A question for teachers

[Bad Golfer]

I've taken lessons for about five months from my present teacher. I like his approach a lot, very satisfied. I've been away for the summer and am about to resume my lessons.

My question is this: my lessons are one-half hour each week. Being older I don't pick up on things the way I used to when I was fifteen. Sometimes the half hour doesn't seem to be enough and only having a week between lessons doesn't seem to give me enough time to work on what the last lesson was. Would I be better off doing one hour lessons every two weeks? I think this would give me more constructive time with my teacher and more time to practice between lessons and be able to more forward at the next lesson instead of having to repeat what we went over in the previous lesson.

I plan to talk to my teacher about this but I know there are a bunch of long time teachers here and I thought I would get some other opinions.

Thanks for any input.

[5F6-A]

I'm a full time teacher although I do not teach guitar. Neverthless if you care for my oppinion I'd say that it all depends on his approach. Half an hour seems very sort time anyway. What about 45 mins per week? That makes more sense to me....

[zplapplap]

You run the risk of developing bad habits at home and reinforcing those mistakes for an extra week before it is corrected.

[River]

As a student, I did the half hour once a week for years and it worked out well. The time always seemed too short, but I think it would have seemed that way even with an extra 15-30 minutes.

I agree with zp - two weeks without a "reality check" could be detrimental.

[AngryHatter]

I paid my guitar teacher in any material I could get away with.
Cash...weed...whatever.
I had to have my hour every week.

[Phil47uk]

I teach guitar full time here in the UK.
In schools I do 15 mins a week..20 mins ..30 min..40 mins. I really comes down to what the pupils parents can afford.

At home however I only do 1-hour lessons, as these are ideally what I prefer to do to get things across and to go over it.

Personally I'd go for an hour ever two weeks.
This gives you time to take it all in and practise the stuff that you have been given.
Some people ask me if they should book an hour every week and I reply honestly with.." It's all according to how much time you can put in".
It's no use having lessons when you are just cramming in things and haven’t taken in what you did the previous week.
For instance, I might show you how basic primary chords are formed from the diatonic scale one week and give you a printed list of all the harmonized chords in all twelve keys. Then we take a song say like 'Knocking on heavens door' and work out the function of each of those chords say in the key of C.
Then using the chart I gave you, your homework is to write down the chord sequence of that song in all twelve keys..Then play it in all twelve keys.
Now if you are a busy person chances are that with all the will in the world you won't be able to put all the time in to do that.
So what happens?.. You turn up a week later after only going through half the stuff I gave you expecting to be shown something new.. And so it goes on, until six months down the line you have totally forgotten what we were doing.
I have witnessed this scenario time and time again and have come to the conclusion that in most cases, hourly lessons every two weeks work the best for most.
But! And here's the big But..During the two week period between lessons you must put what you are learning into action. Find a friend who can play and go over the songs with him/her. Get them to test you out on something like..OK we are going to play 'Knocking on heavens door' in the key of Eb.. What are the chords?
Going to any teacher without putting what you have learned into practicality ..ie.. Jamming with a friend or going to a local jam night is like taking tennis lessons and practising in front of a mirror in your bedroom. To progress you must get a match in .

All teachers have a different approach. Some will ask you 'What's your favourite song' and then proceed to spend the next hour going over it with you parrot fashion. That's ok if you want that sort of thing, but it's a bit like painting by numbers. I prefer to teach a person to teach himself or herself, but obviously to achieve that you have to know how the guitar works.
Likening it to a jigsaw puzzle, many people know chunks here and there, but can't see the whole picture. So like a jigsaw puzzle you start with the corners and straight edges. That way you have a solid framework to build upon.
But! The punter is the guy who's paying and I have had some that say.."I don't want to learn all that stuff man, just teach me a new AC/DC intro every week".. My answer to that is " That's fine by me, but please don't blame me when in the future some time someone says. "Jesus I thought you'd been taken lessons for the past three years".

What sort of stage are you at and what is this teacher going over with you?

Hope it's been of some help,
Cheers,

Phil.

[Bad Golfer]

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Phil47uk
This is the kind of input I was looking for. This is my second teacher. My first one was an excellent player (lead for a world touring band) but not a teacher. My current teacher although an unbelievable player is a good teacher. I've been at this for almost two years with both summers away from instruction. So my teaching has been about ten months and the first four not very productive.

As I said before at my age, 64, I don't pick up as quickly as a youngster would. Also my hearing isn't the best so I'm sure that has some effect.

I've spent quite a bit of time studying theory. More of an intellectual curiousity than anything else. My teacher said the goal is to get my ability to use the guitar up to speed with my theory knowledge.

