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11-20-2007, 06:21 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Preston, Lancashire, United Kingdom
Posts: 697
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History of Historics
I've often wondered, now that Historic Les Pauls have been with us for so long, when various features appeared and disappeared. I'm kind of hoping to get a list together of years of introduction/disappearance of various features. Feel free to add to the list - and even more so to put a date next to an item. If it gets good enough it might get "sticky", but if it's too much like trainspotting let it drop to the bottom and we can forget I posted it. Feel free to correct dates if you have better info
Sunbursts. Heritage Les Paul introduced 1980 Les Paul '59 reissue introduced 1985 Les Paul '60 reissue introduced 1992 Les Paul '58 reissue introduced ?? Les Paul '57 reissue introduced 1985 Les Paul '56 reissue introduced 1989 Les Paul '52 reissue introduced ?? Nitro cellulose finish Nickel hardware Big headstock Holly veneer headstock Long tenon body Classic 57 pickups Burstbuckers Bumblebee caps CTS pots Authentic neck profiles Brazilian rosewood fingerboards available ?-2003? Tops get ridiculously "curly" Plain tops available VOS We could do the same for: Junior/Special Custom The history of all these is much bigger than the original guitars, I'd love to put some dates to it all. Liam |
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11-20-2007, 06:48 PM
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#2 (permalink) | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: North Carolina in the Mountains
Posts: 5,172
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Re: History of Historics
Quote:
Long Tenon necks and Holly vaneer heastocks were part of 50s original Les Pauls, as was nitrocell, |
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11-21-2007, 06:29 AM
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#3 (permalink) | |||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Preston, Lancashire, United Kingdom
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Re: History of Historics
Quote:
(I've got a 1990 USA Standard that has what we would now call a 60s profile neck, but when the Classic came out they started making the Standard necks chunkier to differentiate. Or so it appeared to me.) Quote:
Quote:
 Anyhow, thanks for the info, I've updated the list, and added a something I'd forgotten.... Sunbursts. Heritage Les Paul introduced 1980 Les Paul '59 reissue introduced 1985 (Could even be 82/83) Les Paul '60 reissue introduced 1992 Les Paul '58 reissue introduced ?? ("Re-introduced" in 2001 with "less figured" Top) Les Paul '57 reissue introduced 1985 Les Paul '56 reissue introduced 1989 Les Paul '52 reissue introduced ?? Nitro cellulose finish Nickel hardware Small headstock Holly veneer headstock Correct body binding around cutaway Long tenon body Classic 57 pickups Burstbuckers Bumblebee caps 2003 CTS pots 2003 Authentic neck profiles 1992? Brazilian rosewood fingerboards available ?-2003? Tops get ridiculously "curly" "Aged" guitars acailable from factory Plain tops available 2001? VOS 2007? Junior/Special Custom Black Beauty '54 Reissue 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 2PU 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 3PU 1992 Custom reissue '68 |
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11-22-2007, 07:16 AM
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#4 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Preston, Lancashire, United Kingdom
Posts: 697
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Re: History of Historics
Added some more dates/features to the list before we finally let it sink. Am I really the only one here weird enough to have an interest in all this?
