Workmanship Quality on Historics

[TC5A]

How do people feel generally about the workmanship quality on their historic instruments? I have just received a 2007 '57 Black Beauty and I find the general build quality to be nothing above average. Considering this is arguably their top of the line I was expecting maybe a bit more. I have an Epiphone Sheraton II that actually has fewer minor flaws... (Maybe the fact that it's sealed under a thick coat of polyurethane helps even out minor finish imperfections). Or perhaps the "hand built" quality of the historic would account for the difference? Though I imagine Korean Epiphones are no less "hand built"(?)

How bad are the finish flaws and overall build quality, in your opinion? How does it play? Seriously, if it isn't worth the money to you, send it back.

[TC5A]

The flaws are minor I have to say, and it plays fine. Still at the price point I'd expect a bit more. I'd like to hear how others feel about their historics. Sending it back means I'd have to be without a Les Paul at all since there is VERY little selection available out there in Lefty.

[MIDNIGHT]

hmm..

any ?

[dwagar]

I have an article from, I think, '95, a custom builder roundtable. Gibson wasn't there, PRS was, and some of the more custom guys.
One point that was interesting, they were complaining about how buyers, especially in Japan and Germany, were requiring the guitars to be, in their words, appliances. Perfect like a toaster.
To build up a heavier finish to deliver this type of quality was sacrificing tone. To tool up to CNC every piece was sacrificing hand built. etc.

I think in many ways, we equate the $ to something that should look perfect, when we should equate the $ with hand built. We all do it.

[TC5A]

Yes I can upload some photos. Have to wait till the morning so I get some good daylight. It IS a beautiful instrument. Very classy. But some details are a bit rough around the edges. I've poilshed it with gibson pump polish to get that VOS finish shinier. It looks a lot better but this also uncovered a couple more flaws. A few slightly cloudy looking smudges in the finish. Look like finger smudges but the polish doesn't take them out. I'm hoping these are superficial and can be buffed out and are not from under the clear coat...

[TC5A]

Originally Posted by dwagar

they were complaining about how buyers, especially in Japan and Germany, were requiring the guitars to be, in their words, appliances. Perfect like a toaster.

I can see that. I think the Japanese and Germans tend to be very detail oriented. Perhaps why Japanese Fenders seem to be more highly praised for workmanship these days than standard US ones.

[lp59aholicDon]

Originally Posted by TC5A

I can see that. I think the Japanese and Germans tend to be very detail oriented. Perhaps why Japanese Fenders seem to be more highly praised for workmanship these days than standard US ones.

The Japanese are some of the best re creators in the world, Its almost a nationally anally retentive hysteria , dont forget the lawsuit guitars of 75-76 , not only were they better than any Gibby Re Issue, Hell in some ways they were far better . In Japan, there are two different types of earners, those who work salery jobs, mainly suits, and crafts people and skill laborers who do not get paid by the hour but by the job they do, If your job didnt meet QC Standards , ya dont get paid, that simple, and the companies name goes on that product, and you waste company raw stock to make sub standard quality, its dishonor to yourself and the company Both Japanese and Germans are efficiancy oriented , This is why both companies products and both companies markets are healthy and thriving. Unions in this country have done too much to turn workers away from this than lead them to it. Unions in Japan, unheard of, not sure bout unions in Germany

[Axeman16]

for that price, everythig will pale in comparison. they are EXTREMELY over priced.

[TC5A]

Originally Posted by lp59aholicDon

crafts people and skill laborers who do not get paid by the hour but by the job they do, If your job didnt meet QC Standards , ya dont get paid, that simple, and the companies name goes on that product, and you waste company raw stock to make sub standard quality, its dishonor to yourself and the company

That is an interesting business ethic and explains a lot. If you do a half assed job it'll show in your paycheck. Very good idea. "Dishonor" is certainly not a concept in the west as it is in Japan that's for sure.

[TC5A]

Here's a few quick shots.

1- Some slight dips in the finish along the binding in a few spots. Not a big deal and easy enough to remedy with lacquer I think if I am so inclined.

2- Side marker dots poorly positioned. A few marker dots are not well centered on the binding. That looks pretty sloppy. Imediately noticeable. especially when you see the whole length of the neck and the markers wobbling up and down. I'm thinking of having a luthier redo those two properly if that is possible.

There's a few more little minor things. (Body finish on the edge of the neck slightly rough etc.) Cosmetic issues only. The cloudy blotches on the finish are coming out with polishing so that's good.

Nitpicking? Yes.. I mean No!

3- Stepping away from the macro lens, It is a good looking instrument overall.

[J S Moore]

Every time I pick up my R8 to look for defects I end up playing it and forgetting to check. Must just be me.

[Liam]

Glad I found this forum now, as I wanted to share this.

I bought an 01 R9 (as an investment rather than a player) a couple of months ago. It had a non functioning neck pickup volume pot, and buzzed and choked on the sixth fret, even with a moderately high action. It looked like it had been played maybe twice in its life. I was surprised to see it did not appear to have been set up at all well, not even by the dealer that sold it. It didn't even seem like the intonation had ever been set.

