route through that top at some point? I would have been. But then again I don't pay real close attention like I'm sure you do.

[LC100]

Originally Posted by emoney

For example, when looking
at that calculator, the last factor, Increase In Top Height From Neck To Bridge:
from where does that number come?

If the edge of the top where the neck joins is 1/4" and the top is 3/4" thick overall the difference is 1/2". You just need to plug in whatever numbers you have to get the proper angle.

[emoney]

Originally Posted by LC100

If the edge of the top where the neck joins is 1/4" and the top is 3/4" thick overall the difference is 1/2". You just need to plug in whatever numbers you have to get the proper angle.

Wait...before routing, I assume? As in; right now the way it sits?
I noticed that if that number goes up like a 1/4" the angle jumps to like
6.7 degrees. Must be pretty important, then.

[emoney]

Originally Posted by Archer

Cool build E, I'll be watching this one.

Were you at least a little scared that you would route through that top at some point? I would have been. But then again I don't pay real close attention like I'm sure you do.

Are you kiddin? I'm "Mr. Doesn't Pay Close Enough Attention" (yeah, I know
it's a strange name but you can't pick your parents, right?)
And absolutely I was scared about routing through, because we're only talking
a 1/4" of material there. Basically, I just took my slow, sweet time, which is
uncommon for me normally. I really did figure by routing from the "inside-out"
so-to-speak, meaning that instead of routing the outer rim first, I route the
first step down first, was the better way to go because you could constantly
monitor the thickness. My initial goal was to get the top down to 3/8" so I'd
have that 1/8" left to remove in the finish sanding. Got lucky somehow.

The key for me, since I didn't use a template, was those slivers of material left
because I realized on the very first step that you immediately remove your
line. So, if you're "guessing" where your line is, next thing you know....oops.

It's all good though. Might have taken several long, grueling hours of hard labor,
but I figure you guys are worth it.

[Barnaby]

P-90s and a stoptail. I say consider going for a Lashbrook piezo system in there too...

This thing is looking simply beautiful. Congrats to you and LC both!!!

[LC100]

Originally Posted by emoney

Wait...before routing, I assume? As in; right now the way it sits?
I noticed that if that number goes up like a 1/4" the angle jumps to like
6.7 degrees. Must be pretty important, then.

Before routing what? It's the tops finished thickness at the edge and where the bridge sits (overall). You have to determine what the edge will be. It should actually be a steeper angle with a lower edge height and no change to the thickness as it is now. EG: If you went say 3/16" it should be more than the 1/4" edge angle by a bit.

Don't over-think it. Just get your known heights and you should be OK with the numbers it generates.

[jonny]

Hey E, when you did the top going from the centre outwards, what did you rest the router on?

[pulaifax]

great progress emoney

I have two questions:

why did you leave the material in the area where the neck will join?

you are not doing an inner carve for the top to keep the top's thickness constant and also to keep the weight down a little?

[emoney]

Originally Posted by jonny

Hey E, when you did the top going from the centre outwards, what did you rest the router on?

Sorry it's taken my so long, Jonny. I've been away with an ill father, but I'm
heading back home tomorrow, so work will rebegin..again...wait....?

Anyway, in answer to your question, I rested the router on the outer rings, until
I got to within the last 2 or three, at which time I used scrap material to create a
ledge around the perimeter of the guitar to rest the router base on. How's that
for being creative, eh?

[emoney]

Originally Posted by pulaifax

great progress emoney

I have two questions:

why did you leave the material in the area where the neck will join?

you are not doing an inner carve for the top to keep the top's thickness constant and also to keep the weight down a little?

My apologies to you as well, Pulaifax...as above.

To answer your questions;
1) Because LC10 told me to. I believe the logic behind it, and surely he'll weigh
in to correct me where wrong, is that the neck angle will eliminate that area
completely, so no sense going through "step-routing". Plus, it creates a nice
even "plane" for the neck angle to be cut.
2) Yes, you're correct. The reason for routing both inside and outside was both
weight relief, and more importantly, to create as big of a resonance chamber
for the acoustic tones as possible. The goal, I believe, when the original designers
at Epiphone (I think) had the acoustic tones in mind, BEFORE the electric ones. In
essence, a "true" semi-hollow, acoustic/elecric. Now, if they achieved that goal
is probably a topic for another thread entirely, since they never actually created
the guitar until years later, since lamination seemed to be the "thought of the day"
.....so-to-speak.

[pulaifax]

sorry for the confusion emoney - I went back to #6 and I see the inner carve now - cool