Sunbursts Heritage Les Paul introduced 1980 Les Paul '59 reissue introduced 1985 (Could even be 82/83) Les Paul '60 reissue introduced 1992 Les Paul '58 reissue introduced ?? ("Re-introduced" in 2001 with "less figured" Top) Les Paul '57 reissue introduced 1985 Les Paul '56 reissue introduced 1989 Les Paul '52 reissue introduced ?? Nitro cellulose finish Nickel hardware Small headstock Holly veneer headstock Correct body binding around cutaway Long tenon body Classic 57 pickups Burstbuckers Bumblebee caps 2003 CTS pots 2003 Authentic neck profiles 1992? Brazilian rosewood fingerboards available ?-2003? Tops get ridiculously "curly" "Aged" guitars available from factory Plain tops available 2001? VOS 2007? Lightweight tailpiece Wired ABR1 Junior/Special Les Paul Junior '54 1986-1991 (Not stop-bar) Les Paul Junior '58 (DC) 1986-1987 (Not stop bar) Les Paul Special '58 1976-1979 Les Paul Special Single cut reissue 1988 - 1998 (Grovers and P100, not stop bar, available HC, TSB or TV yellow, 60s neck) Les Paul "Junior" Special 1999? - 2003 ("Green" kluson type, P100s, not stop bar, only available in natural finish. Supposed to be 60s neck but quite chunky.) Custom Black Beauty '54 Reissue 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 2PU 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 3PU 1992 Custom reissue '68 |
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11-22-2007, 11:09 AM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: North Carolina in the Mountains
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Re: History of Historics
[quote=Liam;40228]Certainly were. But did all the reissues have them? I thought they were introduced in the late 80s maybe even early 90s - just wondered if anyone knew when. Similarly I gather the necks on early '59s were not as chunky as they became when the '60 reissue came out, so wondered if 1992 was the first year they bothered making the neck profiles "authentic".
(I've got a 1990 USA Standard that has what we would now call a 60s profile neck, but when the Classic came out they started making the Standard necks chunkier to differentiate. Or so it appeared to me.)* Really? I'm sure in the UK we just got the "Heritage" models, which were basically a standard with different machine heads and curly tops. Little attempt to make them into a reissue. Series 80 Heritage came stock with Grover machine heads and Tim Shaw pickups The Bacon and Day book lists the first year of reissues as 1985. Bacon and Day have gone for 1992 for this, but if no-one can corroborate this I'll move it back into the late 90s. Anyhow, thanks for the info, I've updated the list, and added a something I'd forgotten.... 90 was the first year of the 60 Re Issues and they began to have smaller necks then, Some Standards and even slightly later 59s got 60s neck profiles If you look closely at a Heritage 80s on the bout of the cutaway you can tell it was cut differently than Standards , One way to quickly eyball identify one without a pickguard Heritage 80s also have a second numbering sequence below the Made in USA Stamp |
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11-22-2007, 03:05 PM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Preston, Lancashire, United Kingdom
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Re: History of Historics
Thanks Don,
List updated with those changes: Sunbursts Heritage Les Paul introduced 1980 Les Paul '59 reissue introduced 1985 (Could even be 82/83) Les Paul '60 reissue introduced 1990 Les Paul '58 reissue introduced ?? ("Re-introduced" in 2001 with "less figured" Top) Les Paul '57 reissue introduced 1985 Les Paul '56 reissue introduced 1989 Les Paul '52 reissue introduced ?? Nitro cellulose finish Nickel hardware Small headstock Holly veneer headstock Correct body binding around cutaway Long tenon body Classic 57 pickups Burstbuckers Bumblebee caps 2003 CTS pots 2003 Authentic neck profiles 1992? Brazilian rosewood fingerboards available ?-2003? Tops get ridiculously "curly" "Aged" guitars available from factory Plain tops available 2001? VOS 2007? Lightweight tailpiece Wired ABR1 60s neck available from 1990 Junior/Special Les Paul Junior '54 1986-1991 (Not stop-bar) Les Paul Junior '58 (DC) 1986-1987 (Not stop bar) Les Paul Special '58 1976-1979 Les Paul Special Single cut reissue 1988 - 1998 (Grovers and P100, not stop bar, available HC, TSB or TV yellow, 60s neck) Les Paul "Junior" Special 1999? - 2003 ("Green" kluson type, P100s, not stop bar, only available in natural finish. Supposed to be 60s neck but quite chunky.) Custom Black Beauty '54 Reissue 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 2PU 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 3PU 1992 Custom reissue '68 |
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11-22-2007, 03:55 PM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Calgary, Canada
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Re: History of Historics
I'm not positive on these but I'll try
