Looking at Historics Tonight - '58 Flametop?

[dbf909]

I stopped by the local Sam Ash on the way home from work to take a look at what they had in stock. I'm in there on a regular basis but I really haven't looked at the high end LPs in quite a while.

They had a few R's and it was real slow so they let me play all of them without bugging me much. Thanks to this forum and my recent purchase of a Robot LP, I am once again GASing for an R9. I had an R7 a while ago that I just had to sell because I could not get used to the fat neck - even after two years of trying... I had my eye on an R9 at the time but the cost was double what I sold the R7 for and I didn't have the $.

So fast forward to today.

There were three R8's. One Washed Cherry (new 09), One Iced Tea (new 09), and another Iced Tea (used 08). Both the new ones had the same huge fat neck that was on my R7. I played them for about 15 minutes and remembered why I sold the Goldtop - just too big for my hand. On the other hand (no pun intended), the used one had a bit more rounded neck on it that was more comfortable but still a bit fat. The price on the used one was decent but still more than I would pay for an R8.

They had a 50th anniversary R9 in Burnt Wheat. Nice flame and figure but I'm just not a huge fan of the color. However, the neck was perfect - nice and round. It was chunky but felt perfect to me. I played this one for about 45 minutes and it only got better... If not for the price ($6k) and the color, it might have followed me home. This confirmed it for me - I like the '59 neck profile...

They had an R0 also in Lemon (maybe). It played nice too - the neck was slightly chunkyer than my 1960 LP Classic (2000) but definitely slimmer than the '59.

The last guitar I played was marked as a "1958 Flametop" in a pretty faded Iced Tea. It had a 6 digit serial number starting with 88xxxx with no space after the first digit. This makes it a '58 Custom Shop made in 2008 (I think) but I have not seen a R8 with a flame maple top. The figuring was not as pronounced as the R9 but was nice. The neck was much closer to the '59 that I played than any of the 3 '58s which was also strange to me. I guess this one has been hanging in this store for over a year. It was pretty clean, maybe a few minor dings or shopwear. It played pretty nice - I spent about 15-20 minutes with it.

So I'm curious about this so-called '58 flame top with the more rounded '59 style neck. Does anyone know anything about them? Is it really an R8 or is it something else?

[Madguitarist78]

In my local guitar shop they have a flamed R8. They are also known as Cloud-9's. They are chambered reissues to my knowledge.

[FennRx]

r8s used to have flame tops, but not since 2001 (i think but dont quote me). it if was a chambered reissue 58, which would have a flame top, the serial number should start with CR XXXXX.

is it possibly a 1998 R8?

[Ride on a Pony]

Originally Posted by dbf909

They had a 50th anniversary R9 in Burnt Wheat.

Sorry, I know this doesn't help at all, but where the hell do they get these names from?

Burnt Wheat? WTF!? What next?... Poached Taint burst?

[FennRx]

Originally Posted by Ride on a Pony

Sorry, I know this doesn't help at all, but where the hell do they get these names from?

Burnt Wheat? WTF!? What next?... Poached Taint burst?

going in my sig lmao

[Boleskinehouse]

They still make flamed R8s just not very many.

[dbf909]

Yeah the color names thing is getting ridiculous. It's like picking out paint colors at Home Depot or something. I saw the Burnt Wheat name on-line. I immediately thought "Burnt Weenie". Otherwise, I've always called that color "Tobacco Sunburst". That is the color of my ES-335TD that I bought new in 1980...

As to the R8 Flametop, I'm virtually positive that it is not a 1998 model. And there is no CR in the serial number - just a standard 6 digit number. I'm pretty sure that it is not chambered.

To me the most puzzling thing is the neck profile. It is much closer to the '59 than the '58s that I played. The top is figured but only about 70% of the R9s and R0s that I've seen.

Is it plausible that they actually made it as an R9 and then re-designated it as an R8 in QA or somewhere in their process before the serial number was applied because the flame on the top was not up to true R9 standards (to command the premium price)?

[pinefd]

It's most likely a 50th anniversary model from '08, many (most?) of which were flametops (I believe). There are some stores that still have flametop R8 leftovers from last year.


Frank

[R9.]

Yup, I'd say it's either an '88 but more than likely, an '08 50th anniversary.
If there's no CR in the serial number it has a solid body.

Originally Posted by dbf909

To me the most puzzling thing is the neck profile. It is much closer to the '59 than the '58s that I played.

Is it plausible that they actually made it as an R9 and then re-designated it as an R8 in QA or somewhere in their process before the serial number was applied because the flame on the top was not up to true R9 standards (to command the premium price)?

Gibson products aren't exactly always consistent.
I've played a few R8s with thinner necks than my R9 and an R9 with a fatter neck than my R6, it was huge!!

Sure it's possible. Take an R9, paint it gold and you have an R7. They're all the same guitar.

[dwagar]

I agree, it's likely a 50th. Email the serial number to Gibson to confirm. If the price is right, you might want to snap it up.

[decoy205]

Did they make that many 50th R8's that it would have a 6 digit serial? Just curious. Also weren't the 50ths all cherrys? Not sure. Sounds like a '98 no?

[Liam]

I've played a 2009 R8 with some nice flame on the top. Reminiscent of Page's #1, although a bit more pronounced. I've been kicking myself ever since for not buying it, as it would have been a nice guitar with a little bit of setup work. Price was the same as a plain top R8 or an R7.

