My new R4

[neils]

Tele Jr

Thanks for that link.


Off topic. I want to post photos larger than I just did. I have larger files but every time I try to upload them I'm told they are too big. So what are you guys doing to get a larger photo posted? I'm not linking from some url, just uploading.

I'll want to show my R4 when I get it.

Neil

[k.online]

Originally Posted by Tele Jr.

How cool is that?

It was such a cool feeling to know that I picked such a good one. I played ALL day today... ;-)

Originally Posted by neils

Off topic. I want to post photos larger than I just did. I have larger files but every time I try to upload them I'm told they are too big. So what are you guys doing to get a larger photo posted? I'm not linking from some url, just uploading.

I'll want to show my R4 when I get it.

Neil

My ISP gives me 10MB of webspace so I am hosting photos there and linking to them. You can do the same thing with Photobucket and whatnot but I find it easier to simply FTP them up. That said, I am a web designer and developer...

[neils]

Well I'll try photos again. I can't remember ever posting such poor tiny shots before.

k.online, Did you get the shots of the Jr I sent you?

Neil

[k.online]

Originally Posted by neils

Well I'll try photos again. I can't remember ever posting such poor tiny shots before.

k.online, Did you get the shots of the Jr I sent you?

Neil

I got the photos you sent. Beautiful guitar but I am going to pass. There ain't nothin' wrong with what I got and I'm going to stick with it for a while... a good long while.

[LesPaulFanatic]

Congrats on your new r4s, k.online and neils. I was looking for an r4 when I got my r6, but couldn't justify the extra dough the seller wanted for it. I can't really complain as I got a killer r6 that's now broken in, and I'll never sell it. But if a nice r4 comes my way, I might not be able to pass on it..

Again, enjoy your new axes!

[k.online]

This R4 continues to slay me. I fall more and more in love everytime I pick it up. Of course, it still doesn't stop me from jonesing for a Junior... ;-)

I have a feeling that the stock P-90's are not all they could be. Anyone try the Lollar 50's winds...?

[LesPaulFanatic]

Originally Posted by k.online

This R4 continues to slay me. I fall more and more in love everytime I pick it up. Of course, it still doesn't stop me from jonesing for a Junior... ;-)

I have a feeling that the stock P-90's are not all they could be. Anyone try the Lollar 50's winds...?

LOVE them in my r6. If you're looking for Freddie King or Hubert Sumlin tones, I'd seriously consider them. They are lower in output than a Gibson or Fralin. I think the bridge can be a bit thin sounding, but once you get it dialed in (pickup height/polepiece height) I haven't noticed it much.

Good caps and pots are a must IMO. I always do this before considering a pickup swap. I like the RS Guitarworks Vintage kit, and put it in all my lesters, plus luxe grey tiger and bumblebee paper-in-oil caps..

A bit strange, but my historic junior keeps me jonesing for a goldtop r4..

[k.online]

Thanks. I found some info and have decided to order a Lollar 50's neck. I tend to prefer a much greater difference between neck and bridge pickups than most stock sets offer, and I am certain that a 7.4K bridge isn't going to work for me with a 7.1K neck. I'll try dropping the Lollar in with the stock bridge and if that doesn't work, I'll try the stock neck PU in the bridge position. If I am not happy with either of those combos then I'll contact Jason Lollar about winding me a custom bridge PU.

As far as the components, my R4 came with Bumblebees and the pots and switch look like quality parts. I could see the RS kits being a huge upgrade over a Standard, but is it really necessary on a Historic...?

[LesPaulFanatic]

In my opinion, yes. RS pots have higher tolerance, which means the pots' values are more consistent than regular cts pots from what I understand. Gibsons bumblebee caps are also (although ok caps) nothing like the 50s caps. Gibson also use linear taper pots which along with modern wiring does not give me good enough control over the pots, IMO. Too much on-off for me as I use the volume controls a lot. I've got rs kits in my three historic les pauls, and would not go back.

If you are happy with the controls on your guitar, I'd just leave it as is. My tip is to try the 50s wiring. If you like it, the rs kit will be a nice improvement.

