My new R4

[k.online]

Originally Posted by Horse

thats great, id be there! i love these babies, and youre right they need their own site

I still don't know what I am going to do with it, or when I'll find the time, so we'll see. Still, I am open to suggestions.

Originally Posted by Tele Jr.

K, Much of what is intriguing me most is related to the way the wrap bridge will sympathetically vibrate the other strings.

Digging in or backing off will control the amount of of sympathetic bleed and tone melt between the strings. When doing things like arpeggiated figures, you can control the amount of melting together or separation between the notes by altering the touch.

This also means what we have here is a much less forgiving but also much more potentially expressive tone machine.

I'm recalling now the Tone Quest report where they indicated as duly notable how the vintage wrap bridge on the test guitar didn't seem to ring out like it should or would have been expected to do. So I'm sort of wondering now if this isn't something that varies with each wraptail LP, part of the character of each piece. My '07 seems to be doing it righteous for me like that, sometimes it almost seems like it's chambered or something but it's a little different sort of sustaining ring coming from the bridge vs my CR7.

Character, alchemy, voodoo, vibe... whatever you want to call it. I have played four Historic wraptail guitars recently. A single-cut Junior, two double-cut Specials, and mine, of course. All were different, but all had that je ne sais quoi...

You have previously mentioned a few mods. Have you changed the electronics or bridge...? I was a little disappointed when I adjusted the action, nearly all the plating peeled off the post. I may try the Pigtail bridge and posts as long as I can confirm that I don't have to change the bushing inserts. That's a little more surgery than I am comfortable with right now.

[Tele Jr.]

No mods to the electronics so far other than to tweak the pups.

My pigtail parts came but they sent the wrong stuff, I got the tailpiece for a 50's standard instead of the 54/Jr/Special with the adjustment screws.

I was going to just send this one back to get the right one and the wife suggested I should keep it to try on one of my other historics and just order another set of parts for the R4 so I guess that's what I'm going to do.

I haven't done the change yet, but I'm pretty sure the pigtail studs will fit fine in the historic bushings. They sell the studs and bushings together so you get both if you use them or not. My plan so far is to use the studs but not the bushings. The main issue with the pigtail studs/bushings is to order them cut to historic length or not.

[Mr Insane]

nice guitar

[Tele Jr.]

Well, I just couldn't resist the overwhelming temptation to try the pigtail parts on the R4 despite the lack of intonation screws on the tailpiece. Much to my astonishment with my string set and tuning to E flat like I usually do it intonated perfectly on every string. Do you believe some things are meant to be?

So the studs fit right into the historic bushings no problem.

The bridge and studs fit perfect and sound great, warmer and woodier sounding with more dynamic range to dig into. Playability also improved greatly as my stock bridge parts did not fit great and it had a fair amount of lean going on. Still rings great but with notably more separation between notes.

The stock R4 kind of gets all grown up with the added pigtail parts, these parts are several orders of magnitude higher quality vs the stock bridge parts and well worth the investment.

[neils]

Did you have to post that? Now R4 parts GAS begins.

I had the adjustable Pig wraptail on Jr. and it was excellent.

Neil

[mattymel]

so what is the deal with this tonepros tailpiece i hear people talking about? could this be my next upgrade? as i feared the intonation thing has snuck in my brain a bit. not that bad, but i might sleep better at night with these locking tailpiece things people talk about. anybody got anything to say about the tonepros VTNA tailpiece? i have heard people talk about the wilkinson tail but it looks kind of nerdy compared to the simplicity of the stock gibson. the VTNA looks the same as far as i can tell, which is what is tempting me.

[neils]

Tele Jr, Can you weigh the stock Gibson wraptail? Since Pigtail make such a deal out of the very light, very authentic vintage weight of theirs it would be cool to see the weight of the stock piece. And is that stock tail steel? Does a magnet stick? Vintage real stuff would be alloy right?

Neil

[Bluesdj]

Any chance of a pic of the mounted Pigtail or is it very close in appearance to the Gib-o?
Thanks,

[Tele Jr.]

Originally Posted by neils

Tele Jr, Can you weigh the stock Gibson wraptail? Since Pigtail make such a deal out of the very light, very authentic vintage weight of theirs it would be cool to see the weight of the stock piece. And is that stock tail steel? Does a magnet stick? Vintage real stuff would be alloy right?

Neil

I don't have a scale appropriate to weight it on but it's pretty light, I don't think the issue is as much the weight of the stock part as much the quality of the materials, the shape, and the fit and finish.

I think the stock T/P and studs are nickel plated brass, The T/P does attract a magnet but only ever so slightly, I think it may be the metal is non ferrous and it's the plating that attracts the magnet. The pigtail stuff is definitely ferrous metal and pulls a magnet very hard, which I believe is more vintage correct.