The top looks great, all of the woodwork is neat and tidy, the laquer is sinking into the grain in the most beautiful way. However the red die has bled onto the binding a little more than I'd hope for, and the laquer is a little thick on the sides of the neck.

Last week I leveled the frets and gave the guitar a proper setup. The first fret was just ridiculously high, like they missed it when they fretted the guitar new. The rest of them took a little bit of work too, spent most of a day getting the thing set-up nicely.

Originally Posted by J S Moore

Every time I pick up my R8 to look for defects I end up playing it and forgetting to check. Must just be me.

Well that's the thing. Since I set the guitar up I just can't put it down. Even acoustic it now sounds fantastic, and when I stop playing I can't help but just stare at it. It's honestly one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen, but the way it plays and sounds was totally transformed by setting it up properly.

So, rather than keep it mint as an investment, I might go out and gig with it. Been playing guitar for 25 years now, and it's only the second time I've been this "smitten" with an instrument.

So if anyone's not sure about quality of workmanship on a Les Paul of any type, take it to a decent luthier/tech and find out how good they really are...might have been Plek'd in the factory (mine wasn't, of course)...but let the wood settle down, and then treat yourself...

[TC5A]

I haven't messed with the setup yet beyond intonation but changing the strings really brought the instrument to life. The "vintage strings" that it shipped with sounded rather boomy and muddy. Now when I play the open low E string (clean and / or unplugged) its sounds like a grand piano... Much improved. I went with D'addarios XL 010 - 046.

[TC5A]

Originally Posted by J S Moore

Every time I pick up my R8 to look for defects I end up playing it and forgetting to check. Must just be me.

I don't pick up a guitar to look for defects. But I DO inspect a new instrument when I receive it...

[Liam]

I don't pick up a guitar to look for defects. But I DO inspect a new instrument when I receive it...

I know what you mean, and can understand 100%. In my experience both Gibson and Fender Custom Shops have let a few instruments out with "defects" like yours. They have also let out some really poor examples of workmanship (how about supergluing a screw head onto a scratchplate after breaking the screw during assembly? That's the lowest trick on a new instrument I've seen.)

Unfortunately many new guitars have similar faults, custom shop or line produced, and I would never buy a new guitar without first playing it. Unfortunately because you're a "lefty" you will probably always have to order what you want and hope it's a good'un when it turns up.

I'm told PRS are reliably better finished and set up than Gibson or Fender boutique guitars, so it's a shame they don't interest me in the slightest.

Aside from the defects you note, your Black Beauty looks awesome! VOS, right?

Liam

[J S Moore]

Originally Posted by TC5A

I don't pick up a guitar to look for defects. But I DO inspect a new instrument when I receive it...

I don't either, it was a joke. With the amount of hand work done on the custom shop instruments none of them will ever be perfect. Gibson, like every other company, is only as good as it's worst employee.

PRS uses poly urethane which is why they look better consistently. If looks were more important than tone I would buy PRS, but they aren't, so I don't.

When my R8 arrived I looked it over for defects that would affect playability. Finish flaws and off center binding dots don't bother me. As a point of fact they are proof of the amount of hand work that goes into them, to me any ways.

[Liam]

When my R8 arrived I looked it over for defects that would affect playability. Finish flaws and off center binding dots don't bother me.

The bit I love is when people get into "is the Les Paul logo in the right place on the headstock?" Like they measured it in 1958! Looking through the Scott/Da Pra book the dots in the binding were a little hit and miss nack in the day.

It has to come down to "do I like this guitar?" I know I'd struggle to like most of them.

I'm going to play my R9 a bit more before I go to bed. It's too good to be using as a practise hack, but I just can't help myself. Nuff said?

[J S Moore]

There was a time when I was heading down that slippery slope. Now I just want it to play well and sound good.

[TC5A]

Originally Posted by Liam

Aside from the defects you note, your Black Beauty looks awesome! VOS, right?

Liam

It is a classy instrument with a certain vibe to it. The main reason I went with an historic is that they are the only ones that are still solid body instruments. Chambered ones may be nice but I wanted the classic Paul. It is a '07 VOS. I plan to polish the finish to a shine. It's already better (to my taste) after cleaning it with pump polish. Again, the issues I mentioned are strictly cosmetic so playability and tone are not affected. And it smells damn good!...

[Harpozep]

In know what you mean TC. I wanted an R8 Black Beauty as well. I fell for the VOS stuff one day when I convinced the guitar jock at a shop to pull one down for me to try. I've not looked back since. WOW! These modern VOS guitars are great!!
I could not believe I was playing a Gibson. The guitar played itself. It was an R8 BB, and I was hooked.
So I'm getting ready to get one of those VOS wonders and I had a weird guitar day. I bid on a VOS R4 BB LP Custom on ebay and win I NEVER win, and did not intend to.....Same day a customer at my local shop sells back his R9, guess who they call?..........
So two in one day, I guess I have the VOS bug!

