The five factors which create the ‘1959 burst’ sound

[exPFCWintergreen]

Originally Posted by SuiteAmpCo

If you played a piece of music on your guitar, then handed it to me. Without touching any settings. Then I played the same piece of music note for note, I guaranty it would not sound exactly the same. Not the tone or the music.
Let's change the situation and say Billy Gibbons and David Gilmour were the ones passing the guitar. Do you still think the tone would sound the same?

You're making my point for me. You're not talking about the tone from the instrument, you're talking about the music the artists elicit from it. Tone, as used here, is a measzure of the base sounds from the guitar. Do you think Slash would sound the same if he played a rockabilly Gretsch through a transister amp?

[CRobbins]

Originally Posted by exPFCWintergreen

The statement that "tone is in the fingers" is incorrect. Tone is in the instrument. Music is in the fingers.

The music we hear is in the air.

[captain tightpants]

Point to consider: exPFCwhat's-his-face likes to argue for the sake of it. Rarely are his arguments based in anything resembling logic, usually just an attempt to stir shit. Fair sure this is just another example of that.

[guitarnut_germany]

Originally Posted by SuiteAmpCo

If you played a piece of music on your guitar, then handed it to me. Without touching any settings. Then I played the same piece of music note for note, I guaranty it would not sound exactly the same. Not the tone or the music.
Let's change the situation and say Billy Gibbons and David Gilmour were the ones passing the guitar. Do you still think the tone would sound the same?

When I was a teenager, a good friend of mine, who had a HUGE influence on me and my playing, was playing through a solid state rather crappy amp with only a standard 89 USA strat. Boy, the sounds he was getting were amazing, his attack, his picking technique, his vibrato....I remember seeing him at one concert, he was playing Hendrix's Maniac Depression, at first I though he had a wah pedal, NO it was his picking technique... amazing.

90% of your tone IS in the fingers, I know that as I have seen this in person. You may have the greatest guitar in your hands and the most expensive pedals and amps, if you don't have that magic touch, you'd still sound like crap. That's my opinion.

[SuiteAmpCo]

Originally Posted by captain tightpants

Point to consider: exPFCwhat's-his-face likes to argue for the sake of it. Rarely are his arguments based in anything resembling logic, usually just an attempt to stir shit. Fair sure this is just another example of that.

Yeah, judging btw he side stepped the direct question I guess he's either sloshed or just way out there from the get go. Thanx for the heads up.

[captain tightpants]

Originally Posted by SuiteAmpCo

Yeah, judging btw he side stepped the direct question I guess he's either sloshed or just way out there from the get go. Thanx for the heads up.

No problem, just thought I'd save you a little trouble

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by RAG7890

No Thump, I do a lot of things & part of that involves working as a professional scientist & I know I am not biased. Once you are biased I think you stop learning. The Australian Luthier I mentioned above in a previous Post (that I also do some work with now) said to me quite a few years ago after we'd known each other for a year................"you are the only one I have ever met that wants to know the truth about a guitar, most of my customers don't want to be told their guitar is crap". That was the beginning of all the learning..............& chasing Nirvana.

I very much doubt Michael is biased................all the professionals I know are not major gear junkies like many of us are.

I disagree. The very nature of bias makes it inscrutable to most introspection. Not to derail this thread, but the scientific method came together, in part, to remove bias from the field of study, and even then it hasn't been completely successful.

Why do you think science, properly done, demands independant confirmation by experiment, rather than accepting the word of one scientist? The history of discovery is filled with cautionary tales about scientists letting their biases get the better of them.

No, scientists, like any other humans (your friend Mike included) have the potential to be, and most often are, biased. No offense intended. Unless your experiments provide for a double-blind, you cannot remove the possibility that bias is marring your attained results. That's a simple fact, and whether you accept that or not is a matter of indifference to me.

***********

Also, I think I get what exPFC is getting at, and I somewhat agree. Our individuality on an instrument is a complex thing, and one component of that is the notes we play -- not how we play them, but our note-choice itself. I don't agree that that is the only thing which hands impart to the music wee make. I think our touch, how we attack the note, is directly related to tone as well, meaning that tone is soewhat in our hands.

However, I think it's uncharitable in the extreme to insinuate drunkenness on his part simply for holding a different opinion. It is a shitty thing to do, and I'm not inclined to take part in this discussion much any more. If the point is so important you'd be that ugly, it must be pretty important to you. Have it.

[SKATTERBRANE]

Tone (such as the difference between a saxophone, piano, and oboe) playing the same note, has to do with the relationship between the various harmonics to the root frequency. A pure tone generates NO harmonics at all. It essentially has no tone.

The only way one can tell the difference between a flute and a banjo, has to do with overtones undertones, how loud or soft each mulitiple of the basic note is produced, and how many mulitples of that note is generated.

How one plays does affect it to some degree. But the basic tone is in the instrument itself.

[RAG7890]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

I disagree. The very nature of bias makes it inscrutable to most introspection. Not to derail this thread, but the scientific method came together, in part, to remove bias from the field of study, and even then it hasn't been completely successful.

Why do you think science, properly done, demands independant confirmation by experiment, rather than accepting the word of one scientist? The history of discovery is filled with cautionary tales about scientists letting their biases get the better of them.

No, scientists, like any other humans (your friend Mike included) have the potential to be, and most often are, biased. No offense intended. Unless your experiments provide for a double-blind, you cannot remove the possibility that bias is marring your attained results. That's a simple fact, and whether you accept that or not is a matter of indifference to me.