Originally Posted by Bluesdj

Any chance of a pic of the mounted Pigtail or is it very close in appearance to the Gib-o?
Thanks,

I don't have a mounted pic yet, it looks almost the same but it has more of a V shape over the ridge where the strings go over. You kind of have to get in kind of close to eyeball that or you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Originally Posted by mattymel

so what is the deal with this tonepros tailpiece i hear people talking about? could this be my next upgrade? as i feared the intonation thing has snuck in my brain a bit. not that bad, but i might sleep better at night with these locking tailpiece things people talk about. anybody got anything to say about the tonepros VTNA tailpiece? i have heard people talk about the wilkinson tail but it looks kind of nerdy compared to the simplicity of the stock gibson. the VTNA looks the same as far as i can tell, which is what is tempting me.

As much as I'm sold on the pigtail stuff I'm also very open minded about trying other high quality alternatives as well. In particular I am interested in pigtail quality or better but made of high quality nickel plated brass. I have a request for a quote from pigtail to make a brass one but I don't know if they will do it.

[k.online]

I helped a friend of mine buy a guitar today since he trusts my ears. In the end, he bought the R6 that I had considered when I bought my R4. Essentially the same guitar with a different bridge. I think mine has nicer mahogany (no bias... really) but otherwise the neck shape, angle and all other details are pretty much there. After bringing it over to my place and restringing it with 11's, we sat down to really compare. The Tune-O-Matic is definitely warmer and more 'controlled' while the wraptail has more 'wheee' factor. It's just so snappy and 'immediate'. Quite different, but I actually like both quite a bit and will definitely be borrowing his in the studio for some not-as-subtle-as-you-might-think variation.

Nonetheless, as much as I might like his R6, I chose the right guitar for me.

I'll post photos of the 'twins' soon.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by k.online

I helped a friend of mine buy a guitar today since he trusts my ears. In the end, he bought the R6 that I had considered when I bought my R4. Essentially the same guitar with a different bridge. I think mine has nicer mahogany (no bias... really) but otherwise the neck shape, angle and all other details are pretty much there. After bringing it over to my place and restringing it with 11's, we sat down to really compare. The Tune-O-Matic is definitely warmer and more 'controlled' while the wraptail has more 'wheee' factor. It's just so snappy and 'immediate'. Quite different, but I actually like both quite a bit and will definitely be borrowing his in the studio for some not-as-subtle-as-you-might-think variation.

Nonetheless, as much as I might like his R4, I chose the right guitar for me.

I'll post photos of the 'twins' soon.

thats really interesting info on the difference in sounds, thanks bro. can you post a sound comparison sometime?

[k.online]

Originally Posted by Horse

thats really interesting info on the difference in sounds, thanks bro. can you post a sound comparison sometime?

I am planning to attempt to record the differences. I'll post them here...

[k.online]

The lack of posting should give an idea of how happy I am with the R4. That said, let the mods begin...!!!

A guitar tech friend of mine cut a beautiul new bone nut (the stock nut was disappointing) and rewired with in-spec CTS pots and RS Grey Tigers. I have ordered a Pigtail bridge and a Lollar '50s wind for the neck. I will measure the two stock pickups and put the weaker of the two in the bridge position. As I have said, I like the bridge to be quite a bit hotter than the neck. For blues, I mainly use the neck or middle position, and for classic rock I usually stay on the bridge most of the night. Either way, I really ride the volumes.

Back to playing...

[mattymel]

damn...let me know about those lollars once those are in. been thinking of that leap from day one. for now i am living day + 3 with the luxe grey tigers and new pots and am pleased for now.

[Tele Jr.]

K, do you think the rewire made a significant difference? I'm digging the pigtail bridge and studs big time. I tweaked up the poles on the treble strings a bit after installing it and now the stock pups are sounding better than ever, but the Lollars are still calling my name...

[neils]

I finally did a a couple of things to mine. Just redid it as '50's wiring. I already have BB's. Pots are still stock.

I installed TonePro locking studs. I got steel studs and not whatever the other ones offered are made of. Brass? FWIW the TonePros stick hard to a magnet and the stock studs have no attraction at all. The stock bridge is very light but I have no scale. It also has no attraction to a magnet at all.

K, both my pickups measure the same 7.9K at the input jack. I raised my bridge a bit with some wood strips/shims. Just went up 50 thousanths, not alot. I like the tone better with the pole screws turned in and not up too high.

Also interested in your Lollar news. So you got the "Costello" neck pickup right?

Neil

[joek86]

Guys,

I just got a brand new '07 R4 GT. I would like to try a set of Thorn P90's that I already own but the stock pups are mounted dead against the wood w/o springs. Are your guits like that too? Are the Lollars thicker than the stocker like the thorns are? If they are, did you route or did they just end up closer to the strings?

~Joe

[k.online]

Originally Posted by Tele Jr.

K, do you think the rewire made a significant difference? I'm digging the pigtail bridge and studs big time. I tweaked up the poles on the treble strings a bit after installing it and now the stock pups are sounding better than ever, but the Lollars are still calling my name...

The rewire made pretty much no difference when all four knobs are at full. At any other setting, the difference is huge. The volumes and tones have a much more usable range.

