Thumb position

[Tadas]

hi there,

there's one thing that's bothering me for a while about my playing. i mean the position of my thumb. i often see people positioning their thumb in 2 main ways - either holding it almost over the neck, or holding it in the middle of the neck. i also noticed that people who play very fast or some kind of metal stuff often hold their thumb in the middle of the neck, while the guys that i love (SRV, Page, Hendrix, Buddy Guy etc..) hold their thumb over the neck. is there a any "rule" for how you should position your thumb? i feel it comfortable to hold the thumb over the neck, sometimes even mute the low e string when i do some chords that require no open e. i don't feel this postion of the thumb to somehow ''stop'' me from playing fast when soloing.
some guys from my country's forums say that thumb over neck is an old technique which is bad, but they're all metal heads i don't believe them

how do you play?

[b-squared]

I do both.

It is a bad habit, but for some chording when playing blues I use my thumb to play the low E string.

It you're a beginner, your thumb should be in the middle of the neck.

Guys like Jimi Hendrix and SRV play with their thumb over the neck, but their hands are huge--they can get away with a lot.

BB

[Lampens]

I use it a alot, the thumb over neck. It's rock and roll you know?
I use it with fingerpicking too. Like when I chord the d7 chord with the F# on top. Don't know what it's called. You have to use it for Hendrix stuff. Use it on tush too for instance fretting the low g note with it. especially cause I already have one finger less due to the slide. Do what you feel comes naturally. There are no right or wrongs. Anyone who says it is can get slapped.

And when they complain about the slapping, tell 'em Lampens said it was ok to slap 'em for that. and that hey can come over to me for some more slapping.

[River]

Whatever keeps my wrist as straight as possible is "right" for me. Open chords and single note work, my thumb is usually sticking up or being used to mute - even A. Barre chords it's usually behind the neck. Not saying it's right, it's just what works for me.

[Tadas]

Originally Posted by Lampens

There are no right or wrongs. Anyone who says it is can get slapped.

And when they complain about the slapping, tell 'em Lampens said it was ok to slap 'em for that. and that hey can come over to me for some more slapping.

well i also have pretty big hands, so maybe thumb over just comes naturally for me.. and yes, of course i don't put my thumb over when i play barre chords thanks for your answers, i was beginning to get scared about my technique

[claricSTi]

Most guitar teachers will tell you it is horrible for technique. Thumb behind your middle finger they say. I normally ony pull it up there when I'm either using it or muting a string

[guitarbob123]

over the top or parallel with the the neck dpending what feel better. i've watched billy gibbons do exactly the same so i am assured that it is the correct way

[Tadas]

i know, i've taken guitar courses before so may teacher said i should hold my thumb in the middle of the neck, but... i've seen so many greats playing thumb over, it makes me think it just depends on your personal comfort

[River]

Originally Posted by Tadas

i know, i've taken guitar courses before so may teacher said i should hold my thumb in the middle of the neck, but... i've seen so many greats playing thumb over, it makes me think it just depends on your personal comfort

Yeah, it's pretty hard to play the notes when you can't play the notes.

[bigdaddy]

I think I have that same watch. Navihawk?

[River]

Originally Posted by bigdaddy

I think I have that same watch. Navihawk?

Citizen Eco-drive. I love it. Pretty pricey for a Citizen, but still very reasonable. Keeps near-perfect time, and has more features than I'll ever use.

[claricSTi]

All I buy is citizens, I have a promaster sst, black calibre, and skyhawk at. Very good watches for the money

[tintin]

I generally keep my thumb on the back of the neck, but some stuff ya gotta play with the thumb over the top.

[Quill]

I took classes from a great jazz player once who did session work in all styles. A complete master. His hands were on the small side, but he could work chord voicings that spanned seven frets (from the fifth fret and higher) into a performance by keeping his thumb really low on the neck. Some beautiful and very powerful sound is available to you, if you work on that sort of thing.

