Easy Modal Chord lesson / number series teaching

[blakem]

this will teach you what chords go with each note of the major scale, how to use the number system...

YouTube - Easy Modal Chord lesson / Number system lesson

YouTube - Easy Modal Chord lesson / Number system lesson

[Lampens]

Well, my head hurts. I was just noodling about trying to apply the little theoretical knowledge I have to chords. Thinking about the major scale and figuring out chords with that. See if that actually would work out. So I started with the seventh chord. The seventh in the c major scale being the b note. Why is it that the c7 chord, the note that makes it a 7 chord is actually a b flat? This applied to all chords. In like the a7 it not being the a flat but a g. Why is that damn chord not named a cflat7 chord or something? Who the hell invented this shit? Where is the logic in that?
I didn't even try to figure out if 2 and 6th chords worked. The 5 seemed to work out right everytime.
Googled this stuff and the 7th in a chord is actually a flat seventh. They agreed to that in some bygone century. Name those chords something else then. This shit is not making understanding theory and applying it any easier.

[L60N]

Originally Posted by Lampens

Well, my head hurts. I was just noodling about trying to apply the little theoretical knowledge I have to chords. Thinking about the major scale and figuring out chords with that. See if that actually would work out. So I started with the seventh chord. The seventh in the c major scale being the b note. Why is it that the c7 chord, the note that makes it a 7 chord is actually a b flat? This applied to all chords. In like the a7 it not being the a flat but a g. Why is that damn chord not named a cflat7 chord or something? Who the hell invented this shit? Where is the logic in that?
I didn't even try to figure out if 2 and 6th chords worked. The 5 seemed to work out right everytime.
Googled this stuff and the 7th in a chord is actually a flat seventh. They agreed to that in some bygone century. Name those chords something else then. This shit is not making understanding theory and applying it any easier.

flat7 (b7) is in the minor scale mate.

OR are you talking of flatting the 7th to make the maj7th chord? That's called maj7.

From arpeggios, major arp (1,3,5,7)

maj7, you get the major7 by flatting the 7th note half a step, flatting once more for dominant7.

The seventh in the c major scale being the b note. Why is it that the c7 chord, the note that makes it a 7 chord is actually a b flat?

This is because of the diatonic scale mate:

Whole step, Half step etc mate:

W W H W W W H

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 O

So for C:

C D E F G A B C

Half a step down from C to B IS B, there is no sharp/flat inbetween.

[Lampens]

I need some aspirin. I only know 7th chords written as just c7 or a7 or b7. So yeah I was talking about making the maj7th chord. It never says if it is in a major or minor scale on tabs or sheet music as far as I know. So I figured if I needed to make that chord somewhere else on the neck. i just need to find the 7 of the major scale of that chord and put that with the root and the 3 or something. I know there are no flats between the b and c and e and f. I know the cmajor scale has no flats. I was rolling from that knowledge, the whole whole semi whole whole whole semi thing. the last semi being the 7 and then finding out that the 7 in a 7 chord is actually a semi below that semi according to some dead barokian age dude or something.
So I probably can't figure out what a 2 chord is by just putting the 2 of the scale of that chord in the major chord of that scale. With the 5 chord it seemed to work out everytime. There are probably soem miraculous rules that make that note a semitone higher or lower too than the actual 2 of that major scale.

[L60N]

Originally Posted by Lampens

I need some aspirin. I only know 7th chords written as just c7 or a7 or b7. It never says if it is in a major or minor scale. So I figured if I needed to make that chord somewhere else on the neck. i just need to find the 7 of the major scale of that chord and put that with the root and the 3 or something. I know there are no flats between the b and c and e and f. I know the cmajor scale has no flats. I was rolling from that knowledge, the whole whole semi whole whole whole semi thing. the last semi being the 7 and then finding out that the 7 in a 7 chord is actually a semi below that semi

Haha, you love it!!!

Here ya go:



I think I need to apologize, I thought when you wrote b7, as in your first post, I thought you meant flat7 in the major7 arpeggio. b7 is the 7th note in the minor scale, again just flatting the major 7th.