Originally Posted by neils

K, both my pickups measure the same 7.9K at the input jack. I raised my bridge a bit with some wood strips/shims. Just went up 50 thousanths, not alot. I like the tone better with the pole screws turned in and not up too high.

Also interested in your Lollar news. So you got the "Costello" neck pickup right?

Yes, I ordered the Costello neck. I'll see how it works out before deciding on a bridge pickup. I like the bridge a lot hotter than the neck. For example, my favourite Tele has a 5.6k neck and a 7.4k bridge. I'll probably end up with the stock Lollar bridge, but we'll see.

Originally Posted by joek86

Guys, I just got a brand new '07 R4 GT. I would like to try a set of Thorn P90's that I already own but the stock pups are mounted dead against the wood w/o springs. Are your guits like that too? Are the Lollars thicker than the stocker like the thorns are? If they are, did you route or did they just end up closer to the strings?

I will have the guitar routed so the Lollars are dead against the wood as well.

[neils]

K, Do you know for sure you'll need to route? Are Lollars taller than stock? Mine like yours are screwed right into and against the wood.

Neil

[johnbeloe]

for anyone interested in the lollars I just wacked some in my r6 - they sound KILLER!

heres a quick vid

YouTube - Tweed Tone with Lollar P90's

YouTube - Tweed Tone with Lollar P90's

[k.online]

Originally Posted by neils

K, Do you know for sure you'll need to route? Are Lollars taller than stock? Mine like yours are screwed right into and against the wood.

No, I don't know for sure that you need to route but am prepared for the possibility. Perhaps johnbeloe can help...?

[neils]

Yes and also which Lollars are we listening to, regular or "Costello" Lollars.

My guess is they just fit fine.

Neil

[johnbeloe]

Originally Posted by neils

Yes and also which Lollars are we listening to, regular or "Costello" Lollars.

My guess is they just fit fine.

Neil

hey - I think these are the regular 50's lollars rather than the costellos - just got them from charlie chandlers and this is what they sent me!

On the install question - they just dropped straight in, no mods at all. Pickups balance and height seems pretty much spot on...they are a tad higher than the stock historic pickups, but I like my action fairly high so its just perfect for me...anyway, these things sound best pretty close in my opinion...as I'm sure you probably know you can have p90's MUCH closer to the strings than humbuckers

[lewddude]

anyone use the costello p-90's?

[Kramble]

Yep.

[Tele Jr.]

Joek86,

Welcome and congrats on the '07 score.

K, Waiting to hear more perspectives on some of your mods that are in play now.

I'm sure that after changing out my stock bridge parts for the pigtail stuff that I can hear the sound of that stock T/P on my TOM historics now.

[joek86]

Originally Posted by Tele Jr.

Joek86,

Welcome and congrats on the '07 score.

K, Waiting to hear more perspectives on some of your mods that are in play now.

I'm sure that after changing out my stock bridge parts for the pigtail stuff that I can hear the sound of that stock T/P on my TOM historics now.

Thanks Tele Jr

[k.online]

Originally Posted by Tele Jr.

Waiting to hear more perspectives on some of your mods that are in play now.

The volume and tone knobs are so much more usable now. With the stock volumes into a Sun Face, there was a major jump down from 10 to 9.5 on the volume then smooth-ish from there. Now it is totally smooth with no real humps. The stock tone did pretty much nothing from 10 down to about 3. Now the tone is pretty subtle down to 7, then the full range kicks in. The Tigers sound really nice, more 'vocal' than the stock Bees.

I have received the Lollar and the Pigtail but I am in the middle of a recording project right now and don't want to have any down time. I can get great tones from both pickups in the studio, but live I find if I set the amp for bridge then the neck is too thick, set it for the neck and the bridge is too thin. Can't get a balance I like. I think I'll order a Lollar bridge as well and just do the whole thing at once when this project is over.

I'll also pull some samples and post them.

[lewddude]

Originally Posted by k.online

.


I'll also pull some samples and post them.

That would be sweet! Thanx.

[k.online]

Forgive me father, it's been several weeks since my last confession. Oh wait... ;-)

All mods are now done. Bone nut, pro fret dress and setup, Pigtail bridge and studs, Lollar 'Costello' P-90 in the neck, standard Lollar P-90 in the bridge, CTS pots and RS Grey Tigers. In short, it is perfect...!!! Open and airy in the neck, nice and raunchy on the bridge, smooth volume and tone controls. The Pigtail bridge is feather light and added some additional jangle and acoustic volume to the guitar.

I have lowered my action significantly in an attempt to get me playing with a lighter touch and more dynamics. I tend to play very hard live and tense up accordingly. Playing four or five nights a week combined with extensive mouse use on my recent recording project has unfortunately left me with pretty severe cases of carpal tunnel syndrome in my right hand and tendonitis in my left. Along with physio and massage therapy, I am currently wearing sports braces on both my wrists at all times I am not actually playing. My trio has now added a keyboard player (with a real Hammond!!!) to fill in the sound so I can back off chording a bit. If it gets any worse I'll bring in another guitar player and do a BB King-style sing > play a lick > sing. It's a real bummer... and very painful.