But at the same time, he played endless rock and country sessions and could bend with the best of them and had a breathtaking vibrato. He encouraged his students to be flexible in their thumb position. When bending, he'd get it up and anchored, not quite over but certainly at the top of the neck. This gives a lot of control and strength for bending. For melodic lines with lots of twists and turns, it's better for your articulation and for the health of your wrist to get that thumb down. Trying to play fast lines with your thumb over the top can hurt you over time, if you aren't built for it.

For my hands, if I'm trying to play some crazy line or a lot of chords I like it to be across from #2, because this stabilizes the fourth finger and takes some effort out of it. And somehow that position lets the first finger reach back more easily. But I keep working on that flexibility, on getting it where it needs to be for whatever I'm playing, and on being loose and easy with the left hand. Hope you find what's right for you!

[mattsblues]

Originally Posted by b-squared

I do both.

It is a bad habit, but for some chording when playing blues I use my thumb to play the low E string.

It you're a beginner, your thumb should be in the middle of the neck.

Guys like Jimi Hendrix and SRV play with their thumb over the neck, but their hands are huge--they can get away with a lot.

BB

+1

The "proper" technique is in the middle of the neck right in the middle of your fingers. I studied classical for a few years under a guy who had a masters in classic guitar comp and thats what I was forced to do, it pays big dividends later though IMO.

[mattsblues]

Sorry for repeating whats already been said, my internet or computer must of freaked out and didn't load all the replies.

[st.bede]

Originally Posted by Tadas

thumb over neck is an old technique which is bad, but they're all metal heads i don't believe them

how do you play?

true....I try to keep my thumb flat against the neck and, parallel with my middle finger but, it tends to move around a bit and, technique is about achieving goals and not an end to itself....

[st.bede]

Originally Posted by Quill

But at the same time, he played endless rock and country sessions and could bend with the best of them and had a breathtaking vibrato. He encouraged his students to be flexible in their thumb position. When bending, he'd get it up and anchored, not quite over but certainly at the top of the neck. This gives a lot of control and strength for bending. For melodic lines with lots of twists and turns, it's better for your articulation and for the health of your wrist to get that thumb down. Trying to play fast lines with your thumb over the top can hurt you over time, if you aren't built for it.

thank you very much....nice explanation and really important knowledge....I had not heard this before and, I will be working on this approach....

[River]

Correct thumb position, correct sneer:

[Quill]

River's post - aside from being extremely witty - illustrates that great, explosive vibrato that Rory and Buchanan and BB etc., Kossoff and Green and on and on, can execute so well - and I mean, execute. When you get that down, you can play one note for twelve bars and have people either jumping up and down and screaming for more or hiding under their tables ...
and on no other instrument can you get this sound.

The technical side of it seems to me to work like this: it is as though there is a straight line running from your elbow, through your wrist, and out past the fretboard. Your wrist rotates back and forth around that line. It's the centre of the movement, and is itself still. Your hand is loose on the neck, but you can put some pressure onto the note with the "cradle" of your thumb and index finger. The first, second or third finger holds the note, with different sounds from each. Here's the juicy part, that really takes practice: you locate the tip of your finger right on that centre line, if you want to do a fast, tight vibrato. Best with the first finger, like in the picture of Rory. But if you want to make it wider and crazier, you move that centre line down your finger, maybe put the first knuckle back from the tip in line with the centre, or even the second knuckle. The weight of your thumb and, across from that, the fourth finger, helps to balance the swing of the arc, and becomes more important the wider the vibrato you are going for - feels really great when you get it happening, which I think is part of the sound. The sheer joy of that movement - if you can do it at the right moment, which is one of those mysterious intuitive things - is down deep inside the sound you are making, and people feel that and dig it. And if you lose it, everyone knows! But listeners tend to appreciate it when you really go for it, and I think would rather hear us try and fall apart, than play it safe all night.

