For reference - chords for all of the modes of the major scale

[huw]

Spin off from a couple of other threads - reference material.

Major/Ionian
Notes: 1234567
Chords: Maj, min, min, Maj, dom7, min, dim
which we can write I, ii, iii, IV, V7, vi, viii(dim)
In key of C: notes CDEFGAB
Chords: C Dm Em F G7 Am Bdim

Dorian
Notes: 12b3456b7
Chords: min, min, Maj, dom7, min, dim, Maj
writen: i, ii, bIII, IV7, v, vi(dim), bVII
In C dorian: notes CDEbFGABb
Chords: Cm Dm Eb F7 Gm Adim Bb

Phrygian
notes:1b2b345b6b7
chords: min, Maj, Dom7, min, dim, Maj, min
writen: i, bII, bIII7, iv, v(dim), bVI, bvi
in C phrygian: notes CDbEbFGAbBb
chords: Cm Db Eb7 Fm Gdim Ab Bbm

Lydian
notes: 123#4567
chords: Maj, dom7, min, dim, Maj, min, min
writen: I,II7, iii, #iv(dim), V, vi, vii
in C lydian: notes CDEF#GAB
Chords: C D7 Em Fdim G Am Bm

Mixolydian
notes: 123456b7
chords: Dom7, min, dim, Maj, min, min, Maj
writen: I7, ii, iii(dim), IV, v, vi, VII
In C mixolydian: CDEFGABb
chords: C7, Dm, Edim, F, Gm, Am, Bb

Aolian (aka natural minor)
notes: 12b345b6b7
chords: min, dim, Maj, min, min, Maj, dom7
written: i, ii(dim), bIII, iv, v, bVI, bVII7
in C aolian: CDEbFGAbBb
chords: Cm, Ddim, Eb, Fm, Gm, Ab, Bb7

Locrian (hardly ever used as such, included for completeness)
notes: 1b2b34b5b6b7
chords: dim, Maj, min, min, Maj, dom7, min
written: i(dim), bII, biii, iv, bV, bVI7, bvi
in C locrian: CDbEbFGbAbBb
chords: Cdim, Db, Ebm, Fm, Gb, Ab7, Bbm

Things to notice:

1) I've distinguished between major chords and dominant seventh chords. Dom are major in that they contain a major third, and you can play a standard Maj instead of any dom7, but try to remember that they are kind of different too.

2) When extending the other chords to include sevenths follow these rules in all modes:

Maj extend to Maj7
min extend to m7
dim extend to m7b5
(dom7 already contains its seventh)


Application:

Think of the modes as "keys", rather than "scales". People on here aften ask the wrong question - we get lots of "what scale should I play over this chord".

What they would be better off asking is "what key/mode is this song in?"

I'm going to restrain myself from adding more personal comment & opinion, and leave this as I intended it, as a reference chart.

Cheers

Huw

[L60N]

Its good to see it laid out in bare form Huw. Me personally, I like to see pictures, I need to "see" the relationships going on. Top reference post though!

[huw]

Ok - I'm going to add a couple of things that I've posted before on another site during a looooong discussion on the subject. Seems like as good a way as any of getting it all in one place.

That way at least I can find it, even if few others are that bothered...

So, part I:

(the discussion at this point had been about how, in order to really get to grips with modes, one has to abandon the idea of relating them to a "parent" major scale, and get to know the sound & flavour of each one as a seperate thing).

Originally Posted by huw

...Eli makes a great point there about exploring the flavour of a mode over a simple drone note.

There is another way, also quite simple, that I'm keen on as a tool for learning modes:

Everyone should be familiar with the "three chord trick", the three primary chords (ie the three major chords) in a major key. They are the I, IV & V (that's 1, 4, & 5 for non latin speakers) and you can play versions of almost every song ever written using just those three. Basic 12 bar blues is built from these three, etc you get the picture.

In G major they are G, C & D. All major.

So far, so what. Ok, then - next step is to look at how each mode changes the three chord trick. Then you have a basic starting point to recognising the harmonic context where it would be appropriate to play that mode.

Let's try G dorian. The notes are G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G. Useing those notes to build chords on the root notes G, C & D we get these chords: Gm, C, Dm.

Notice that the G & D chords have become minor, but that the C is still a major chord. If you play arround with those three, particularly going between the Gm & the C, you can hear the harmonic sound of G dorian, rather than just the melodic sound. Try some G dorian leads over the top (follow the rules: no running the scale; aim at the chord notes) and hey presto, you're Carlos Santana.