The R4 has a number of little inconsistencies, like yours. But man, what a sound and player I also had a real 1968 Black Custom that was not perfect either. I swear it is the black finish that brings this out.

A few years back I could bear no longer touching my wonderful fortieth anniversary Black Beauty LP Custom with P100s. Why? Because every time I picked it up , I found a new scratch or slight ding that I had somehow made I loved the sound and guitar but rationalized that I should not own it because I could not keep it in decent shape, though I tried.
Some times you can be your own worst enemy, so I regretfully sold it and regret it still. I regret selling the '68 even more, but that's another story...

So I love the idea of the VOS pre-aged a bit and not too shiny. Makes me play the beasties instead of running a museum.

The R9 is my favorite and since the acquisition, my fever for an R8 BB has abated,for now.......
I love the picture of yours. The whole lefty thing is cool. Keep it, enjoy it, PLAY IT and smile

I do think the black , while a color of Beauty ( Pun intended ) really brings out any flaws on these guitars. It's like a black car. They are horrible to keep clean and show up every imperfection. White cars are less maintenance on the outside.

I can also agree that for certain people, the acquisition and showing of a fine instrument is a hobby and pleasure unto itself. A lot of such folks trade stories and pictures on internet sites like the 13'th fret. Nice folks. Rich folks too, judging by some of their stables filled with 5 - 50 grand acoustic gutars!

As a seller of collectibles, I can understand this mentality, but damn, guitars are meant to be played, so I love to erase the barriers that prevent me from enjoying the playing. The VOS pre-aged concept does this for me. I can't see that kind of thing catching on in tha acoustic world though.

[TC5A]

Originally Posted by Harpozep

In know what you mean TC. I wanted an R8 Black Beauty as well. I fell for the VOS stuff one day when I convinced the guitar jock at a shop to pull one down for me to try. I've not looked back since. WOW! These modern VOS guitars are great!!
I could not believe I was playing a Gibson. The guitar played itself. It was an R* BB, and I was hooked.
So I'm getting ready to get one of those VOS wonders and I had a weird guitar day. I bid on a VOS R4 BB LP Custom on ebay and win I NEVER win, and did not intend to.....Same day a customer at my local shop sells back his R9, guess who they call?..........
So two in one day, I guess I have the VOS bug!

The R4 has a number of little inconsistencies, like yours. But man, what a sound and player I also had a real 1968 Black Custom that was not perfect either. I swear it is the black finish that brings this out.

A few years back I could bear no longer touching my wonderful fortieth anniversary Black Beauty LP Custom with P100s. Why? Because every time I picked it up , I found a new scratch or slight ding that I had somehow made I loved the sound and guitar but rationalized that I should not own it because I could not keep it in decent shape, though I tried.
Some times you can be your own worst enemy, so I regretfully sold it and regret it still. I regret selling the '68 even more, but that's another story...

So I love the idea of the VOS pre-aged a bit and not too shiny. Makes me play the beasties instead of running a museum.

The R9 is my favorite and since the acquisition, my fever for an R8 BB has abated,for now.......
I love the picture of yours. The whole lefty thing is cool. Keep it, enjoy it, PLAY IT and smile

I do think the black , while a color of Beauty ( Pun intended ) really brings out any flaws on these guitars. It's like a black car. They are horrible to keep clean and show up every imperfection. White cars are less maintenance on the outside.

I can also agree that for certain people, the acquisition and showing of a fine instrument is a hobby and pleasure unto itself. A lot of such folks trade stories and pictures on internet sites like the 13'th fret. Nice folks. Rich folks too, judging by some of their stables filled with 5 - 50 grand acoustic gutars!

As a seller of collectibles, I can understand this mentality, but damn, guitars are meant to be played, so I love to erase the barriers that prevent me from enjoying the playing. The VOS pre-aged concept does this for me. I can't see that kind of thing catching on in tha acoustic world though.

Harpo, sounds like you're on a roll. You make some good points. Les Pauls are things of beauty and are iconic instruments. This one I bought to replace my old black Custom that I stupidly sold years ago. Back then I was a lot less fussy about details like that and I didn't really baby it so it got worn and used without much worry. (i also paid a lot less for it when I bought it. $1000.00 new in 1990).

Now, when a guitar is brand new, I think I'm like a lot of people and baby it. Till I cause the first ding or two in it. Then I stop worrying as much and just play it. But I do like to age it myself and start brand new and mint.

I certainly understand the collector's impulse. I would be a collector if I could afford it. I could see myself owning something like 5 Les Pauls right off the bat... There are people out there who have a SERIOUS fetish about guitars. I admit I share that fetish... I see it from posts in this and the other Les Paul forum. Real passionate (obsessed!) about the Les Paul. That's why we're here on these forums isn't it?

[AndyC]

I have several historics, but I only purchase one as new - a 2005 R7 darkback. I dare say that thing is perfect. Or was perfect. I've played it a lot in two years, and the play wear shows, but the guitar had no real flaws that I could find. Probably somebody could have gone over it and decided that a position marker was darker than it should have been to be a match for the others or some such critique. I am very happy with the value I get for the money I paid..