My new R4

[k.online]

Originally Posted by neils

Well all this Lollar talk has me itching to get those too. But I really really don't want to take any wood out. Some of you have and some haven't. Just how much closer to the strings are the Lollars (neck only is a problem) if you don't remove wood? Are we talking 1/16th" or greater. Anyone wish that had taken wood who didn't?

I didn't measure it, nor do I still have the original pickups, but we're talking minimal differences. As I said earlier, there is probably a wide variance in the depth or the routes to start with.

Originally Posted by neils

I have a Pigtail wrap coming along with their studs. I already have TonePros steel studs now but if the Pigtails fit as tight as they claim I may use the PT studs. Any adjustment is a pain with the Tonepro lockers.

I actually have gone back to the stock bridge with Tonepro studs for the time being. I agree that adjustments are a pain but once they're set, they stay put. Just experimenting...

Originally Posted by neils

So what amps are you other R4 owners using. Maybe the wrong forum but I know what we all play right here in this thread guitarwise.

Matchless Clubman, my #1 since 1996. I have had three different ones, an early Samson-era, a Randall-era and now a 2004 model. Maybe they're all slightly different but the same basic flavor. I have a Samson-era HC-30 that I rarely take out, mostly lives in my studio. I have a silverface Deluxe Reverb that I basically like but it is likely on the block now because I just bought a Matchless Lightning head. A different sound than my Clubman but still similar. I have Matchless 1x12", 2x12" and 4x10" cabs to mix it up a bit. At home, I use a newer Epiphone Valve Junior. Apparently the newer ones have better trannies than the older ones, but I have changed only the tubes (NOS RCA 12AY7 and Sylvania EL-84) and it sounds great. Also have a Lovepedal 1/2-watt battery amp that I love. Usually run either of those through my 1x12".

Originally Posted by mrkenny

Tone searching is very elusive. You know that sound you hear in your head, but don't exactly have a map to get there.

We have all wound up in pretty much the same place. New pots, new caps (usually Grey Tigers) & aftermarket P-90s. I am sure that no reputable builder is making bad pickups and all should be better than the stocks. The differences between the various quality, handmade pickups are probaly a lot less than we convince ourselves...

[johnbeloe]

Originally Posted by neils

So what amps are you other R4 owners using?

Neil

A cornell romany plus with an alnico blue - classic 50's tweed fender tone to the T!!

[captain amazing]

stop posting these R4s i'm getting a serious case of GAS!!!!!!

[Tele Jr.]

The Lollars came, I haven't had time to install them yet though. But doing a general observation of the Costello 50's vs the regular Lollar alnico V's, I can see the pole piece screws on the 50's are slightly longer than the regular alnico V's. I'm thinking this may be why more wood needs to be taken in some cases but not all...

[k.online]

Hey TJ, would you mind keeping some notes when you do the swap? Body & screw heights of the Lollar and Gibson pickups as well as the depth of the routes on your R4.

[Tele Jr.]

I'll do that.

[neils]

I'm glad this thread won't die. Soon I'll be reporting on my findings with the Pigtail bridge.

I can tell you that a Pigtail bridge is a far tighter fit in Pigtail studs than a stock historic bridge would be. A stock wrap in Pigtail studs would tilt like crazy.

I do have TonePro studs also and they can't be faulted but to have to loosen strings for every action or intonation change is a pain.

I'll have detailed measurements of studs and wraps when I report.

Neil

And yes measure all those Lollars and the stock pups you take out please.

[neils]

OK so let's keep this thread going. As promised I did a wraptail swap and stud swap. So here goes......

I had put steel TonePros studs on my '54 with the stock Gibson tail awhile ago. Sounded good, no tilting of the tail since the TP studs lock it down. I'm still finding my setup though, finding the strings I like and my Carpel can stand so action and intonation changes with TP studs is a pain. You really have to back way off on string tension to make an action change and be sure not to scratch the finish with that little wrench they supply. Then get the strings to settle back to normal in regards to their tension since they were in tune, then loosened alot and they retuned.

Anyhow. I bought the Pigtail wraptail bridge and Pigtail steel studs. So the differences....

Between the bridges (stock historic/RI and Pigtail)the PT bridge has a different shape across the top for the strings to pass over. It has a smooth "ridge" or "peak" (as the real '54 did) vs just a smooth radius of a historic bridge. See the PT site for photos or google photos of les paul jr bridges. I got a hit that had photos that BCR Greg had posted.

