Scale to Chords Question

[hedzeppelin]

Ok, I'm looking for some new licks.
If I'm playing a blues ditty in a major key (I, IV, V progression), I currently use the blues scale (pentatonic minor) and the pentatonic major (I) and when the chord changes to the IV, I can stay on the blues scale, and or play the IV pentatonic (major). Same deal when the chord changes to the V.
For example, Key of A:
I - A blues & A pentatonic
IV - A blues & A pentatonic and D pentatonic
V - A blues & A pentatonic and E pentatonic

Are there any other scales (besides the major scale) that I can use in this type of progression?

Thanks!

[hedzeppelin]

So, are there only owners and no players here? No one can give me any suggestions?

[thefishingline]

I haven't a clue!! I have not run a scale since the first year I started in 72' and all I do is play by ear....wish I knew more...I get very frustrated trying to learn..

[GuitarGal]

No clue~ sorry dude~

[Markster]

You can also play the country (Maj) pentatonic. (In your A I, IV, V) The A Maj pentatonic is equal to the notes in the F# min pentatonic. I also love arpeggios With accidentals added for flavour.

[johnreardon]

Been playing for 45 years and never interested in analysing what I play, just do whatever comes into my fingers via my brain. If it's in key, then great, if not, it's jazz.

Sometimes think that people spend too much time in trying to theorise about things that they forget the emotion part of music. It's not all about theory and speed.

[hedzeppelin]

Markey, Right, the country scale is the pure pentatonic, which I referred to above, but thanks anyway.
John, that's fine...everyone has their own way of playing. However, scales are basically "tools".

In other words, when I walk into a jam situation, I want to be able to jam to any chord progression that's thrown at me. Therefore, I pull out different "tools" to get the job done.

Such as, if the key is a minor key, can I play the "Blues Scale"? Yes. Can I play the pure "country scale" no. Why? Because that particular scale is used against major chords.

[hedzeppelin]

Same deal with chords. I don't usually use 11th or 13th chords. However, if I'm in a situation that calls for them, I can play a 7th chord, and it will fit.
It won't give the coloration that the 11th and 13th chords render, but the 11th and 13th chords are derivtives of the dominant 7th chord family. Bearing
in mind that chords are formulated from the major scale:

C major scale

1......2......3....4....5....6....7
C......D......E....F....G...A....B

Now, the formula for a dominant 7th chord is: 1,3,5 b7.
Therefore, the notes in the C7 chord are:C,E,G,Bb

The formula for an 11th chord is: 1,3,5,b7,9,11

Well...wait a minute...there are only 7 notes in the major scale! How do we
get "9" and "11"? Simple. "9" is actually "2" and "11" is actually "4".

1......2......3....4....5....6....7
C......D......E....F....G...A....B
........9...........11........13

So, the notes in the C11th chord are: C,E,G,Bb,D,F.
Note that the first 4 notes comprise a C7th chord.
So, if I play a C7 chord instead of a C11 chord, it will indeed fit.

[johnreardon]

Originally Posted by hedzeppelin

John, that's fine...everyone has their own way of playing. However, scales are basically "tools".

In other words, when I walk into a jam situation, I want to be able to jam to any chord progression that's thrown at me. Therefore, I pull out different "tools" to get the job done.

Such as, if the key is a minor key, can I play the "Blues Scale"? Yes. Can I play the pure "country scale" no. Why? Because that particular scale is used against major chords.

There's where I disagree. I believe anything is possible in music. Just because the books say something shouldn't be used in this type of music, doesn't mean that you can't do it. Your ears are the best way to find out if something fits or not, not what is written in a book. IMO too much adherence to music theory can inhibit expression and progression, particularly in the ability to improvise. We have a group of saxophonists at one of the jams I play. They all read music and been playing around 3-4 years. Not one of them can play without having the music I find that strange. I can play along with almost anything, yet they can't.

I play a lot at jams, mainly as part of house bands, and have to improvise to whatever the vocalist at the time sings. If I end up playing something new, I find my brain trying to think what I can play as a solo whilst the singer is singing the first couple of verses/choruses. Sometimes, I may experiment, quietly, whilst they are singing, then go for it when my time comes. I'm not necessarily talking just 12 bar blues here either. I do the same when playing harmonica. Seems to work for me.

Yes, I know that some people may say I was playing in this or that mode, but my point is that I don't know that or even care.

Still, as you say, do whatever comes best to you.

[hedzeppelin]

Hey, John...whatever works for you is cool. I don't believe in all that music theory stuff, either. I don't read music, I totally improvise. However, knowing scales and chord construction has helped me expand my playing.
And yes, anything is possible in music. You can play anything that you want. If the key of the song is in "A" and you want to play the solo in
D#, it's totally possible.
However, how good will it sound?

[johnreardon]

Originally Posted by hedzeppelin

Hey, John...whatever works for you is cool. I don't believe in all that music theory stuff, either. I don't read music, I totally improvise. However, knowing scales and chord construction has helped me expand my playing.
And yes, anything is possible in music. You can play anything that you want. If the key of the song is in "A" and you want to play the solo in
D#, it's totally possible.
However, how good will it sound?

Are you suggesting that's wrong


No wonder the rest of the band look at me with scrunched up faces

[hedzeppelin]

Well, you be the judge of that, John.

[LoKi]

Harmonic minor works in bluesy progressions, ala Yngwie, but if its all out blues, I would only touch on harmonic minor passages, not full blown scales, and then jump back into a blues pentatonic... just a suggestion!

I also love a good arpeggio with accidentals... you never know what might work on any particular jam session, but its cool to mess around.