VOS I think started last year? '06? The only non wire ABR1 afaik was '02? LW TP came in '01 I think. Burstbuckers I think '02 (my '01R9 had Classic 57's and LW TP) '03 also corrected the angle of the tuners I think. |
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11-22-2007, 04:44 PM
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#9 (permalink) | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Preston, Lancashire, United Kingdom
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Re: History of Historics
Thanks!...info added
Quote:
Sunbursts Heritage Les Paul introduced 1980 Les Paul '59 reissue introduced 1985 (Could even be 82/83) Les Paul '60 reissue introduced 1990 Les Paul '58 reissue introduced ?? ("Re-introduced" in 2001 with "less figured" Top) Les Paul '57 reissue introduced 1985 Les Paul '56 reissue introduced 1989 Les Paul '52 reissue introduced ?? Nitro cellulose finish Nickel hardware Small headstock Holly veneer headstock Corrected tuner angle 2003 Correct body binding around cutaway Long tenon body Classic 57 pickups Burstbuckers 2002 Bumblebee caps 2003 CTS pots 2003 Authentic neck profiles 1992? Brazilian rosewood fingerboards available ?-2003? Tops get ridiculously "curly" "Aged" guitars available from factory Plain tops available 2001? VOS 2006 Lightweight tailpiece Wired ABR1 Non wired ABR1 2002 only 60s neck available from 1990 Junior/Special Les Paul Junior '54 1986-1991 (Not stop-bar) Les Paul Junior '58 (DC) 1986-1987 (Not stop bar) Les Paul Special '58 1976-1979 Les Paul Special Single cut reissue 1988 - 1998 (Grovers and P100, not stop bar, available HC, TSB or TV yellow, 60s neck) Les Paul "Junior" Special 1999? - 2003 ("Green" kluson type, P100s, not stop bar, only available in natural finish. Supposed to be 60s neck but quite chunky.) Custom Black Beauty '54 Reissue 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 2PU 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 3PU 1992 Custom reissue '68 |
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11-25-2007, 07:53 PM
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#11 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 100
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Re: History of Historics
What year did the Historic Division open with their own, separate building? Almost all of the "reissue's" before that division was started used regular production guitars that were pulled of the line and made into "Custom Shop" guitars.
I would think that you would separate them into two sections: Pre-Historic Division and Historic. |
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11-26-2007, 12:56 PM
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#13 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Preston, Lancashire, United Kingdom
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Re: History of Historics
Thanks for further info. Don't know when the Historic Division moved. probably easier to separate into guitars made by "Gibson USA" and guitars made by "Custom, Art and Historic" division. I know the Custom, Art and Historic shop was running in the early/mid 90s, but genuine new Historics were like hen's teeth here in the UK.
Sewood, why do I get the feeling you could contribute quite a lot to this list? (Stole the '54 info from another thread... )Going to ponder the best way to do that so for the meanwhile I've updated a little... Sunbursts Heritage Les Paul introduced 1980 Les Paul '59 reissue introduced 1985 (Could even be 82/83) Les Paul '60 reissue introduced 1990 Les Paul '58 reissue introduced 1993 - 1995 ("Re-introduced" in 2001 with "less figured" Top) Les Paul '57 reissue introduced 1985 Les Paul '56 reissue introduced 1989 Les Paul '54 reissue 2001 - 2004 Les Paul '52 reissue introduced ?? Nitro cellulose finish Nickel hardware Small headstock Holly veneer headstock Corrected tuner angle 2003 Correct body binding around cutaway Long tenon body/neck join Classic 57 pickups Burstbuckers 2002 Bumblebee caps 2003 CTS pots 2003 Authentic neck profiles 1992? Brazilian rosewood fingerboards available ?-2003? Tops get ridiculously "curly" "Aged" guitars available from factory Plain tops available 2001? VOS 2006 Lightweight tailpiece Wired ABR1 Non wired ABR1 2002 only 60s neck available from 1990 Junior/Special Les Paul Junior '54 1986-1991 (Not stop-bar) Les Paul Junior '58 (DC) 1986-1987 (Not stop-bar) Les Paul Special '58 1976-1979 Les Paul Special Single cut reissue 1988 - 1998 (Grovers and P100, not stop bar, available HC, TSB or TV yellow, 60s neck) Les Paul "Junior" Special 1999? - 2003 ("Green" kluson type, P100s, not stop bar, only available in natural finish. Supposed to be 60s neck but quite chunky.) Custom Black Beauty '54 Reissue 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 2PU 1992 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 3PU 1992 Custom reissue '68 |
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11-26-2007, 11:33 PM
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#14 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
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Re: History of Historics
What about the inlays? 2003 for the more accurate inlays?