But the classical player's vibrato is worth looking at, too. Lots of great jazz players use it, and create a totally different mood that is deep and great in a different way. It's simpler to explain but just as hard to do: you hold the note with two or three fingers, locate the thumb behind the fingers with light support, and work the arm back and forth along the string. Like a violinist. The nice thing about this approach is that you can drop the pitch as well as raise it, which is just a beautiful and strange wonderful sound. Haunting.

And if everyone knows all this already, don't mind me; as you can see, I'm new here.

Any teacher who would try to talk you out of using one or the other of these techniques, if that is where your heart is taking you ... well, you have to find out what someone can teach you, and what they can't, and really it's up to us to sort out what we want to learn and how we want to play. Yes?

Oh and hey, St. Bede - thanks right back to you! I'm working on it, too!

[dennistruckdriver]

Thumb on the back of the neck, and no picking-hand fingers resting on the body of the guitar, either.

[River]

Now that, Quill, is a post and a half. You've obviously been where Rory is in that still - as have I. My problem is I only get to go there now and again. He went there with impunity and, as you point out, his listeners always went there with him.

This is a great example. Of course I'm only posting it so you can watch his thumb:

YouTube - Rory Gallagher - Bullfrog Blues

YouTube - Rory Gallagher - Bullfrog Blues

[Quill]

Rory's thumb - there is so much music in that thumb alone, I'll watch it all day!

And to the OP's question: you can see him move his hand around to suit whatever he needs to do. It's great to watch players like Rory, who can just play anything at all, whatever they want - even when they're on top of a bass amp! - and really reach people.

Look at that crowd - they're wild, but they seem to be really listening, too. Jumping all around him, but with total respect, giving him space to play. And who else can toss off a show-stoppin' rave-up like Rory? So powerful, but he's always light and easy with it - never heavy-handed.

Thanks, River!

[Quill]

One last word out of me. Or, not out of me - was reading through the article in the "99 ways to play better" thread, and I particularly liked #70. And - surprise! - guess who it was. Here it is:

70. Get Out

“You must perform for an audience, because the real crunch happens when you get in front of people. You may discover that some things you played in rehearsal don’t make any sense, because you fooled around too much with the frilly stuff and forgot the basic drive of the song. Playing live also teaches you deal with situations like dropping your pick or breaking a string, as well as forcing you to project. You have to direct your playing somewhere—unless you want to sit in a room like a painter who won’t show his paintings to anybody.” —Rory Gallagher

[Lampens]

Originally Posted by dennistruckdriver

Thumb on the back of the neck, and no picking-hand fingers resting on the body of the guitar, either.

I do rest my fingers while fingerpicking. But I noticed when I got my Taylor, a quality made acoustic that you can really hear a difference in tone and resonance if you rest your fingers or you forearm on the body. Definitely sounds better without touching the guitar at all. (haha, yeah I shouldn't touch the guitar at all to make a good sound. lol)
But playing that way just doesn't work for me. On an electric it doesn't make any difference I guess.

[Quill]

Interesting ... so many little coincidences lately; Lampens, just before I read your post, I was reading about the John Pearse armrest for acoustic guitars:

http://www.jpstrings.com/armrest.htm

[Lampens]

Hey, that thing might work. I can't play with my arm off the body and not resting. Try it. You really hear a difference on an acoustic.
Btw, didn't some old Gretch semi acoustics or hollowbodies have that same sort of thing? I think I remember seeing Scotty Moore or Chet Atkins with a guitar with some sort of padding on the upper bout of the guitar. The resonance thing probably holds true as well for semis and hollowbodies I guess.

[Lampens]

Here it is. It looks like he is shouting: "Wow dude, with this thing my guitar is resonating like a son of a bitch."


Or maybe something just bit him in the ass.

[monroe]

Originally Posted by b-squared

It you're a beginner, your thumb should be in the middle of the neck.

Agreed. Learn proper technique. Don't break the rules until you've mastered them. Using the thumb is legit in classical guitar as well as other styles, but as a beginner, try and keep it anchored in the back of the neck as much as possible. It's sort of akin to crossing hands on the piano: sometimes it's even written into the piece.