So weight wise I have no scale to compare the two bridges. They feel the same. The alloy that are made from may be different also. The thickness of the bridge where is slides into a stud was identical on each at .277" BCR Greg swears by these Pigtail bridges.

The studs. The '54 came with brass. A real '54 would have been steel studs. So I had TP steel studs and put in PT steel studs. Of course these are repros of a '54 so don't have a locking top. Interesting note though, The height of the opening that the bridge slips into is different.

Gibson stud .312"
Pigtail .287
TonePro locks down so nevermind.

So do the math here and the PT stud in a PT bridge has only .010" of clearance. A Gibson stud and a Pigtail bridge have .35" of clearance, over 3 times the wiggle room.

Doing the install the PT bridge in the PT studs is a very very tight fit. Like almost wonder if it was made right tight. But take into account only .010" of clearance and that each stud may not be at the same height in the guitar so that is one reason. The PT stud is the right size, the Gibson is just machined too loose.

A Gibson bridge with PT studs would also fit this tight. It is the studs that make the difference. The bridges measure the same.

So OK I could have stayed with TP locking studs but I can't believe that are locked any tighter than the PT with PT. Any difference in tone between studs locked or just really damn tight? Impossible to say. Maybe a difference in tone with the PT bridge vs stock Historic.

The real difference though is I played for 3 hours this morning. Played till my Carpel said stop please. So I've got fresh strings on. They need tuning and tweeking. A new bridge and studs. So it is kind of a fresh start.

The best part is as I'm playing I can reach down with a little allen wrench and make intonation adjustments, make action/height changes. Retune and play some more, check intonation on tuner, make an adjustment. All this w/o ever taking the guitar off my neck. All because I don't have locking studs. I'm not knocking TP stuff. But this is nice.

Pigtail studs would make any Gibson bridge a better bridge. But all Pigtail studs are steel. There is a very interesting article in the latest ToneQuest report that describes when and why you WOULDN'T want a light bridge or steel studs or combos of either. Sometimes brass studs and heavy zinc bridges are best.

Low cost upgrade would be stock Historic bridge with TP locking studs, about $40

Pigtail studs are $69 but don't lock and are way easier to get setup.

Steel studs give a brighter tone than brass studs. Light bridges are brighter than heavier bridges.

Hope this helps out.

Neil

[k.online]

Fought the urge as long as I could. Introducing the new kid... an '07 R7 Junior. Even bigger neck than my R4!!! More pics tomorrow when it's light out.

[neils]

Cool, the thread is alive, you're alive and a new guitar for you. Always a Jr fan. So yes pics and maybe some clips?

Mods? What will it get? You know you'll do something

Neil

[lewddude]

This thread defies the laws of physics!!! LOL Great guitar! Congrats!

[ronster]

I just got a 2003 R4 in perfect (really!) condition about three weeks ago. Other than moving from 10s to 11s, I plan to leave it bone stock for now, as I just LOVE it as is.

I'm running it through a Hayseed 30 (vox clone).

[mattymel]

just wanted to weigh in on my newest amp, headstrong lil king. basically a boutique BF princeton reverb clone. i have to say, so far of all my guitars, this thing kills with my R4.

really great amp if you are looking for something light that can hold it own. for 12 watts, i cant believe how loud this thing gets. must have a hotrodded tranny, because even the BFs i have played couldnt hang like this thing. awesome. wayne at headstrong is doing some good work. check him out.

interesting on the bridge talk. im thinking of making the jump to the PT.

[neils]

K, I'd be really curious to see how you think an RI Jr compares to out RI '54's in things like the resonance of the guitars unplugged. Seems all the '54's are ringing beasts.
I also wonder how the all mahogany body of the Jr compares to R4 tone. Jr's I've read sound the way they sound because they aren't routed for a second pickup and have no neck pickup to also pull at the strings. Those are supposed to be exclusive to the Jr's tone.

I haven't played lots of Gibsons but the R4 has some tones I've never heard. On all your R4's do get the same wonderful overtones on the 2nd and 3rd strings up around the 2-5th frets? 3rd string 3 fret and some nice grinding vibrato brings out some other tones that are almost like a feedback kind of tone coming out on top of the fretted note. Love that.

Keep up tuned in please.