Ok - let's try another mode. How about mixolydian?

G mixolydian = G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G

Build the three chord trick: G, C, Dm. Play those three and a differnt flavour comes out compared to either the simple G major, or G dorian. You may want to substitute the Dm for its relative major chord F, giving a progression like G, C, F, C, G.

Etc, etc...

G phrygian = G, Ab, Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G.
chords = Gm, Cm, Ddim (ouch! try substituting either an Fm or Ab)

G lydian = G, A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G
chords = G, Cdim, D (sub out the Cdim with an A with a strong G in the bass)

G aolian = G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G
chords = Gm, Cm, Dm

G locrian (if you must!) = G, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G
chords = Gdim, Cm, Db (try playing back & forth between Cm & D keeping a G in the bass - spooky!)

Sorry if that was a bit long & studious, but to me being able to compare the effect of the mode in question on something as basic as the three chord trick is a valuable way to get into this sort of thing.

[huw]

Part II:

(this time in reply to a specific querry about soloing using modes)

Originally Posted by huw

Well, the thing that often gets missed out about the modes, and precisely the thing I was touching on above, is that before you can solo in one of the modes, you need to have a suitable backing to play over.

In other words the chords have to fit the mode before you even begin to worry about the lead lines.

If the backing harmonies are relentleslsy in a major key, then modes are a non-starter, move along, nothing to see here, just find something nice to play using the major key. (For the nit-pickers who would argue that the major key is the Ionian mode I say well done, very clever, have a cookie & shut up. For our purposes we're taking about the other modes.)

The simplest sets of chords that I would call modal are where either:

(a) the whole progression suggests a mode

or

(b) the chords can't all be from a single mode, so they seem to imply a different mode for each chord.

An example of (a) would be the improv to No Quarter that got this thread going. Basically that's a whole lotta Dm to G. In isolation we could see those as the ii & V chords in C major, but in context the song itself tells us that it's in Dm. That's where the "home" of the song is, where the harmonic "pull" is towards. Of the D minor modes, the one where the G chord is major is D dorian, so that's where we are for the whole time.

An example of (b) would be this sucession of chords. You might recognise it from For The Love Of God by Steve Vai, but he got it from Black Napkins by Frank Zappa: Em9 to Fmaj7.
This is quite a cool trick - if the first chord was plain old Em or Em7, we could suggest that as both those chords are common to modes built from the C major scale we are in either E phrygian or F lydian. However, the Em9 foxes us: the 9th of Em is F#, which is obviously different from the F natural in the following chord. So that's a huge clue that we should think of each chord as a seperate mode.

The minor 9th could suggest either dorian (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7) or aolian (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7)

The maj7 can be either major (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) or lydian (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7)

In context: E dorian = E F# G A B C# D
E aolian = E F# G A B C D
F major = F G A Bb C D E
F lydian = F G A B C D E

If you look a that carefully you should see that the combination of a single E mode and a single F mode that gives the most notes in common is E dorian and F lydian, which are only one note different. So using E dorian to solo over the Em9, then F lydian to solo over the Fmaj7 gives an effect that seems sophisticated - in effect you are changing key/mode every chord change - but doesn't throw the listener too much, by being too different.

Anyway, going back to (a) again - where the whole progression suggests a mode. One of the ways to get started is to keep the chord progressions short & simple to begin with, and one of the best ways to achieve that is the way that Frank Gambale teaches in his books/DVDs on modes.

What you do is this: the bass plays the root note for the whole progression (sorry bass players, that's just how we're doing this ) and the rhythm guitar, keys or whatever play chords IV & V from the major scale the mode is derived from.

That sounds complicated but it's not - watch:

E dorian. Built from D major so play G & A over E bass

E phrygian. Built from C major so play F & G over E bass

E lydian. Built from B major so play E & F# over E bass (& try not to break into "Dreams" by Fleetwood Mac)

E mixolydian. Built from A major so play D & E over E bass

E aolian. Built from G major so play C & D over E bass

E locrian. Built from F major so play Bb & C over E bass.

You'll have to experiment a bit with rhythm & feel, particularly with locrian, but you should start to get the flavours.

Once you've done that a few times try it as a guessing game: get the bassist going on E, then get the rhythm guitarist to pick a mode without telling you which one. See how long it takes you to find it. Have him/her change modes every 16 bars to keep you on your toes...