[blakem]

all I am trying to show is that in the major scale there are 7 notes.. these notes are also chords..
they are numbered 1 through 7..
the 1, 4 and 5 are major chords
the 2, 3 and 6 are minor chords
the 7 is a diminished chord.
So, with the number system if you play with a group of people and they say in the key of C lets play a 1, 3, 6 progression, you know that the 1 is an C major chord, the 3 is a E minor chord, the 6 is an A minor chord... it always works that way no matter what key you play in... you just need to learn what notes are in the individual major scales.... the chord patterns are always the same.. major, minor, minor, major, major ,minor, diminished... hope this helps...

[Lampens]

I'm sorry Blakem, I was not directing my confusion at you. I've heard of that major minor chord diminished thing before. Something somebody invented at one time too. Same with the modes. You just need to learn that. I now need to remember that the 7th in a 7 chord is actually a flattened 7, because I guess somebody just figured that needed to be a rule, not going by the actual number, at least in my eyes.
So I don't really know anymore what the hell I can use that major scale thing for when trying to figure out chords, if they don't really use the true steps designating the numbers.

I like your lessons. Just something you really need to learn and remember and you can't figure it out with basic reasoning I guess.

[blakem]

Originally Posted by Lampens

I'm sorry Blakem, I was not directing my confusion at you. I've heard of that major minor chord diminished thing before. Something somebody invented at one time too. Same with the modes. You just need to learn that. I now need to remember that the 7th in a 7 chord is actually a flattened 7, because I guess somebody just figured that needed to be a rule, not going by the actual number, at least in my eyes.
So I don't really know anymore what the hell I can use that major scale thing for when trying to figure out chords, if they don't really use the true steps designating the numbers.

I like your lessons. Just something you really need to learn and remember and you can't figure it out with basic reasoning I guess.

no problem my man, this lesson isn't about chord construction, only about how the chords make up a major scale, how it determines what modes are major and minor, and what chord is in the # system weather its major or minor... Dont Think to hard! It will mess you up every time..

[blakem]

Was this to hard to understand? Let me know, I can re-do the video to make it easier... sorry if it seems confusing to anyone... let me know..
Thanks,
Mike

[a Mad Cow]

Dude, I don't know if it's just good timing, or your simplistic approach, but I've watched your videos on a couple things now and HOLY SHIT, is it all finally starting to come together.

I've had all the ingredients in my head, as I studied this partly in college, but actually putting it all into one pot to cook has been trouble, specifically modes and finding the right chords.

Thanks so much, your presentation has taken all these pieces of the puzzle I've had lying around and put them together for me.

[blakem]

Originally Posted by a Mad Cow

Dude, I don't know if it's just good timing, or your simplistic approach, but I've watched your videos on a couple things now and HOLY SHIT, is it all finally starting to come together.

I've had all the ingredients in my head, as I studied this partly in college, but actually putting it all into one pot to cook has been trouble, specifically modes and finding the right chords.

Thanks so much, your presentation has taken all these pieces of the puzzle I've had lying around and put them together for me.

AWESOME!!!!!! That makes me feel good! I love teaching this stuff... everyone makes it sooo hard, when it really doesn't have to be...

[a Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by blakem

AWESOME!!!!!! That makes me feel good! I love teaching this stuff... everyone makes it sooo hard, when it really doesn't have to be...

You're not joking when you say they make it too complicated. You should of been teaching music theory at my college full sail, my teacher was decent, but explained things in a way so much more complicated. You're approach is okay, memorize this, apply it here. Simple as that. Thanks again.

[L60N]

All the arpeggios of each chord all fit perfectly within the major scale pattern too.

I like to base everything off the major scale, it all starts there, even the minor scale, relative minor being the VI (aeolian).

So a minor blues wouldnt be a I, IV , V its --> VI, II, III.

Thats right Blake yeah?