[neils]

I don't have my R4 yet. Tomorrow maybe? When I played it last week I found when both pickups are on that adjustments to the neck volume knob made wonderful changes in tone.

I get those same changes in my now for sale Epi '56 RI Goldtop and that guitar has RS Vintage parts, Grey Tigers and '50's wiring. Makes me think that the R4 may already have '50's wiring? Can't wait to open it up and find out!

Neil

[Tele Jr.]

Having done a fair amount of P-90 pup tweaking with Fender Tele Jr's, I was very curious about how the stock pups would react to being raised a bit. I tried shimming them up to various levels, long story short I got a bit more output of course but lost a lot of the nuance.

I ended up putting them right back down to where they started, and was able to sort of identify an extra organic musical quality that they have that went away when they were set too high. The whole exercise really reinforced how much I really like the sound of the stock instrument pretty much as it sets up out of the box.

I have some pigtail parts on order and I'm going to see how that changes the stock rig before I do anything with the pups.

The Lollars sound so tempting it's almost more of a matter of which ones to start with. I've heard that at least with some Lollar sets you might have to rout the body a bit to get them set up right?

[neils]

Well I just got back from playing my soon to be R4. It was plugged into a Fender Deville I think it was. God what a tone and I already have 2 P90 guitars so it ain't my first exposer to P90's. I was playing politely as there was a student in the next practice room but the manager insisted we hear a nice loud woman tone before I left. Yea man we got that! Cranked the Deville and made some nice warm loud noises from the neck pickup.

I was told there might be some Bumble Bee caps in it the last owner put in. I'm not sure what would have been stock in it anyway.

It just sounds so good! It needs strings and some adjustment so it will only get better.

As for Pigtail stuff? I have there adjustable alloy bridge/tail in a Epi RI Jr I have (for sale) Excellent stuff. Really really nice wrap tail. I'm toying with the idea of taking that Pigtail wraptail out of the Jr and keeping it for the '54 in case I need it. As it is the intonation seems very close in the '54 and this is one guitar I don't want to tear apart and replace everything. It kinda seems like I should leave it alone, of course as long as it sounds the way I want I might. Notice I said "might"

If I can nail the intonation with the stock RI wrap I would maybe get the Pigtail vintage wraptail.

Monday, I get it Monday.

Neil

[k.online]

Hey TJ, I finally dug up some photos. In the "d'oh" category of life, back in 1999 I owned Custom Shop Set-Neck Tele Jr. #008 of 150. Really wish I'd hung onto that one. Be a perfect second beside my R4. I don't miss the DC-30, now on the road with Sheryl Crow I believe, since I really love my Clubman & it's a hell of a lot easier to move around a head & 2x12" than that beast of a combo. In a roadcase the DC-30 was creeping onto 150 lbs...!!!





neils, can't wait to see it...!!!

[neils]

K, Hey man it looks just like yours! But I can't wait to see it in the house. I wonder if my wife will notice that the gold guitar on the stand looks different?

Neil

[Tele Jr.]

WHOA! K, that is one mofo of a Tele Jr, it looks like it has some subtle figure to it. That thing with a DC-30, tasty stuff indeed.

[k.online]

Originally Posted by Tele Jr.

I ended up putting them right back down to where they started, and was able to sort of identify an extra organic musical quality that they have that went away when they were set too high.

it actually makes a lot of sense that the pickups would sound better in direct contact with the wood.

Originally Posted by Tele Jr.

The Lollars sound so tempting it's almost more of a matter of which ones to start with.

I was all set to order a 50's wind neck but I fear it may be a bit too Fender-y for me. I still want the pickup to be able to bully the amp around a bit. That's pretty much what many of us love about P-90's. I think a stock Lollar bridge and an underwound neck may be the ticket. At 7.7K, the underwound is halfway between the stock and the 50's wind.

[Tele Jr.]

Normally with Fender single coils I like them high enough where it will start to compress a bit, with P-90's I think adding anything but a slight bit of compression can destroy the nuance. So I'm confident now that the stock set up is right in the sweet spot where it should be.