Neil

[k.online]

The Junior is about the same weight as my R4, around 9 lbs, and is really, really resonant. Acoustically it is louder than my R4 and has a darker, honkier tone. The Junior is going to be dedicated as a slide guitar so I'll probably have a bone nut cut a touch higher than normal and strung heavy with the action quite high, around 1/8" at the last fret. I always find that a bit of overdrive or something is needed for slide to give girth and sustain so I may try a Lollar Overwound P-90 to get a little more to begin with and probably 250k pots with a Sprague for an overall darker tone.

I'll try to do some quick clips later this evening or tomorrow afternoon. I am deep in another recording project that is taking up a LOT of time. In the meantime, here's a few beauty shots. I am surprised by how red it is on the upper side where the switch would be on a normal Les Paul and those pointers have to go before I hurt myself.

[k.online]

Tone toys from the sessions:

[k.online]

Just got home from the gig. The Junior still has 11's and normal action so I played it for the entire show. Some might see one pickup as limiting but it forces you to get variation from your hands, volume and tone settings. Very interesting just how far you can stretch it.

My question is that from looking in the cavity there does not appear to be an extra capacitor or anything to keep it brighter as the volume is rolled back. After years of playing Fenders I prefer the sound to get darker as the volume is rolled back and use it to my advantage. Will 250k pots do that or is it something else?

[neils]

K, Are there 500k pots in it now? What has your Jr got for pots and cap?

Though not the same Jr. I had the Epi '57 RI Jr. with set neck. Actually a really nice guitar. Very loud and resonant. Not all that much less so than my R4.

I took out 500k pots, did the RS Vintage kit that was 500V, 250T with a Jensen .22 cap. It got darker and knowing what I know now about Jensen vs Grey Tigers you could get a sound with more edge or cut (all things being equal) with a Tiger over the Jensen. Really all depends on how dark you like your Jrs. A Tiger would be a brighter sounding choice. Still warm but with an edge teh Jensen takes off. 50's wiring of course but maybe you don't want that. That Jr had a Jon Moore +5% P90 in it. Awesome pickup.

I think the 250T pot was fine with only one pickup. I could see doing a 500T neck and a 250T bridge on an all mahogany special or something like that. But you can dial a 500 down so........

Remember also that you most likely have brass studs, steel would be brighter, brass warmer. Pigtail has steel, TonePros has steel or brass. Actual true weight of a Historic vs Pigtail tail must be within grams of each other. Actual alloy in each I have no idea.

Since I've been playing all Pigtail in my R4 now for awhile I have come to the conclusion that the fit of the Pigtail studs is every bit as tight as locked TonePros. I lost nothing. But I also changed from a stock R4 tail to a Pigtail so a pure true test it isn't.

But really it is a wonderful thing is what I gained. To be able to tweek action and intonation w/o any major loosening of the strings which to me is a variable we don't need. In fact you don't loosen the strings at all.

I've pretty much nailed what I want. I set intonation from E to E, then tweeked with E and B strings. Played chords (D, A, C) and checked tuning/intonation at 2nd and 3rd frets while chording. Then I make a slight adjustment on the high string side of the tail. Still maybe a little sharp on G string at 3rd fret for instance. Tune and play. I pretty much have things in tune where they need to be even if technically you could say they aren't. It works. Nut/string height is great. I'd never want less. These tails are a compromise but sound great.

I had the adjustable Pigtail on the Jr and it is superb. Never did a A/B between a fixed PT and the adjustable PT but I kinda think that some of the magic tone of a simple one piece bridge is the fact that it is one piece. There aren't any extra pieces to suck string vibration from the body.

Point is the tone is there and the ease of adjustment is too.

Neil

[k.online]

That's not really what I am asking about, Neil. I am asking about when you roll the volume control back. Some guitars get warmer, high end being rolled off. Some guitars get thinner, low end being rolled off. I always thought that some kind of capacitor was needed to keep the brightness but there doesn't seem to be one on the Junior. I want the guitar to get darker as the volume is rolled off. I set the amp for my lead tone then roll back for rhythm.

I guess I am going to have to do some homework...

[mattymel]

the RS 250 grey tigers i put in my R4 roll off on the treb a little. not as much as the original stock "BB"s did, which was just too muddy even for rhythm. for me, i kind of want more treble out of the roll, but for now im in no rush to try something else. im too busy with speaker and tele obsessing at the moment.