Right, time to pick the kids up from school. Gotta go!

Have fun!

[huw]

Part III:

Originally Posted by huw

There's only one note difference between the two - C# in A mix vs C natural in G major - so try it & see if you like the effect, but see my previous answer...

=D> Bingo! You just hit right to the heart of the matter. The usual thing is to go with the simplest answer: if the whole progression can be explained as being in a single mode, then that's most often the best way to proceed. In your example G & A are both found in the modes based on D major. Depending on the emphasis that the actual progression puts on the two chords either could be seen as the "home", so you could have G lydian or A mixolydian (both of which feature exactly the same set of notes). So the progression as a whole fits a mode.

As an aside, on the internet people with a little learning (and some with more than a little, who should know better) will tell you that you switch modes as you switch chord - G lydian over the G chord & A mixolydian over the A. This is rubbish, don't fall for it. The only way in which those two are meaningfully different is when you play them from end to end, like a scale. When you are making music, that's the last thing that you want to be doing. Target the notes in the underlying chord & the one mode will see you through just fine, with less to think about as you go.

You only need to worry about switching the mode with the chord change if the chords do not fit into a single key/mode, like in the example I used before from For The Love Of God.

[huw]

Part IV:

(at this point someone had been talking about the "one scale per chord" approach)

Originally Posted by huw

...the key issue here - that whether you see things from the point of view of "what key is this progression in" or from the "one scale per chord" POV, the ultimate point is to get past all that & reach the music.

In some ways as long as the music is the goal, arguing for or against one or the other approach is a little like worrying whether a zebra is white with black stripes, or black with white stripes. Either way will get you there...

However, (could you see that coming? :wink: ) I do feel quite strongly that for anyone new to this stuff, and even for most people who aren't, the better approach is to find the key to the progression, note any exeptions, and play to the chord tones, and to leave the "one scale per chord" stuff until you can figure it out for yourself & explore the more technical aspects.

In a nutshell the problem that I see is that the following statement is not as true, or as straightforward, as it seems: "there is one scale for every chord". [-X

It has no context, and in music the context is everything.

It would be much truer to say "there are a number of possible scales for each chord" That number will depends on a number of things including the extensions of the chord, and the chords around it.

It's already been pointed out that an Am chord could go with a dorian or aolian scale. It could also take phrygian, or the 2nd mode of the melodic minor for example.

(EDIT: I'll stick to the modes of the major scale, bringing in the melodic minor etc will just muddy the waters)

You cannot see just an Am written down & know what scale will fit without seeing it in context. In other words, what are the other chords in the progression.

These progressions show again some different possibilities:

Am, D, Em, a la Whipping Post (A dorian)
Am, G, F, a la Stairway... (A aolian)
Am, E - well this could be seen a number of different ways: A harmonic minor, melodic minor etc

I could go on, but I hope that you get the point? This is why I say that you need to look at the whole progression, not just the chord as something distinct.

The next problem that people run into with the "one scale per chord" way of thinking is over complication.

Look at this simple progression that we've all seen/heard/played a zillion times before:

C, Dm, G7, C

It's a simple I, ii, V, I in C major.

Now there isn't much that gets me as mad as when I hear someone deal with this progression by saying: "dorian over the ii, mixolydian over the V & Ionian over the I"...

:evil:

It's un-necessary. It's over-complicating things. This is a ii, V, I in C.

A ii, V, I in C.

There's your clue, the C major note set will work over the whole thing.

Now, the one scale per chord guys might respond by saying that just running up & down the C major scale over the whole thing won't be very musical. That's true. But so what? Neither would running up & down the D dorian, G mixolydian & C major! It's just as true in that context as well.

So follow the two golden rules - don't just run the scale, & emphasise the chord tones - and C major will do nicely thank you, without having to worry about different modes. Forget to emphasise the chord tones & you sound like a "rock guy" - good, but not too sophisticated

While we're saying that, here's a quick quiz question: if you don't play the notes in scale order, what's the melodic difference between C major & D dorian? (hint - melodic, ignore harmony for a second)

Answer - nothing at all. No one who is listening to you play over that ii, V, I will be able to tell what you're thinking, they'll just hear the notes you play. So I say simplify what you're thinking, & let the music come through unobstructed.