I'd love to try all the Lollars, a drawer full of those please! As much as I like the stock Gibson pups I have heard so many raves about the Lollars, also his relationship with Sean Costello gives him the ultimate cred imho. Right now I'm intrigued with the notion of how a Lollar alnico V set would sound in a good CR4.

[neils]

Well my R4 has come home!!! It needs me. It needs strings and a lubed nut as what is there now "pings" when I tune it. The action was really low so I've already dialed it up a full turn on wraptail. Much better. And still the intonation is so close to right on my Petersen I'm surprised.

I looked. It has "bees" for caps but they may have been added by the last owner I was told. So I don't know who made them or how real they are. There is yellow cloth over their bare wires is that is a clue.

I have to double check but I believe it is '50's wiring already. Cap is from middle lug on tone to end lug on volume. I have to check the wiring diagram sticky on the Tonefreaks.

Gotta go eat now, I'll be back. Oh and photos? It looks just like k-onlines R4.

Neil

[neils]

OK back, so it isn't '50's wiring, it's modern. What about you other R4 owners, got "Bees"? '50's or modern wiring?

I won't get a chance to even plug this thing in tonight but I did play it twice at the store. Sounded good to me. I'm going to try to refrain from changing everything on this guitar. No no really ;-)

I see on another thread what Historic/Reissue owners are changing. I did all that already to the Epi '56 GT I'm selling. It all works no doubt but I need to play the hell out of this first.

I'll do photos this weekend.

Neil

[k.online]

Congrats, Neil. What are you plugging into? Effects, amp?

[neils]

I just back into playing after a 20yr layoff. I had no amp and I only need small so I got a Blackheart 5w Class and 12" cabinet. I changed out the tubes and I seem to have settled on a Mullard el84 and 5751, (can't remember, Sovtek?) for the preamp side. A 12at7 gives me more clean but then I don't like it when I let the tubes do the distortion. The 5751 and a good 12ax7 sound better for that.

Pedals I run an OCD that I really like. I have an MI Audio Crunch Box. Very very nice and about 1000 times more distortion that I need BUT even when dialed back it is full of great overtones and harmonics. You hear all kinds of colors when you let a note or a chord ring out. It is very midrange voiced and makes for a killer woman tone.

I keep the drive low on both. When I run both the OCD in to the MI it is Leslie West WFO at the Filmore. The OCD adds sparkle to the mid heavy MI Crunch.

I have an MXR Carbon Copy I like to open up the sometimes too dry sound. I have an EH Electric Mistress I hardly ever use. I like it but I guess I'm not the phasey/flangy guy I was back in the '80's

I really want to play this R4 into my brothers Dr Z Maz 18.

I REALLY want to be able to plug into my own stuff too. Very heavy serious schoolwork/writing against deadline going on in the house last night for any guitar plaing to happen.

Neil

[Tele Jr.]

I don't recall exactly where it came up but I do recall someone recently indicating the wraptail bridge didn't produce the sustain of a TOM. Well, I thought of that when I recently read this excerpt from ToneQuest Dec '08;

"The ‘54 Goldtop with wraparound tailpiece minus the tune-o-matic is by its very nature and exceptionally resonant and vibey guitar, due in large part to its much lighter string tension, which encourages longer sustain. You might think the opposite is true – that higher tension = longer sustain and enhanced resonance, but it just ain’t so."

[neils]

I read the same thing in TQ report. The tone and sustain of Les Paul Jr.s is often mentioned in comparison to other Les Pauls and I often read that the simple wrap tail is a big part of the picture.

If nothing else the wrap is one piece of resonating metal fastened to the body. I love the adjustable Pigtail wraptail on my Epi '57 RI but is several parts like at least 7 just counting the saddles and the bridge itself. It seems logical that one solid mass is better than 7 plus pieces.

As long as I can get my R4 intonated with a one piece wraptail it stays, well maybe the groovy killer Pigtail repro wraptail.

Neil

[k.online]

Originally Posted by Tele Jr.