***********

Also, I think I get what exPFC is getting at, and I somewhat agree. Our individuality on an instrument is a complex thing, and one component of that is the notes we play -- not how we play them, but our note-choice itself. I don't agree that that is the only thing which hands impart to the music wee make. I think our touch, how we attack the note, is directly related to tone as well, meaning that tone is soewhat in our hands.

However, I think it's uncharitable in the extreme to insinuate drunkenness on his part simply for holding a different opinion. It is a shitty thing to do, and I'm not inclined to take part in this discussion much any more. If the point is so important you'd be that ugly, it must be pretty important to you. Have it.

Fair call Thump................maybe I think differently when to comes to bias, but then I don't consider myself an ordinary scientist.......................but then I have a "biased" view of myself..............................

I know when my Replica was built & we were testing the pickups for it, the sound files were numbered & no one knew what number related to what pickup set...............specifically to remove bias.

I had a look through the Thread, I can't find what you are referring to re someone saying PFCW was drunk..................but I agree.

As I have said many times most of these Threads, no matter what the topic, usually turns in to a $hit fight.................the last time this happened I quoted Voltaire.

Oh well, such is life.

[rykus]

I find it quite easy to not be bias on tone, I'm always disappointed when I spend $ on collector stuff and have some of my player pieces kill them tone wise.
I paid huge for my '58 LPC and my modded up '69 LPC kills it hands down.
I like my HM '10 R9 beats my replica for my style,
I like my '94 R7 better than my #35 Murphy '98 R8

Most of the examples I chose we're less than half what the other more collectible one's sighted where, nothing to do with price or value, on the collector market those ones still win hands down but at night when I crank up and amp and just play no one else is there, I don't give two thoughts to the $ I am holding just how much I enjoy tone and feel coming through my hands and ears.
I know for a fact RAG has owned those expensive collector ones too and after the first couple the glory wears of and the playability and tone win out.... I mean the guy just told you that of 30 historics, mostly BRW, sigs and all the other majik dust crap people spew his favorite was a plain 'ol Murphy R9 from '07...... and that his replica that cost LESS smoke's it!
Lets move along with the bias/price anologies or go hang out on a Jay Turser guitar forum.

[Guitarhack]

The main ingredient in a guitar's sound is the man behind it. I don't deny that the guitar plays an integral part of the equation (that includes how the guitar is made and what its made of) but ultimately the guitar is an instrument and its the artist that gives it life and uses it to craft the sound that he's after.

Same song 3 different guitars
Strat

Eric Johnson - Cliffs of Dover - YouTube

Eric Johnson - Cliffs of Dover - YouTube

SG

Eric Johnson - Anaheim - Cliffs of Dover - YouTube

Eric Johnson - Anaheim - Cliffs of Dover - YouTube

335

Eric Johnson - Cliffs Of Dover 1990 (UMG) - YouTube

Eric Johnson - Cliffs Of Dover 1990 (UMG) - YouTube

Eric Johnson Interview - YouTube

Eric Johnson Interview - YouTube

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by rykus

I find it quite easy to not be bias on tone, I'm always disappointed when I spend $ on collector stuff and have some of my player pieces kill them tone wise.
I paid huge for my '58 LPC and my modded up '69 LPC kills it hands down.
I like my HM '10 R9 beats my replica for my style,
I like my '94 R7 better than my #35 Murphy '98 R8

Most of the examples I chose we're less than half what the other more collectible one's sighted where, nothing to do with price or value, on the collector market those ones still win hands down but at night when I crank up and amp and just play no one else is there, I don't give two thoughts to the $ I am holding just how much I enjoy tone and feel coming through my hands and ears.
I know for a fact RAG has owned those expensive collector ones too and after the first couple the glory wears of and the playability and tone win out.... I mean the guy just told you that of 30 historics, mostly BRW, sigs and all the other majik dust crap people spew his favorite was a plain 'ol Murphy R9 from '07...... and that his replica that cost LESS smoke's it!
Lets move along with the bias/price anologies or go hang out on a Jay Turser guitar forum.

Hey, go fvck yourself.

Bias happens to everyone, and I don't know his friend from a can of paint. I've been playing guitar for 32 years, and informally studying the history of science as long. If you don't like my posting, put me on ignore ... but if all you have is little insults about the "Jay Turser forum", then you really ain't bringing shit, now are you?

Some people are biased, some aren't, and when I don't know them, I assume that they are.

Don't like it? Tough shit. Life's hard. Get a goddamned helmet.

I'll think for myself, thanks.

[deepblue]

Cliffs of Dover was cut on a 335?? Cool!

[bubba steen]

Thanks

[rinoatl]

me and a buddy of mine want to start a burst project.any suggestions on good wood suppliers?

[nicolasrivera]

Originally Posted by rinoatl

me and a buddy of mine want to start a burst project.any suggestions on good wood suppliers?

Hello, post your comment in this cessation, there you will find a ton of help regarding guitar construction.

Luthier's Corner - My Les Paul Forums

[rinoatl]

ahhhh thank you nicolas.new to mlp here.glad to find so many paul junkies in one place.

[NowGibson]

Originally Posted by SKATTERBRANE

And I agree, with those recording conditions and Claption's amp settings ANY humbucker guitar would have come out sounding like that. It is a horrendous recording! In fact the better your system the more apparent it is how bad that recording is. Sounds best on a juke box or on a transistor radio!

And that's what it was mixed to sound good on, get those auratones moving.
Thanks for the post Scooter, I guess that's what Max needs to build a guitar to his liking.