Now just let me say here that I'm not against the "one scale per chord" thing in it's proper place. As Eli said, it's mainly a modern Jazz thing & is mainly used playing on tunes written that way ie modally. In that context it's entirely appropriate to think like that. All I'm trying to say here, & I realise that I'm probably labouring the point beyond anyone's level of interest, is that I think it's easiest to think about diatonic tunes in a diatonic way (ie if the tune is in one key, or one mode, then think about it like that) and to think about non-diatonic tunes on their own terms (ie if the tune changes mode frequently, then thinking of each chord in isolation may help).

I'm loosing my focus... I'll stop.

[Gyroman]

Yikes! I think my brain is going to implode! I haven't had time to deliberate, cogitate and digest all of that, but would I be correct in saying that modes are bloody useless unless the chord progression requires it? I'm not going to look big and clever by playing a locrian based solo in Pretty Vacant???

Being serious for a moment: Thanks for your time and effort in posting these things. I'm very new to theory, and a lot of this stuff is a bit beyond my grasp at the moment; but if I read and re-read it enough, hopefully enough of it will seep through to my subconscious to help that little lightbulb in my brain light up when the time is right.

[huw]

Originally Posted by Gyroman

...would I be correct in saying that modes are bloody useless unless the chord progression requires it?

YES - EXACTLY

Thanks - it makes me happy when someone gets that bit. If you managed to pull that out of it first time through, you're on the right track.

[Solidasrock]

There is a more practical technique:

I just play what sounds good to my ears.

[huw]

If that works for you, then happyhappyhappy - the Music is all that matters.



I posted this stuff up so that anyone who does want to check out the modes can find some simple, accurate, reference material. Far too much of the "information" on the subject that crops up on the interweb is just plain wrong, or "half assed", as my US friends might say. That's all.

[GibsonByBirth]

Originally Posted by Solidasrock

There is a more practical technique:

I just play what sounds good to my ears.

This is a language for communicating music. How do you talk to other musicians about the process of making music? How do you make the sounds sound best if you can't communicate in the language? How do you take the next step in understanding what to do if you can't understand why what you do know works?

[GibsonByBirth]

Originally Posted by huw

If that works for you, then happyhappyhappy - the Music is all that matters.



I posted this stuff up so that anyone who does want to check out the modes can find some simple, accurate, reference material. Far too much of the "information" on the subject that crops up on the interweb is just plain wrong, or "half assed", as my US friends might say. That's all.

Thanks I believe that this was for me. It will take a couple of days but I will have questions.

[GibsonByBirth]

I worfed out the modes from the notes given and I came up with the corresponding scales. What is the difference between scales and modes?

[huw]

In practice, not a great deal... sometimes.

There are various ways I could answer the question, but most would be talking about either historical differences, or derivations etc, rather than talking about how we use them.

As I see it a "mode" can refer to either a "scale", or a "key":

Most often "scale" means laying out all the notes of a key, in order. Looked at like that a "mode" can be a "scale".

But a "mode" can refer to a "key" as well, which was kind of where we began this thread: the key/mode consists of the harmony made from the chords built on the notes of the scale/mode.

(I'm sure someone will chip in with the definition that a mode is a rearrangement of a major scale (or other scale), but our whole point here is to see them existing away from any "parent" scale that they might happen to be a mode of.)

[Phil47uk]

Great post Huw...

[mcmurray]

Great thread.

[markbastable]

I'm very happy I found this thread.

[huw]

A blast from my past! Hope it's useful to you.

[JonR]

An excellent reference chart indeed, and I hope huw won't mind if I take it a little further.

Looking at the chart as it is, it might seem to imply (and I'm guessing this is not huw's view ) that all the modes are relatively equal, that you can employ all 7 chords in each mode as easily as you can in a major key. But it doesn't quite work like that...

Here's (roughly) how it does work...

C Major/Ionian
Chords: C Dm Em F G7 Am Bdim
All 7 chords can freely be used in this key. The C tonic will assume a governing role - as a gravitational centre - because of the nature of the scale, and the fact that the main dissonance (Bdim, or a G7 chord, or an F-G or Dm-G chord change) is resolved by moving to a C triad.
Plus, this is the most familiar sound in western music.

C Dorian
Chords: Cm Dm Eb F7 Gm Adim Bb
Used at random, these chords will tend to pull towards a Bb major tonic.
To preserve the sense of a Cm key chord, it's best to limit the chords to Cm, F7, Dm and Bb. But only use Bb briefly, ideally followed by Cm. Never follow F7 with Bb (always go back to Cm).
The typical C dorian piece only uses two chords: Cm and Dm, or Cm and F or F7.