[blakem]

Originally Posted by L60N

All the arpeggios of each chord all fit perfectly within the major scale pattern too.

I like to base everything off the major scale, it all starts there, even the minor scale, relative minor being the VI (aeolian).

So a minor blues wouldnt be a I, IV , V its --> VI, II, III.

Thats right Blake yeah?

hmmmmm, it's funny. I always play it in the 1, 4, 5 position but play the chords minor instead of major... thats a good question L60n, I'll have to see when I get home...

[L60N]

Originally Posted by blakem

hmmmmm, it's funny. I always play it in the 1, 4, 5 position but play the chords minor instead of major... thats a good question L60n, I'll have to see when I get home...

Well 1,4 & 5 are as you say "Major". So sticking with that idea, and as I said in my above post, all the chords within a key fitting perfectly into the scale pattern, the player need only need memorize the Chord shapes in five patterns. If you do that all 7 positions within a key, will become second nature after a while.

Have a look at this Mike if you get a second, its illustrating my post.

A tip in soloing

[blakem]

Originally Posted by L60N

Well 1,4 & 5 are as you say "Major". So sticking with that idea, and as I said in my above post, all the chords within a key fitting perfectly into the scale pattern, the player need only need memorize the Chord shapes in five patterns. If you do that all 7 positions within a key, will become second nature after a while.

Have a look at this Mike if you get a second, its illustrating my post.

A tip in soloing

right on....

[doza808]

So Blakem, as I was watching your video, I noticed that I plug in a different pattern when I start at the 5th fret. The pattern I use is this:

5 6 7 8 9
e-----------x-----x----x
B-----------x-----x----x
G------x----x-----x-----
D------x----x-----x-----
A--x--------x-----x-----
E--x--------x-----x-----

I know that they are all the same notes that you played but do I still plug in your formula? The Maj, Min, etc.? (Don't remember ) I haven't had a "light bulb" moment in a long time but I'm sure it'll happen when I figure out that formula. Thanks so much for these videos brother!

[Lampens]

For making a minor blues in the I IV V structure. isn't adding a II or a VI making it minor? Like in need your love by Fleetwood mac. The F# chord and the B chord in there are like the 2 and 6 right? In the I IV V of A D and E. And you have that fancy chord that after the D barre 5th fret you make like a d7 figure barre but move the d on the 5th fret up to 6th ret D# I just don't know what chord that is. I don't play the F# and B as minor chords but they make a minor thing out of it right?
Just brainstorming this stuff right now. I have no trust in my reasoning whatsoever with this

YouTube - Need your love so bad (usa version)

YouTube - Need your love so bad (usa version)

[L60N]

Adding the II and VI to the minor penatonic scale adds more flavour, and also determines the mode. II and VI is Dorian, 2 and b6 is Aeolian, b2 and b6 is Phrygian etc.

You dont add II & VI to a scale to make it minor. These intervals are already in the major scale, so you cant add them, nor is it a minor scale.

I have always thought of it like this and Im sorry if you already get it but im just explaining from start to finish in a fast way.

Start with the chord intervals (I III V), say in C would be C, E, F then add in the other intervals I want so:

Chord (I III V) In minor the III is lowered one step to m3. (Eb)

If I want a minor Pent -> I therefore add 4 & b7 = minor (F & Bb)
Or a major pent -> I therefore add 2 & 6 = major. (D & B)

Mode:

Minor mode example -> add 2 & 6 = Dorian, or 2 & b6 = Aeolian
Major mode example -> add 4 & 7 = Ionian or 4# & 7 = Lydian

In reality, you dont think about it in those long terms, but after a while of practice, you'll know second nature what is where, but this takes practice practice practice!! And im still on that long road.

Apart from the root, I dont worry about what the individual notes are within each key, I focus only on the number. Call me lazy.

Does that make any sense. If I made any mistakes im sorry, im rushing through at work.

[huw]

Originally Posted by L60N

...maj7, you get the major7 by flatting the 7th note half a step, flatting once more for dominant7...

Er, no.