[HHB]

try tagging the thirds of the chords as they go by within your dual scale approach, if the progression is dominant use the minor third to major third, very popular. Start licks on each chord with this approach and you'll be doing the cornerstone of the southern thing, it's in everything fom SRV to Zep and ACDC. The minor third over a dominant always sound cool, but resolve for those thirds and it'll open up the licks your searching for in my experience. I dont use a major third over a minor chord unless I'm trying to make babies cry

use C-C# over the A7 F-F# over the D7 and G-G# for the E7

hope this helps

here's what is going on w/ the thirds. take the blues scale, the major pentatonic, the mixolydian and dorian modes and overlap them in the same potiosion, it'll give you all the major and minor thirds save the G# and you get that by overlaping the harmonic minor, this "overlap" is a master hybryd scale posotion ala SRV, Jimi, Billy G et al

[hedzeppelin]

Hey, guys...thanks for the suggestions! I'll definitely have to try those.
I'm looking to vary what I already know, and this will definitely give me some
groundwork for experimentation!

[ptate]

I know sod-all about music really and tend to use nothing but the moveable modes; Lydian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Ionian, Phrygian, Aeolian and Locrian. They all seem to allow me to move around enough and throw in pentatonics reasonably easily as well.

Just need to know what a "key" is now...............

[Bobby_Lee]

[QUOTE=johnreardon;5559]Been playing for 45 years and never interested in analysing what I play, just do whatever comes into my fingers via my brain. If it's in key, then great, if not, it's jazz.

That gave me a laugh John

My niece is a jazz major (trumpet) at Purchase College and this is exactly what I have been telling her!

[ReverendJWblues]

Sometimes maybe if your looking for too much your naturall playing will suffer. Just gotta go with my guns. Ya just gotta feel the blues!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Toris93]

i use blues boxes to help me out when i run out of licks.. hehe.

here is a great lesson on them i found on youtube : YouTube - The 5 Essential Blues Boxes For Guitar

( OFCOURSE! i found this lesson AFTER using weeks figuring them out myself listening throught my entire freakin record collection....oh well was fun..sometimes lol )

[toneguy86]

Originally Posted by hedzeppelin

Ok, I'm looking for some new licks.
If I'm playing a blues ditty in a major key (I, IV, V progression), I currently use the blues scale (pentatonic minor) and the pentatonic major (I) and when the chord changes to the IV, I can stay on the blues scale, and or play the IV pentatonic (major). Same deal when the chord changes to the V.
For example, Key of A:
I - A blues & A pentatonic
IV - A blues & A pentatonic and D pentatonic
V - A blues & A pentatonic and E pentatonic

Are there any other scales (besides the major scale) that I can use in this type of progression?

Thanks!

Here is my take on the theory of it. If you played the major scales for A, D and E, the notes the you have in common between those scales make up a minor pentatonic. That's why you can play minor sounds against major chords. Technically you are really in 3 different keys and these are all the common tones. I don't want to confuse you though by talking about why this is. For your purposes, just know that this is the case.

If you try it, your ear will also find out soon enough that D and E minor pentatonics do not work (at least the minor ones).

Other things that work are to use those major sounds (because you can) mixed in with the minor. Hammering on the major third as Clapton did in the Crossroads solo is a good way to add spice. I also like the sound of the major pentatonic against the 4 chord (D in this case).

Also, there are other tones that do work. Dorian and Mixolydian modes have that flated 7th sound as well and can work in Blues. If you think like a jazz player and consider all the chord substitutions available, there are also other modes that work against certain chords.

I have some MP3s of lessons I did for my students that talk about soloing in the key of A using major and minor pentatonics, hammer ons, etc. If you want them, send me your e-mail address and I will e-mail them to you.

Mark

[toneguy86]

Originally Posted by hedzeppelin

Hey, John...whatever works for you is cool. I don't believe in all that music theory stuff, either. I don't read music, I totally improvise. However, knowing scales and chord construction has helped me expand my playing.
And yes, anything is possible in music. You can play anything that you want. If the key of the song is in "A" and you want to play the solo in
D#, it's totally possible.
However, how good will it sound?

...actually though, you can play a solo in and A blues using either a Bb mixolydian or Bb major pentatonic against the IV chord as you walk down from the V into the turnaround. It's called a tritone substitution.

I know this has been discussed in other threads, but there is a balance here between theory and heart. I describe it as an artist choosing his colors and textures. If you know what you are doing you have choices about things to toss in. This is true for blues. It becomes much more important as you get into songs with more complicated structures. A good ear can take you far, but there are limitations and if you don't want to look and sound like a moron when the song zigs and you zag, it is good to understand what is going on so you can make the turn in the right way. True that sometimes mistakes can be pure genius, but in my experience, sometimes it just sounds BAD.

Mark

[capitalalchemy]

A lot of other people said it. If you try and be too formulaic, your playing will dwindle. I really don't believe in rules for chord progressions, because there are so many chords. If everyone used the same rules, everyone would sound the same, and well, a lot of guitarists do sound the same. I usually find the root notes that I want to use, and then add a note at a time, without thinking about what chord I'm constructing. There are still a lot of chords out there that have yet to be classified.

You can sneak in a few notes of any mode with any style of music. Harmonic Minor works really well with blues scales, but if you're playing straight blues then you won't want to use too many notes from harmonic minor. Just a few. Or a touch of some jazz works nice. Kind of like Hot Tuna or Charlie Batey.

GuitArticles

[TheWellGoodShow]

if it falls into a maj, you can go with the pent maj, but if it falls in minor same deal.