C Phrygian
chords: Cm Db Eb7 Fm Gdim Ab Bbm
Used at random, these chords will tend to pull towards an Ab major tonic.
Phrygian is a weak mode. Best to limit the chords to just Cm and Db, play Cm most of the time, and use the Db as a contrasting chord, always pulling back to Cm.

C Lydian
Chords: C D7 Em Fdim G Am Bm
Used at random, these chords will tend to pull towards a G major tonic.
Lydian is as weak as Phrygian. Limit chords to C and D, and it's usually best to retain a C bass under the D chord, as well as making sure the C is much more emphasised than the D.
Bm can be used instead of D as a contrast chord, but again, make sure C is more prominent.

C Mixolydian
chords: C7, Dm, Edim, F, Gm, Am, Bb
Used at random, these chords will tend to pull towards an F major tonic.
Mixolydian is a relatively strong mode, but it's still best to limit the chord use, if only because the key chord (C7) is such a familiar sound as the dominant of F. You have to stop it sounding like it's waiting to go to F all the time. You can use an F chord in C mixolydian, but make it brief! Avoid the Edim chord. You can use all the other chords but, as with other modes, best to play the C7 for much longer than any other chord.
C, Bb and F triads can be combined to give familiar mixolydian sounds, such as:
|C / / / |C / Bb F|C... (loop)

C Aeolian (aka natural minor)
chords: Cm, Ddim, Eb, Fm, Gm, Ab, Bb7
As the natural minor scale, this is a fairly strong mode (comparable to dorian and mixolydian), but still weaker than the minor key itself. Used at random, these chords are likely to lead to Eb as natural tonic.
The difference from the C minor key is the use of Gm rather than G or G7. G or G7 will drive the harmony more firmly towards Cm, creating the sense of "key", and turning the ear away from expecting Eb as "home". Gm-Cm (or Bb-Cm) is a weaker "modal cadence" - quite usable, but be careful about using the Eb chord at all in any C aeolian progression.
Common sequences in C aeolian involve Ab and Bb as passing chords.

C Locrian (hardly ever used as such, included for completeness)
chords: Cdim, Db, Ebm, Fm, Gb, Ab7, Bbm
As huw says "hardly ever used". This is because its root chord is an unstable diminished triad. Our familiarity with functional harmony means we expect such a chord to resolve somewhere else, not to be a key chord in its own right. You can't resolve to a diminished chord. All of the other chords in this set are more stable than Cdim, the most stable being the relative major tonic, Db.

[huw]

Originally Posted by JonR

...Looking at the chart as it is, it might seem to imply (and I'm guessing this is not huw's view )...

Yes, you guess correctly Jon.

As the first post said, this spun off from a conversation in a previous thread (I can't even remember which) and at the time of posting it seemed most relevant to simply show the chords themselves, and how they varied from mode to mode, than it did to delve into usage.

This is a different time though, and the extra info is more than welcome .

[LiveSimply]

Huw/JonR, thank you once again for taking the time to share your knowledge. We are quite fortunate to have you guys on the forum.

[Thermionik]

Originally Posted by huw

People on here aften ask the wrong question - we get lots of "what scale should I play over this chord".

What they would be better off asking is "what key/mode is this song in?"

Can't they just hear what to play, what sounds good or "right".....

[markbastable]

Originally Posted by Thermionik

Can't they just hear what to play, what sounds good or "right".....

Yeah, but sometimes not until I've played what sounds bad or 'wrong'.

This thread is all about music theory, which is something I've tried to avoid for about thirty years. However, it occurred to me comparatively recently that, whether or not I could hear what to play, I was interested in why what sounds right sounds good and why what sounds bad sounds wrong. And as I haven't been able to work that out empirically after thirty years of footling around on the fretboard, I decided that it was time to stop being lazy ('cos that's all it was) and do a bit of theoretical work.

For me, this thread is the latest tranche of information in that endeavour, and I find it very useful. More to the point, understanding the theory has had a real effect practically. I've improved more as a player in the last six months than I did in the preceding two decades.

[twst1up]

Originally Posted by GibsonByBirth

This is a language for communicating music. How do you talk to other musicians about the process of making music? How do you make the sounds sound best if you can't communicate in the language? How do you take the next step in understanding what to do if you can't understand why what you do know works?

ignorance is bliss....