[tigerfan22001]

I'd really like to hear some clips of that junior, especially with a slide.

[neils]

K, If you want darker when you roll off volume you'd want modern wiring of the tone cap then right? The '50's wiring we all believe retains treble as the volume is rolled off.

The wiring diagram that came with my RS Jr. Vintage kit has the cap from the outside lug of the tone pot to the center of the volume pot. How is yours wired?

Neil

[BoxyBrown22]

Wow, R4 and Jr? Awesome set man awesome, I'm quite jealous...

Really, amazing set up man I'd love to hear those tones...

And what do you think of the AD30? I'm thinking of buying one in the next couple of months...

[k.online]

Originally Posted by neils

The wiring diagram that came with my RS Jr. Vintage kit has the cap from the outside lug of the tone pot to the center of the volume pot. How is yours wired?

Mine has the stock Bumblebee from the centre lug on the tone pot to the outside of the volume. Strange...

Originally Posted by BoxyBrown22

Wow, R4 and Jr? Awesome set man awesome, I'm quite jealous...

Really, amazing set up man I'd love to hear those tones...

And what do you think of the AD30? I'm thinking of buying one in the next couple of months...

Thanks. I have wanted a Junior for a while and this one came along at a good deal so I snagged it.

The Matchless gear in the photo is mine and I love it, as is the Epiphone. The Vibro-King and AD-140 belong to a friend of mine. Neither is really my thing at all but they add nice variation to songs with multiple guitar parts.

[neils]

K, so then your Jr is wired modern. Wire it as I described mine was. Takes minutes to do and see if you like it. That "Bee" is likely really the fake Gibson Bee and is really a ceramic inside and not really paper in oil. I had fake Bees in my R4. The Tigers and Jensens are smoother. A 'Luxx Bee is the same as a "Luxx Tiger inside. They just look different.

Tigers are sold in pairs only I think but you could try Jensens. RS sells them in single. And they come in .15, 22 and .47 for more options. And there are lots of other paper in oil caps out there. Nice think about a Jr is there is only one of everything.

Neil

[k.online]

I just ordered an RS Junior kit. 500k pot for volume, 250k for tone and a Jensen .022 cap. I'll do some proper clips before and after, then I will decide if I will make a pickup change or not. In the meantime, I will work on string guage and action. It's interesting to think in terms of setting up a guitar purely for slide without compromising for normal playing.

[k.online]

Just saw 'It Might Get Loud' tonight. Overall, my suspicions were confirmed. Too much 'tech' for the average person, not enough to truly satisfy 'us'. In an effort to appeal to everyone you really end up not truly appealing to anyone.

That said, my impression of Jack White was neither raised nor lowered. He's basically got something cool going on. I really like the Raconteurs. The Edge is a master of what he does. Anyone with the attitude of 'it's all just effects' has clearly never tried to do it. The Edge has one instrument in his hands and another at his feet... and that's really, really hard to do.

Page absolutely blew me away. There is a scene of him alone, early in the film, where he is playing 'Ramble On' on his old Les Paul. His tone is utterly fucking INCREDIBLE!!!

Then there is the scene where Page starts playing 'Whole Lotta Love' while both Jack and Edge, and everyone in the theatre, have to pick their jaws up off the ground... ;-)

[neils]

That movie was here and I missed it. It is in NYC now and that is a 50 minute train ride for me so I ought to do that. Matt Umanov Guitars is also sort of in that part of toen and some of the best Pizza in NYC at John's on Bleeker is too. Sounds like a trip is in order right?

Neil

K, get that RS kit in the JR yet?

[k.online]

Yup, and Grimaldi's in Brooklyn. Mmmmm... pizza.

When I lived in Montréal I used to make the trip to NYC at least once a month. I'd drive to Poughkeepsie, about five hours, then take the train from there, another hour and a half. If I was only a 50 minute train ride away I'd be there constantly!

The RS kit hasn't arrived yet but I promise I will do before and after clips.

[mattymel]

a bit off the "original" topic (though i think its safe to say we are past that), but my friend has let me borrow his Custom R4 while he is roadying for a band. im liking it alot. the goldtop R4 has way more spank to it, but the mahogany body/ebony board is an interesting combo. the alnico V neck PU definitely has more snarl to it that my lollars.