There are clearly some R8s out there with insufficient flame to be called an R9, but definitely not a plain top by any stretch of the imagination.

Liam

[Boleskinehouse]

Saul gets them from time to time, but he's known for odd stuff..

[970harris]

The word is Gibson had some flamed tops left over from the 50th Anniversary R8 production run toward the end of last year and went ahead and made another 40 or so 2008 R8's with flamed tops, all in a gloss finish.

I don't know if they were all made in Iced Tea, but all those I have seen pass through the MLP Forum as well as those I have seen on ebay and GBase have been Iced Tea, including the one I bought a few weeks back from Mark at Mark's Guitar Loft.

I have a long list of excuses for why I have not posted pics of her on the Forum yet, but if you want to take a peek at her, she's Item 710 on Mark's website:

Gibson Custom Shop Limited Gloss Finish 1958 Les Paul Figured Top Reissue (2008)

You'll see that the SN on my guitar, 881617, is in the same format as you've described for the one you are looking at. If it's gloss and not VOS, that's a telltale sign that it may be one of those special run 2008 R8's. Another thing you can do to verify this is to have them pull the case --- these guitars came with a wierd Lifton-style triangular case (as you'll see in Mark's series of pictures of mine).

Hope that helps...

[Guido]

I hope I don't get bashed for this, but I can not believe how people get so worked up about a 8 or 9 on a SN.

[dbf909]

Originally Posted by 970harris

You'll see that the SN on my guitar, 881617, is in the same format as you've described for the one you are looking at. If it's gloss and not VOS, that's a telltale sign that it may be one of those special run 2008 R8's. Another thing you can do to verify this is to have them pull the case --- these guitars came with a wierd Lifton-style triangular case (as you'll see in Mark's series of pictures of mine).

Hope that helps...

That guitar looks very very similar to the one I played. I could swear that the finish was VOS but I played so many that it is possible that it was gloss. I'll go see again tomorrow. I'll also ask them to pull the case. That triangular case in the pics is very cool.

The serial number was close as well - I'm pretty sure that it was 881634 or something close to that.

How's the neck on yours? More '58 or '59?

[970harris]

Originally Posted by dbf909

That guitar looks very very similar to the one I played. I could swear that the finish was VOS but I played so many that it is possible that it was gloss. I'll go see again tomorrow. I'll also ask them to pull the case. That triangular case in the pics is very cool.

The serial number was close as well - I'm pretty sure that it was 881634 or something close to that.

How's the neck on yours? More '58 or '59?

I know that the R9's are supposed to have slimmer necks than the 58's, but my own experience, and that of others on the forum, is that while you might find more guitars with fatter necks in a batch of R7s compared with a batch of R9s (with the batch of R8's falling in the middle and R0's to the "slmmer" side of the entire group), there is going be a lot of overlap between individual guitars. So you're entirely liely to find an individual R8 that may be / feel slimmer than an R9.

I've started to think about the Historic neck sizing from three vantage points:

Thickness, or the distance from the fretboard measured by laying one edge of a caliper on the fretboard and tightening the other (gently) against the back of the neck at its thickest point, both at the first and 12th frets.

Profile, which has to do with whether the neck has more of "C" (more rounded as the neck tapers into the binding) or a "D" shape (less of a smooth arc, more of a shoulder where the neck curves into the binding). (Check out this ongoing thread: Measuring a Neck for "Feel" )

Taper, which is how much variation there is in the thickness of the neck at the 1st v. the 12th frets.

From a thickness standpoint, I think mine measured out at Mark's Guitar Loft at about .925 " at the 1st and 1.01" at the 12th fret. He characterized it as a medium sized R8 neck.

The neck has a a nice rounded "C" profile that melds seamlessly into the binding. I know Gibson is advertising and others have made the point that there is a new, more rounded or "C" neck profile on the 2009 Historics, and I did have a 2005 R8 with much more pronounced shoulders. But after playing a bunch of R8s over the past couple of years it's been my impression that Gibson had been doing a much better job of trying to round off the neck shoulders since 2006 or 2007. Although the neck on this guitar is thicker than a 2009 Les Paul Double Carve (an R8 "variant") I just recently bought, I'd say the profile on this 2008 is no less rounded than the '09.

I'd also say that this R8 has a pretty modest taper compared to, say, my '06 Les Paul Special Historic, which goes from about .88" at the 1st fret to more than 1.02" at the 12th fret. (For my own playing style, I like more beef toward the nut but can do without any additional thickness up at the 12th fret and beyond, because it makes getting leverage for bends and bending to vibrato more difficult high up on the fretboard. That translates into less taper and, not surprisingly, I really like this particular neck.)

So if I had to generalize, I'd say the neck on this guitar is right in there for what you would be looking for in an R8.

Of course, it's also pretty close to what you'd be looking for in an R9 with a fatter neck....

Let us know what your additional research at Sam Ash leads to!

[dbf909]

Thanks for the info. I agree with your assessment of taper and I've been following the other post you reference as well. I like less taper as well - otherwise they get way to fat up near the body and my hands are just too small.

I did not get a chance to get by Sam Ash this weekend - too much going on. I will try and get there one night this week. I'm dying to see what kind of case this one comes with.