I don't recall exactly where it came up but I do recall someone recently indicating the wraptail bridge didn't produce the sustain of a TOM. Well, I thought of that when I recently read this excerpt from ToneQuest Dec '08;

"The ‘54 Goldtop with wraparound tailpiece minus the tune-o-matic is by its very nature and exceptionally resonant and vibey guitar, due in large part to its much lighter string tension, which encourages longer sustain. You might think the opposite is true – that higher tension = longer sustain and enhanced resonance, but it just ain’t so."

I can't help think those who say the wraptail doesn't intonate or sustain well enough simply hasn't used one. IMO, a P-90 wraptail LP and a PAF Tune-O-Matic LP are completely different animals, as different as a Strat is from a Tele. I guess you either get it or you don't... and I fucking love it.

Originally Posted by neils

I read the same thing in TQ report. The tone and sustain of Les Paul Jr.s is often mentioned in comparison to other Les Pauls and I often read that the simple wrap tail is a big part of the picture.

If nothing else the wrap is one piece of resonating metal fastened to the body. I love the adjustable Pigtail wraptail on my Epi '57 RI but is several parts like at least 7 just counting the saddles and the bridge itself. It seems logical that one solid mass is better than 7 plus pieces.

As long as I can get my R4 intonated with a one piece wraptail it stays, well maybe the groovy killer Pigtail repro wraptail.

I have looked at both the Pigtail and Tonepros bridges. Changing the posts is no big deal but do you have to change the bushings? That's pretty major surgery.

[neils]

I just used TonePro locking studs and the Pigtail on my Epi '57 using the stock Epi inserts. Pulling the inserts is more than I'd have done on that guitar and frankly I wouldn't do it on my R4 either.

I also did the same on my Epi '56 RI Tonepro studs and Gotoh alloy tailpiece. All that stuff still works as far as I'm concerned and I could see Tonepro studs on the R4 with whatever wraptail stock or otherwise. I guess we could assume the inserts on the R4 are better quality than either of my Epiphone Reissues.

As I said though if I can nail intonation with a one piece wraptail I'd go Tonepro studs and may the Pigtail repro wraptail.

Neil

[mattymel]

man konline, thats crazy. i was psyched to see someone writing about the '54 VOS (since it seems like kind of a rarity here amongst les paulophyles), muchless someone that JUST bought one IN SEATTLE!? i live in seattle too AND bought a 2008 '54 VOS from american music in fremont on may the 4th! where did you get your's?
i feel like its a crazy thing with the R4. i never thought i would want a goldtop. just not me. too old school. then i saw the R4 and was like "wha?!" it was like a siren. honestly, i didnt even notice the wraparound. i was like, "that guitar is...cool looking". then i plugged it into an amp and that was it. my theory...the wraparound is the soul of the '54. take that away (even with the p90s) and you have another les paul. add the p90s AND the wraparound and i would describe it basically as the fattest sounding fender guitar that was never designed. with a classy les paul resemblance. and maybe its just me, but i am actually pretty OCD about tuning...the R4 wraparound is totally legit compared to the R9, or any other guitar i have ever owned. so far so good.
konline, im just getting started. i just got my R9 the RS "vintage" pots and caps and am definitely doing the same for the R4. i would say absolutely try that first. i was thinking the SAME EXACT thing with trading out the lollars for my R9's burstbuckers. i tried 50s wiring first. if you can solder...its free! it was a noticeable improvement. then the RS stuff...i honestly dont know how it could sound any better. or at least, i will live with it for a minute because combined with the 50s wiring, it is a HUGE improvement. if you knew me, you would see that this is a pretty momentous proclamation as i am ALWAYS looking for the next step. basically, if it could sound better i would totally freak out...i would describe the 50s wiring/RS stuff like having an entire pallete of colors as opposed to 3. the modern wiring with stock gibson (fake) bumblebees goes like this: sounds pretty good turned all the way up for neck/mid/bridge toggled. but if you like to roll down volume to clean up a cranked amp (in the way that any TRUE les paul player should (it kind of defines the WHOLE guitar IMHO)) you get bassy mud past 7. right about the setting that the amp should start to clean up. I.E...lame. best $70 i have spent for guitar stuff ever. in fact it would be best $200 if not for my Weber Bluedog.
that being said, if you go with the lollars i would love to get together and AB these badboys. and yes, we are some luckyFs. the R4 is a completely different animaLP. like i said, i have a R9 and i feel like it is a perfect complement. all the things i cant do with the R9 the R4 kills. R4!!!! i had to stop myself from using smiley faces at the end there.