Weren't there also several minute changes like PU distance, horn shape, tuner layout, headstock thickness in the late 90's into the 2000's?  I'm not totally sure... |
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11-27-2007, 09:04 AM
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#15 (permalink) |
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V.I.P. Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,233
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Re: History of Historics
NOT including the Leo's, Jimmy Wallace, Guitar Trader, Strings and Things etc. The Flametop RI (not called 59 RI yet) started in 1983. The Goldtop RI Started in 1984. The R8 Started in mid 1994. They did not make R8s in 1999 or 2000. The Long tenon begain in late 1993 with the advent of the Historics. The correct inlays were on the 91-93 PreHistorics because they took on the appointments of the Classic. The Historic Prototypes had the correct inlays as well, but the PRODUCTION Historics did not! (a purposeful error on Gibson's part) The correct inlays first reappeared on the 2002 R9 (of which they only made 300) Then all Historics got them in 2003.
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11-27-2007, 09:21 AM
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#16 (permalink) |
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Re: History of Historics
Custom 54 RI 1991
Custom 57 RI 1991 59 Flametop RI 1991 60 Flametop RI 1991 None of these had long tenons yet. That began with the Historics in late 93 when they changed the SN format. R2 1998 R4 1997 Historic RI Special 1997 (catalog in 1998) Historic RI Junior 1997 (catalog in 1998) There are many versions of the Junior and Special that were Reissues before these dates, but they were not Historics. Even today many people get various versions of Juniors, Specials, and SG RIs confused with the Historic versions! |
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11-27-2007, 11:04 AM
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#17 (permalink) | |
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Re: History of Historics
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11-27-2007, 11:21 AM
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#18 (permalink) |
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Re: History of Historics
I have not heard of or seen a 1993 R8. The first R8s came in later 94 and only 50 were made and all painted by Murphy. Murphy painted the first 15 R7s in 93 and the first 25 R9s in 93 and all the 94 R7s and R9s until he left Nov 2, 1994, of which there are only 200 R9s that he finished in 1994. The remaining 150 (or so) R9s of 94 he did not paint. This was back when it was a CUSTOM shop and not just another manufacturing division, which now makes over 2000 R9s a year alone.
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11-27-2007, 06:38 PM
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#19 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
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Re: History of Historics
OK, updates added. Hope I got them all on there. Many thanks to sewood and kink56. Don't know if anyone else is starting to enjoy the list, but I am. Can we avoid any flames? I'm just going on what seems to be the best information available. This isn't a gospel, it's just a bit of history that will hopefully help people out when they're buying a Historic or Reissue Les Paul.