My assignment over the summer was to "master the fretboard". He said this means I should know every note on the fretboard, what all the intervals are, and what they are by sound (Im having trouble with this), all without looking at the fretboard. I feel I now have a decent understanding of intervals so that I can play any scale (I relate all scales to the Major scale, i.e. the Mixolodian is the Major with a minor 7th), in any key, starting on any string, up or down in pitch, without looking at my left hand, using alternate picking.

As I told my instructor during our first meeting, my goal is to understand the guitar and to be able to physically utilize my knowledge of theory. He told me his goal is to eventually get me to the point that my fingers will automatically go to the sound I hear in my head without thinking about any of the mechanics involved.

I know this process will be slow and sometimes frustrating but if I work enough I will eventually be able to play anything I want and it will come from what I feel.

Thanks again, Phil

[b-squared]

Great post, Phil.

I like one-hour lessons each week. It allows time to review, go over something new, and jam a little bit to put it into practice.

BB

[Epiphone]

I'm not a teacher, but I understand where you are coming from - I'm brand new to guitar and playing music in general - I've only had 4 lessons thus far that are also 30min every week. I agree it does seem very short, but at the same time, I find when I am shown something, I never pick it up quick enough and just fumble around in front of the teacher. As soon as I get home and play with it, I have it down pat in 10-20min it seems (still simple stuff mind you), so it might not be beneficial for me at this stage to have 60min lessons. When I go for my next lesson, I play what I was sent with as "homework" and anything that I'm not doing quite right he will point out. The downside I guess is that you have a week of playing "your way" which may have some bad habits in it, but it shouldn't be too painful to correct either.

Taking weekly lessons also shows how fast a week goes by when you work full time! I try to play every night, but sometimes it's hard with things to do around the house and such. This is one reason I didn't start lessons until the fall as I knew I wouldn't have the time in the summer. That being said, I think two weeks might be too long in between.

I'm also curious on what the thoughts are of "those that have been there" as well as teachers.

[Phil47uk]

Originally Posted by Bad Golfer

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Phil47uk
This is the kind of input I was looking for. This is my second teacher. My first one was an excellent player (lead for a world touring band) but not a teacher. My current teacher although an unbelievable player is a good teacher. I've been at this for almost two years with both summers away from instruction. So my teaching has been about ten months and the first four not very productive.

As I said before at my age, 64, I don't pick up as quickly as a youngster would. Also my hearing isn't the best so I'm sure that has some effect.

I've spent quite a bit of time studying theory. More of an intellectual curiousity than anything else. My teacher said the goal is to get my ability to use the guitar up to speed with my theory knowledge.

My assignment over the summer was to "master the fretboard". He said this means I should know every note on the fretboard, what all the intervals are, and what they are by sound (Im having trouble with this), all without looking at the fretboard. I feel I now have a decent understanding of intervals so that I can play any scale (I relate all scales to the Major scale, i.e. the Mixolodian is the Major with a minor 7th), in any key, starting on any string, up or down in pitch, without looking at my left hand, using alternate picking.

As I told my instructor during our first meeting, my goal is to understand the guitar and to be able to physically utilize my knowledge of theory. He told me his goal is to eventually get me to the point that my fingers will automatically go to the sound I hear in my head without thinking about any of the mechanics involved.

I know this process will be slow and sometimes frustrating but if I work enough I will eventually be able to play anything I want and it will come from what I feel.

Thanks again, Phil

Hi Bad Golfer,
Yeah you are right about the age thing. ( Tell me about it ) I'm in your neck of the woods so know all about that.
Although I agree with your teacher re knowing the fretboard ( At some stage or another ) , I personally wouldn't go that route as it all very fine knowing where every note is, but what the hell do you do with these notes when you know them.
I would start of with knowledge of chords and chord construction for a start as well as a good right hand rhythm technique. Something I may add that most guitarists neglect and suck at . Stick to one or two simple linked pentatonic scales for instance and concentrate on squeezing the best out of those before wandering all over the fretboard.
How do you phrase for a simple solo for instance. Relating solos to telling a story. Working on feeling..breadth and light and shade. Just how knowledge of rhythms can benefit your soloing using micro rhythms on each separate string.
The way you are going is akin to asking someone to construct a whole jigsaw to somoene who has never done one before without giving them the tip about finding all the corners and straight edges first.
Yeah, the knowing all the fretboard is all very fine, but not in my opinion for a beginner. That sort of thing to me is the way most of these GT players learn.
Feel the music first and get to know how you can create interesting sounds and nuances with simple things,
For instance if you went for flying lessons, you'd expect the guy to show you to a Cessna and practise getting the feel of the thing. You wouldn't expect for him to give you Navigation charts for every airport around to study and remember.
I honestly think some people get obsessed by too much theory. OK yes you have to get to know the theory at some point, but they often miss out on the raw characteristic s of music.. ie.. Making it sound good.
You get those who think theory is the be and end all of everything and those that refuse to have anything to do with musical theory at all as somehow they get it into their mind it will cramp their style, whereas in fact they are both looking at music the wrong way.
As Miles Davis once so eloquently put it. " I'll play it first and tell you what it is later".