The major 7 is the major 7. No flattening of anything. 7th note of C major is B - there it is, nothing to flatten.

Then you flatten once (not once more) to get the b7 = Bb.

[L60N]

Originally Posted by huw

Er, no.

The major 7 is the major 7. No flattening of anything. 7th note of C major is B - there it is, nothing to flatten.

Then you flatten once (not once more) to get the b7 = Bb.

Yep my bad! Confusion with lowering the 2nd root position to form the chord shape..

Its hard remembering EVERYTHING and writing it down without a guitar in your hands sometimes!

If i'da said "maj7, you get the major7 by flatting the 2nd root note half a step, flatting once more for dominant7"

Then it wouldve been ok.

Thanks for keeping my pencil sharp!

[huw]

Originally Posted by Lampens

...I now need to remember that the 7th in a 7 chord is actually a flattened 7, because I guess somebody just figured that needed to be a rule, not going by the actual number, at least in my eyes.

It's just become a convention to use 7 for b7 while maj7 is explicitly described.

The reason is that the first seventh chords of any description to become accepted by listeners as sounding ok, and not a horrible dischord (because remember, at one point in history even thirds were thought of as a dischord) was the seventh chord built on the V chord - aka the dominant chord (because the fifth note is called the dominant note) which is where the name dominant seventh comes from. It just got shortened to seventh. It was a lot later when major seventh chords gained similar acceptance, and as the name "seventh" was already taken they were called "major seventh" chords.

So I don't really know anymore what the hell I can use that major scale thing for when trying to figure out chords, if they don't really use the true steps designating the numbers...

You can use it fine. All you need to remember in addition to what blakem said in his video is this:

All three of the minor chords (ii, iii, and vi) become m7 chords because they all add the flat seventh to the minor triad.

Two of the major chords - I & IV - become maj7 chords, because they add the major seventh note to the major traid.

One of the major chords - V - becomes a 7 chord, as we saw above.

The diminished triad becomes a m7b5 chord (you have root, minor third, diminished 5th & flat 7th)

[huw]

Originally Posted by L60N

...iI like to base everything off the major scale, it all starts there, even the minor scale, relative minor being the VI (aeolian).

So a minor blues wouldnt be a I, IV , V its --> VI, II, III.

Thats right Blake yeah?

Well that's a really funny way to think about it, if you don't mind me saying.

A minor key is a minor key...

Technically you're right - the i, iv, v of Am is the same chords as vi, ii, iii of C major (Am, Dm, Em) - but the tonality is an A tonality - that's where "home" is.

Take "Black Magic Woman" (actually Dm I think but what they hey) - there's no way that tune sounds like it's in the relative major, the pull of all the tension is towards the minor key.

If you sart thinking back to the relative major with minor keys, there's a good chance you'll be thinking the same way with the other relative modes too, and IMHO no-one ever got far with modes before breaking away from the parent key.

Just my tuppence...

[huw]

Originally Posted by blakem

Was this to hard to understand? Let me know, I can re-do the video to make it easier... sorry if it seems confusing to anyone... let me know..
Thanks,
Mike

The video is great blakem.

I just have one suggestion:

This is really a major scale lesson, pure & simple, nothing modal in it (yet ) so I think you could make it even easier to take in by taking the word "Modal" out of the title.

But I really like the "one idea per video" approach you've got going on - right to the point!

[huw]

Originally Posted by L60N

Thanks for keeping my pencil sharp!

Not trying to jump on you or anything - but I couldn't let that one slip by!

[L60N]

Originally Posted by huw

Well that's a really funny way to think about it, if you don't mind me saying.

Not at all

Originally Posted by huw

Technically you're right - the i, iv, v of Am is the same chords as vi, ii, iii of C major (Am, Dm, Em) - but the tonality is an A tonality - that's where "home" is.

Im not sure if I follow, if not please forgive my ignorance, but I think of the VI chord being home in this respect, not I.