[neils]

Hi Mattymel, Hey so you took Bee's out of your R4 right? I bought my R4 from a small shop (from John Mayers's teachers shop) and it was there on consignment. He told me the last owner puts Bee's in it. So my question, do you remember if your Bee's had yellow insulation pushed over the bare wires on those Bee's? I'm just wondering if these are the OE bee's or someone elses "real" Bee's.

I did an RS kit in my soon to be sold (I hope) Epi 56 RI. I asked Billy at RS what he would use for this P90 guitar. He sent Grey Tigers, 500V and 250T pots. Yea 250's not 500's like all the other kits. In hindsight while it was all a great improvement, so much so there is no need for a pickup change unless you just gotta do it, I though maybe the neck pup went a little too dark, too middy. Now maybe a 500T pot would have cleared that up or .15 cap.

You got 500 T+V in your kit? You went with Bee's and not Tigers?


I haven't played my R4 enough yet as I just got it Tuesday. Wouldn't it be funny if my RS'd '56 Epi sounded better in some ways than the R4? That's a comparison I need to do.

Neil

[Tele Jr.]

Originally Posted by k.online

I can't help think those who say the wraptail doesn't intonate or sustain well enough simply hasn't used one. IMO, a P-90 wraptail LP and a PAF Tune-O-Matic LP are completely different animals, as different as a Strat is from a Tele. I guess you either get it or you don't... and I fucking love it. .

I'm with you on that...

Originally Posted by k.online

I have looked at both the Pigtail and Tonepros bridges. Changing the posts is no big deal but do you have to change the bushings? That's pretty major surgery.

I just ordered the Pigtail vintage wraptail and historic studs, no bushings. I don't have a good enough drill press to try to do the bushings myself. I'm also anxious to try those locking studs with the stock T/P. As a rule I prefer brass to steel as a tone metal so I'm not sure if I'll like the added steel as many do.

Greetings Mattymel, congrats on the new R4!

[k.online]

I live in Vancouver BC, but come down to Seattle quite frequently. It's only a couple of hours by car. I got my R4 from Long & McQuade in Vancouver. They have a pretty impressive Historic wall. I snap a shot next time I am in.

I have never really dug Les Pauls before. Like a Strat, it's a cool, time-honoured sound... but not MY sound. Kind of like you, I played my R4 on a lark and kept coming back to it over months and months. I finally decided to pull the trigger and on the same day I went in to buy it there was a used R6 for nearly $1K less. I played them both side by side and they were completely different sounding guitars, especially acoustically. The R6 wasn't a bad guitar by any means, but the R4 was so much more 'alive'.

I read somewhere recently that the Tune-O-Matic was an 'ingenious solution to a non-existant problem'. Even with 'perfect' intonation, even with the Buzzy Feiton system or whatever else has come along, tempering is part of music due to the fact that true pitch isn't the same as true harmony. In some cases, true harmony can be as much as 14 cents from true pitch. If you really want to get an idea of tempering, read some books and articles about piano tuning.

I'll get around to playing with wiring and pickups and all that, and when I do I'll probably just order a set of prewired Lollars with Jason's recommendations (he's doing prewired assemblies now) but for now I love it and I'll wait until I feel more of a need. I actually like the fact that the sound gets darker when you roll the volumes back and I use it. I set the amp so that when the guitar is wide open, I get a fairly bright, 'hairy' clean. Then I have a clean boost, usually a Klon or RC, with the tone rolled back a bit to hit the front of the amp harder and warmer for leads. Then I can leave the pedal on and roll the guitar back for darker clean-ish tones.

[mattymel]

the couv! nice. my only complaint with my R4 is that its neck is sticky. probably got oversprayed a bit. my tech told me he could sand it down, but that it would probably show up, maybe devalue it. not that i ever envision selling it. but he said if i just keep it out of the case and keep playing it, it will smooth out. until then...guess i'll be a little sticky.