Obviously I can't criticise your teacher as I have never met him, or for that matter know where you are exactly at as a pupil or your personality which is very important , but personally I'd certainly not start off with something like that.
Theory without raw passion and feel is nothing, as is amply demonstrated in most cases when you go to you-tube and type in guitarist.

Phil.

[Bad Golfer]

Hi Phil

I wouldn't want to give you the wrong idea. You had asked where I am now.
At the start, the lessons were about how to hold the pick, the shape of the right hand (not anchored), how the move the right hand, alternate picking, etc. Other lessons were the left hand and how to move from chord to chord or note to note, string tension, etc. Later we moved to chord construction and all their derivations.

I can build or break down any chord and I know all the major and the minor keys in the circle of keys. I charted all the major, minor, augmented and diminished triads and their first and second inversions and learned to play them on the guitar. I did these things on my own.

Regarding theory, as I previously stated I started studying theory more of an intellectual curiousity than a requirement by either my first or current teacher.
As one of my theory books said: "Once you learn theory, forget it, play what you feel and hear in your head, don't think of theory. If you run into a dead end and are stuck then turn to theory and it may provide some ideas on how to break thru". This is how I think of theory. I also on my own studied
reading music. I've always thought that being able to read music is like learning another language. I can probably read 90 to 95 percent of sheet music now. Again I did this for its own sake, I realize it doesn't have much application to playing guitar but I'm glad I did it.

The most important thing for me is that I've always wanted to be able to play an instrument and make music and I'm on the road to accomplishing that.
While the progress may be slow I am improving and as long as I continue to improve I'm satisfied.

Again thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience.

[Phil47uk]

Originally Posted by Bad Golfer

Hi Phil

I wouldn't want to give you the wrong idea. You had asked where I am now.
At the start, the lessons were about how to hold the pick, the shape of the right hand (not anchored), how the move the right hand, alternate picking, etc. Other lessons were the left hand and how to move from chord to chord or note to note, string tension, etc. Later we moved to chord construction and all their derivations.

I can build or break down any chord and I know all the major and the minor keys in the circle of keys. I charted all the major, minor, augmented and diminished triads and their first and second inversions and learned to play them on the guitar. I did these things on my own.

Regarding theory, as I previously stated I started studying theory more of an intellectual curiousity than a requirement by either my first or current teacher.
As one of my theory books said: "Once you learn theory, forget it, play what you feel and hear in your head, don't think of theory. If you run into a dead end and are stuck then turn to theory and it may provide some ideas on how to break thru". This is how I think of theory. I also on my own studied
reading music. I've always thought that being able to read music is like learning another language. I can probably read 90 to 95 percent of sheet music now. Again I did this for its own sake, I realize it doesn't have much application to playing guitar but I'm glad I did it.

The most important thing for me is that I've always wanted to be able to play an instrument and make music and I'm on the road to accomplishing that.
While the progress may be slow I am improving and as long as I continue to improve I'm satisfied.

Again thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience.

Hi Bad Golfer.
Well obviously you are further on up the road than I thought you were. It's very difficult to assess where somebody is at without hearing them.
That's why when new pupils come and tell me at what stage they are at, I just say.. 'Pretend I'm not here and play me something'.

To quote an old saying 'The ultimate technique is to have no technique,l' but off course for that, as you said, you must go beyond theory and having to think about it.
The best way forward for anyone learning an instrument is to get gigging.
Play with friends..Go to jams ec etc.

Hope it's been of some help.

Phil.

[Quill]

I want to humbly encourage you to take the one-hour lessons once every two weeks. And, if you can, see if your teacher has some flexibility during the odd-weeks; if you have a breakthrough and cover a lot of material quickly, would he let you call him and come in for an "in-between" lesson, for whatever length was suitable? Unless his schedule prevents him, and it might, I think he'd probably go for it.

Bad Golfer - somehow I doubt your handle is truly descriptive - you sound like someone who is driven by interest and is well-organised and thoughtful and who needs not worry one bit about developing bad habits.