All proper Historic Gibsons unless noted with **, in which case Gibson USA "reissues" Sunbursts Heritage Les Paul introduced 1980 ** Les Paul '59 reissue introduced 1983 ** Les Paul "Flametop" reissue introduced 1991 ** Les Paul '60 reissue introduced 1991 ** Les Paul '58 reissue introduced 1993 - 1995 ("Re-introduced" in 2001 with "less figured" Top) Les Paul '57 reissue introduced 1984 ** Les Paul '56 reissue introduced 1989 ** Genuine "Custom shop" Historics from late 1993 Les Paul '54 reissue 1997 - 2004 Les Paul '52 reissue introduced 1998 (I know they sold some in 2002, was it the end?) Nitro cellulose finish Nickel hardware Small headstock Holly veneer headstock Corrected tuner angle 2003 Correct body binding around cutaway Correct inlays, 2002 for R9, 2003 for rest of range Long tenon body/neck join 1993 - Classic 57 pickups Burstbuckers 2002 Bumblebee caps 2003 CTS pots 2003 Authentic neck profiles 1992? Brazilian rosewood fingerboards available ?-2003? Tops get ridiculously "curly" "Aged" guitars available from factory Plain tops available 2001? VOS 2006 Lightweight tailpiece Wired ABR1 Non wired ABR1 2002 only Junior/Special Les Paul Junior '54 1986-1991 (Not stop-bar) ** Les Paul Junior '58 (DC) 1986-1987 (Not stop-bar) ** Les Paul Special '58 1976-1979 ** Les Paul Special Single cut reissue 1988 - 1998 (Grovers and P100, not stop bar, available HC, TSB or TV yellow, 60s neck) ** Les Paul "Junior" Special 1999? - 2003 ("Green" kluson type, P100s, not stop bar, only available in natural finish. Supposed to be 60s neck but quite chunky.) ** Historic RI Special 1997 (catalog in 1998) Historic RI Junior 1997 (catalog in 1998) Custom Black Beauty '54 Reissue 1991 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 2PU 1991 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 3PU 1991 Custom reissue '68 (still waiting for this...) Feel free to comment on accuracy - I'm keen for people to argue, less keen for people to fall out.... |
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11-27-2007, 06:44 PM
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#20 (permalink) |
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Re: History of Historics
Flametop RI 1983
59 or 60 RI in 1991. In 2001 and 2002 R8s had figured tops. 2003 (expect for one special order) R8s were plaintops. In 1999 and 2000 R9s could be had as Plaintops as there are NO R8s. Burstbuckers started appearing in 2001. 2000 for the Gary Moore. |
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11-28-2007, 06:35 AM
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#22 (permalink) | |
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Re: History of Historics
Quote:
I don't want any flame wars, I am more than happy for the list to contain educated guesses until more definite information appears. Just telling me it's wrong doesn't help. I am trying to piece together a story. Unfortunately history is generally subjective, so even those that were there remember things slightly (or sometimes completely) differently. It is a well documented trait of human memory, and does not in any way imply deceit. |
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11-28-2007, 06:48 AM
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#23 (permalink) |
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Senior Member
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Re: History of Historics
kink56, see what you mean, misinterpreted that one somehow.