Originally Posted by huw

Take "Black Magic Woman" (actually Dm I think but what they hey) - there's no way that tune sounds like it's in the relative major, the pull of all the tension is towards the minor key.

If you sart thinking back to the relative major with minor keys, there's a good chance you'll be thinking the same way with the other relative modes too, and IMHO no-one ever got far with modes before breaking away from the parent key.

Just my tuppence...

No, its in a relative minor key to my mind.

Huw, im still learning myself, spending many hours slowly muddling through (being self taught thus far). Ive been at it for coming up to 3 years so still very much on the learning curve. I may very well be making mistakes along the way? Maybe this is the time to look for a good teacher to put some more perspective on things?

Maybe I should stop offering my thoughts in the lessons section too, not being a teacher?

I mean all of that sincerely too. I wouldnt want to pass on duff advice, I was just sharing my thoughts, maybe not a good idea if its not following convention...

Thanks again.

[a Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by blakem

Was this to hard to understand? Let me know, I can re-do the video to make it easier... sorry if it seems confusing to anyone... let me know..
Thanks,
Mike

I have a request for a video. Can you please explain to me the circle of fifths. I've probably read 10 different sources on it but couldn't put together how it works. Now that I understand how to apply modes over chords, and which chords to play because of both of your videos, I think if I had one explanation that was quick and dirty about the circle from the only guy who's every really given me a musical theory eureka - I think I might finally grasp it.

[doza808]

Originally Posted by a Mad Cow

I have a request for a video. Can you please explain to me the circle of fifths. I've probably read 10 different sources on it but couldn't put together how it works. Now that I understand how to apply modes over chords, and which chords to play because of both of your videos, I think if I had one explanation that was quick and dirty about the circle from the only guy who's every really given me a musical theory eureka - I think I might finally grasp it.

Yes, that would be a great video!!

[huw]

Originally Posted by L60N

Im not sure if I follow, if not please forgive my ignorance, but I think of the VI chord being home in this respect, not I...

...its in a relative minor key to my mind.

Okay - when a tune is in a minor key you have a different pattern of notes & chords to the one that blakem described in his video. In minor it goes:

minor, dim, maj, min, min, maj, maj, which we'd write as: i, iidim, bIII, iv, v, bVi, bVii.

What was chord vi in C major is now chord i in A minor because we're starting to count from a different place. Same chords, same order except that we start in a different place. We start at A as our tonic & proceed from there...

Things to notice - minor chords are lower case, majors are upper. The third, sixtrh & seventh chords are built on flattened notes (b3, b6 & b7 from the tonic) so we can use bIII to specify that it's a major chord built on the flat third of the key.

A minor blues in A would use Am, Dm, & Em - the i, iv & v. The "home" is Am because that's where the "pull" is towards - where the tune resolves to. That can be easiler to hear than to reason out on the page - if you just see the chords Am, Dm & Em we don't reallyt know if it's key of A minor or C major (or any of the other possibilities) until we hear it in context.

Here's another example - if a tune goes Am / / / Am / / / Am / / / C / / / and repeats that pattern, we're in A minor - that's "home" & it pulls us back there.

If the tune goes C / / / C / / / C / / / Am / / / we're in C major. Same notes, same chords, but a different place that's "home".

(Now - minor keys can get weird, & use chords built from the harmonic minor scale, the melodic minor scale or dorian or phrygian... but that's not for today )

...Huw, im still learning myself...

Me too - you have no idea how much new (to me) stuff I've been discovering recently - my head is spinning 24/7...

...Maybe I should stop offering my thoughts in the lessons section too, not being a teacher?

Heck no - how else do we a dialogue going if no-one says anything!

...I was just sharing my thoughts, maybe not a good idea if its not following convention...

...but because you did this thread has developed some more. No point lurking around on a forum - we're here to discuss...

[blakem]

I went home and tried this out and L60N was right, if you play a minor blues in the key of A minor, the chords lets say are A minor, D minor and E minor, these are the 2, 3 and 6 of the relative major of A minor which is C... So the formula is still correct... Thanks L60N!