I am not a skilled teacher of music, but I do have some base for my comment. You remind me of a man who came to me for lessons once, a long time ago. I was young but I had a lot of varied experience, was not long out of a great music school, was playing pretty well, thinking clearly about music and had a lot to offer. I'd left a band and wasn't sure what to do next, and I'd taken a treadmill teaching job to pay the bills. Over 80 students a week ... mostly kids, all pretty great in their way but, wow, I didn't have the training to give what the majority seemed to need ... some kind of therapy, or counselling, more than music lessons. And when I saw that I only seemed to be able to help the "outliers" with their music - the best, and, weirdly, the seemingly worst - and just couldn't move the middling ones, I left that job and never taught music again.

But I had one fellow come in, who was in his sixties. Of the few students I remember from that madness, he's the most salient. He'd been a tradesman all his life, and his hands were pretty beat up, but he was open-minded, clear-headed, smart as hell and really, really talented. But, as I learned from him then and as I'm learning myself now, talent can become deeply buried under deleterious heaps of age and experience, and if you aren't constantly digging it out from under all that, it can get harder and harder to find.

It depends upon the relationship, too; I had only a sporadic year or two of teaching experience before this, and we both needed time to discuss our approach to his music, as his situation was unique to me at the time. But I always thought what he really needed was more time in the teaching studio when he was there, with more space between lessons so he could think about it all and practice at his own pace, as his own schedule permitted. That would have been great for him - especially given that he was dealing with hands that'd been hurt many, many times before he'd ever even thought to pick up a guitar. His mind was amazing but it took more effort for him to bring his hands in line with his understanding and intentions than it did the kids.

Obviously, with 80 students a week, they were half-hour lessons, and strictly timed, and giving that great older student the flexible hour he should have had was just not an option for me. I loved that he was coming for lessons at all, and it kinda killed me a little bit every week, knowing that I couldn't do better for him.

Which made it all the more terrible when he got sick, suddenly, and couldn't come at all anymore.

Which is why I, for one, think it absolutely vital that, if something is telling you to change the pattern of your studies, you probably know what you need to do, and should at least try it.

[Bad Golfer]

Hi Quill

Thanks for the perspective. I, like the gentleman you speak of, have a hard time getting my hands to respond the way I would like, but the more I practice the better it gets. It's still a chore however.

I am going to go over this with my teacher during my first lesson back. I am curious what his reaction will be. He seems to care very much about the progression of his students. I tend to feel that a student has to have faith and trust in his instructor. If not then you need to find another instructor.
I do really like this guy, however I'm always asking why. I have a need to understand what I'm being asked to do not just do it. He welcomes these questions and has stated a few times that in all his years of teaching he's never been asked that question. He seems to like the challenge.

I'll probably go with what he suggest, but only after he has convinced me why it is the best way.

This thread has helped me clarify this subject, so to all that have responded a big thanks.

[Quill]

I think that the work done by an "older" student with a teacher plays out in a way that necessarily interrogates the method of work. It seems to me that student and teacher both have to actively and constantly work out a way of learning and knowing that fits with the way a specific, mature, uniquely developed mind thinks and acts. It almost becomes as much an inquiry into epistemology as into music! And that has to be part of the fun. (I don't mean the sort of witty time-wasting distractions-disguised-as-questions that some students will generate for all kinds of silly reasons, usually to cover up their failure to properly prepare; I think I mean what you mean, which are really important questions, substantial questions, but which don't always have to take a long time. Or have immediate answers!)

I don't believe an older student becomes (or should I say, remains) a student at all without constantly fielding the "why" - why bother, if not? - it seems necessary to "our" progress - I say "our" because, when maturity is a factor in the student-teacher dynamic, the boundaries between each become a bit fuzzy, and both concerned have to work together, dynamically, or no-one will learn anything.

Oh, jeez, listen to me go on and on. Point being - it's all too heady for a humble half an hour! I hope your studies go well, and will expect a similar well-wish in return!

[itchybro]

RECORD your lessons.

I could always give somebody MORE than enough material to work on for the following week in half an hour.

[Bad Golfer]

Thanks itchybro, I've thought of that and used it in other things beside the guitar. It really can be quite useful. Especially when short term memory isn't what it used to be.

[samashfordsmith]

I would sit down with your instructor and between you construct a daily practice routine. Even if its just 20-30 minutes a day. This should help "fill the gap" between each lesson, and hopefully get you into the swing of things more.

Sam

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by zplapplap

You run the risk of developing bad habits at home and reinforcing those mistakes for an extra week before it is corrected.

Yeah 30 mins can go by fast, I would have student tune-up, do quick review of last week, work any any troubles on that material, then start a few new songs etc. or scales,

I used to charge $15 per half hour, and I would cut a small break $25 if they wanted to do an hour. It's a good way for students not playing out in bands to get more real "Playing time " in as well. Had a guy do hour lessons every Sat. for almost 7 years. Some people can barely make it though 30 mins depends.