Are we going to start putting Custom Shop signature editions in? What about Gibson USA signature editions? All proper Historic Gibsons unless noted with **, in which case Gibson USA "reissues" Sunbursts Heritage Les Paul introduced 1980 ** Les Paul "Flametop" reissue introduced 1983 ** Les Paul '59 reissue introduced 1991 ** Les Paul '60 reissue introduced 1991 ** Les Paul '58 reissue introduced 1993 - 1995 ("Re-introduced" for 2001/2 with "less figured" Top, from 2003 as plain top) Les Paul '57 reissue introduced 1984 ** Les Paul '56 reissue introduced 1989 ** Genuine "Custom shop" Historics from late 1993 Les Paul '54 reissue 1997 - 2004 Les Paul '59 "Plain Top" available 1999 - 2000 Les Paul '52 reissue introduced 1998 (I know they sold some in 2002, was it the end?) Nitro cellulose finish Nickel hardware Small headstock Holly veneer headstock Corrected tuner angle 2003 Correct body binding around cutaway Correct inlays, 2002 for R9, 2003 for rest of range Long tenon body/neck join 1993 - Classic 57 pickups Burstbuckers 2001 (but in Gary Moore sig. from 2000) Bumblebee caps 2003 CTS pots 2003 Authentic neck profiles 1992? Brazilian rosewood fingerboards available ?-2003? Tops get ridiculously "curly" "Aged" guitars available from factory Plain tops available 2001? VOS 2006 Lightweight tailpiece Wired ABR1 Non wired ABR1 2002 only Junior/Special Les Paul Junior '54 1986-1991 (Not stop-bar) ** Les Paul Junior '58 (DC) 1986-1987 (Not stop-bar) ** Les Paul Special '58 1976-1979 ** Les Paul Special Single cut reissue 1988 - 1998 (Grovers and P100, not stop bar, available HC, TSB or TV yellow, 60s neck) ** Les Paul "Junior" Special 1999? - 2003 ("Green" kluson type, P100s, not stop bar, only available in natural finish. Supposed to be 60s neck but quite chunky.) ** Historic RI Special 1997 (catalog in 1998) Historic RI Junior 1997 (catalog in 1998) Custom Black Beauty '54 Reissue 1991 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 2PU 1991 Black Beauty '57 Reissue 3PU 1991 Custom reissue '68 (still waiting for this...) Feel free to comment on accuracy - but PLEASE tell me what we've got wrong. |
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11-28-2007, 10:41 AM
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#24 (permalink) |
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Re: History of Historics
The customshop has been around awhile. However the HISTORIC division started in late 1993. The Heritage series was not the first reissues. Many of the dealer reissues predated them.
If you want to keep your scope limited to PRODUCTION reissues, whether it be the Regular Gibson RIs or the Historic RIs, that will keep your hands full, because there is still much work to be done. You have also left out the 30th anniversary GT from 82-83. The Standard 82 from 1982 (Kalamazoo's answer to the Heritage series) the Standard 83 (Nashville's answer to the Standard 82!) The Standard CMT of the late 80s, which was a regular production Standard, emulating the Flametop Reissue. After we get this done, we can work on the Special Dealer Reissues! |
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11-28-2007, 11:04 AM
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#25 (permalink) |
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Re: History of Historics
Historics begin in late 1993. Regular production Reissues began in 1983 (Heritage and others notwithstanding)
Sunbursts Heritage Les Paul introduced 1980 Les Paul Standard 82 1982 Les Paul Goldtop 30th anniversary 1982-1983 Les Paul Standard 83 1983 Les Paul "Flametop" reissue introduced 1983 Les Paul Standard CMT 1986-1989 Les Paul '59 reissue introduced 1991 Becomes R9 in late 1993 Les Paul '60 reissue introduced 1991 Becomes R0 in late 1993 Les Paul '58 reissue introduced 1994 94-98/03-on PT, 96-98, 01-02 figured top Les Paul GT reissue introduced 1984 Becomes R7 in late 1993 Les Paul '56 reissue introduced 1989 Becomes R6 in late 1993 or so. Genuine "Custom shop" Historics from late 1993 is where Flametop and Goldtop RIs become R9 and R7. Les Paul '54 reissue 1997 - 2004 (still availible by special order) Les Paul '59 "Plain Top" available 1999 - 2000 Les Paul '52 reissue introduced 1998 (I know they sold some in 2002, was it the end?)-----yes I believe so! Les Paul Special 1960 RI introduced 1997 Les Paul Historic versions of the Junior introduced in 1997 (R7, R8, R0 different years, now R7 or R8 only) Historic RI Special 1997 (catalog in 1998) Historic RI Junior 1997 (catalog in 1998) Custom Black Beauty '54 Reissue 1991 Become Historics in 93-94 period Black Beauty '57 Reissue 2PU 1991 " " Black Beauty '57 Reissue 3PU 1991 " " Custom reissue '68 2000 I have updated the best I can....help, comments welcome. |
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Re: History of Historics