I can't sight read...learned when i was little, but I can't do it....but I sure like learning about theory. It's essential....ESSENTIAL!!!!

"i play what sounds goooood man..." That's like an illiterate telling you they don't need to know how to read because they know how to talk just fine.

[SoWhat?]

This thread should be a "Sticky"

.

[huw]

Originally Posted by Thermionik

Can't they just hear what to play, what sounds good or "right".....

That's a fantastic goal, but for many people getting there takes some work. For muself I found that I would "hear" certain things to play only after I had been exposed to them through study.

The point of this thread wasn't that people "need" this stuff; it was because those people who do want to know about this are often confronted with internet sites full of mixed up half truths, conflicting information, and stuff that is plain wrong. I wanted to put a bunch of stuff that was actually correct, all in one place, if only so that I could find it quickly when I wanted to. That's why the title was "For reference..."

[JonR]

Originally Posted by Thermionik

Can't they just hear what to play, what sounds good or "right".....

Sometimes yes.

Like learning a language, you can learn music entirely by ear if you want. The advantage with music over a foreign language is that we know already when something sounds wrong. We've heard music all our lives which follows the rules of "sounding right", and the grammar of that goes into our heads, so we can immediately spot when something's wrong. We just don't know what it is.
So you can learn music by a kind of trial and error, learning to "avoid the bad notes": learning (step by step) what kind of rules, patterns and formulas allow one to avoid the bad notes, and only play with the good ones.

Of course, it then becomes an issue of "how good", or "what kind of good"... Most notes (at any one moment) are "good". But some may be better than others, and that's a much more subtle (and flexible) set of rules to learn (can take a lifetime).

What theory does is (firstly) to give names, labels and written signs to the sounds, so one can start to think about them in a more organised fashion. One can read (and talk and write) about music, and therefore learn things more quickly that way.

The fact is (unfortunately for those that believe in "total creative freedom") that "good" sounds are generally familiar ones, that follow well-understood rules. A "bad" sound is one that breaks the rules, that's outside the rules. That's for the very simple reason that the rules themselves derive from what most people considered were "good" sounds. And naturally they're the ones that get used most, and so get more familiar, and so seem more "natural".
(As I've said before, it's not possible to make a musical sound that you think is "good" that breaks any theoretical rules. The good sounds are all covered.)

However, the rules have flexibility built in. That's a very important point to understand. We often say that theory is about "guidelines" not "laws". You can follow simple rules faithfully and get reliably "good" sounds. But you won't get anything very exciting. What makes music moving, exciting, absorbing, is the artistic juggling of the rules, the way they can be mixed in an infinite number of ways, and the way our expectations can be subverted. (Composers can use familiar moves, encouraging certain expectations, and then make the music go somewhere else, as a surprise. But it takes intelligence, experience, and musical taste to do that well.)

The ear always rules, of course. No matter how much theory we know, the ear is the final judge. There's always a point at which the theory stops, and creativity, personal choice, takes over. We can use theory to get us off the ground, but we use our ears to "fly"... (cue picture of Dumbo... )


One last thing: "music theory" - as generally understood and taught - deals almost exclusively with pitch and pitch relationships: notes, scales, chords, keys, harmony. What it doesn't deal with very much (if at all) are other crucial musical factors such as rhythm, timbre, tone, expression, articulation, etc. Some of these things are impossible to break down into writable formulae, that's why. (In theory, rhythm tends to be reduced to counting, duration, simplified forms of timing. Any jazz or blues player knows it's a whole lot more than that.)
Timbre is something very important in rock music (just look at how obsessive guitarists get with types of distortion...), yet theory has nothing to say about that at all.
So theory certainly has its limitations. Essentially it is just "some information". That's all. Information is good, of course; but it comes in many many forms...

[b-squared]

Nice reference...thread stuck.

BB

[huw]

I got a sticky! Wow - thanks for that. Two years after the thread was started this seems to have gone balistic today!

[huw]

Rather embarasingly I've just spotted a typo in my OP. Anyone spot it?

Originally Posted by huw

...Lydian
notes: 123#4567
chords: Maj, dom7, min, dim, Maj, min, min
writen: I,II7, iii, #iv(dim), V, vi, vii
in C lydian: notes CDEF#GAB
Chords: C D7 Em Fdim G Am Bm...

Last line should read "Chords: C D7 Em F#dim G Am Bm.

Sorry...