Improvisation - Page 2

lp_junkie · 07-18-2008, 04:08 PM

I had years of formal music education and theory, but when I am playing guitar it is 100% about feel and moment than grand theory and scales, I just do what I do and 99 times out of 100 it works, but the mistakes are glorious as well sometimes.

ES350 · 07-18-2008, 05:47 PM

"whoa....I should take another look at that...12 tone permutations, ehh....do you mean like: inversion, retrograde, retro. invers. ....stuff

I am trying to dreg up my 12 tone row knowledge.....haven't really used it but, maybe I should take another look....

are you familar with Berg?..."

Instead of thinking of it as serialism, this is just a way to play chromatically/inside/outside with some notion of organization and structure...without having to jump through the much larger hoops about chord subs/modes/scales and all that other hoopla tied to genre-specific cliches. As far as feeling being your guide, that only works if you have some embedded knowledge about where you're going or you stay in a very limited range of possibilities. CeDell Davis is cool, but so is Jack Wilkins...

st.bede · 07-19-2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ES350

"whoa....I should take another look at that...12 tone permutations, ehh....do you mean like: inversion, retrograde, retro. invers. ....stuff

I am trying to dreg up my 12 tone row knowledge.....haven't really used it but, maybe I should take another look....

are you familar with Berg?..."

Instead of thinking of it as serialism, this is just a way to play chromatically/inside/outside with some notion of organization and structure...without having to jump through the much larger hoops about chord subs/modes/scales and all that other hoopla tied to genre-specific cliches. As far as feeling being your guide, that only works if you have some embedded knowledge about where you're going or you stay in a very limited range of possibilities. CeDell Davis is cool, but so is Jack Wilkins...

with some notion of organization and structure...

what notions are those....can you give me a little knowledge? is this stuff in the scale,ect book perviously mentioned? What is that embedded knowledge? Does it have to do with the strenghts of different tones in regards to disconence and resolution?

thank you....I am always open to new ideas

axslinger · 07-20-2008, 03:35 AM

Your post got my attention because I've been working on Santana stuff lately. More for study than to specifically learn his songs.

I've been a pentatonic guy for years. Never took the time to learn other scales. I began taking lessons again a few months ago and that has helped a lot. One thing I learned recently is that you can't get the unique sound of Santana without learning the Major scale. Here's the reason:

When you are playing a pentatonic scale, you are leaving out 2 notes of the Major scale. In most cases, one or both of those "missing" notes are the ones that give Santana his sound, since he plays largely in Dorian. If you are playing A Dorian but just using the pentatonic scale, you're missing the B and the F# that give the A Dorian it's sound. Although they may be considered "passing tones", they really give a mode it's unique flavor.

mrkenny · 07-20-2008, 09:12 AM

I've heard the statement that "there are no wrong notes" and figured out on my own that it "is" where you resolve your statement. I have no formal training so all of what I figure out is, what I figure out. I found that, if I'm in the zone, I can turn an "off" note into a better one by quickly sliding into or away from that note to a better choice (kind of a unintentional slur) or place a complimentry note after that "off" note creating an opportunity to bring your phrase back in line. Is that at least a couple of correct ways to look at it? Thanks

axslinger · 07-20-2008, 12:30 PM

Personally, I don't agree with "there aren't any wrong notes". if you are playing a half step out of key, you're not going to slide your way out of that.

Also, if you are in the key of C major, any accidentals would be wrong notes. Yes, there are passing tones, but in most cases even passing tones are within the scale or key. Just my 2 cents.

st.bede · 07-23-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axslinger

Personally, I don't agree with "there aren't any wrong notes". if you are playing a half step out of key, you're not going to slide your way out of that.

Just my 2 cents.

depends on the harmony...dom chords are very forgiving and if you are playing your typical min. petatonic box you can easly slide it up a half step and then reslove back down a half step....especailly in a blues type progression....however if there is a subituted maj. 6th chord you have to take that into account...

now if you are talking about a maj. sounding progression that is a bit less felxable...also a minor type thing can be more felxiable..think about your harm. min and melodic min. scales....

ES350 · 07-24-2008, 12:04 PM

I was referring to the idea that you learn harmonic and melodic material and then you use that to play from an informed instinct...as opposed to trying to get through 'Round Midnight' on feel alone; I don't think that is going to work out very well unless you are a genius. Not many of those around...

The structure I was referring to is an internally consistent logic of linear organization based on intervals or permutations of scales that can be a basis for improvisational phrasing or composition. If you want to play outside, you can just play anything (which usually ends up being your own cliches) or you can play with form---which do you prefer? You can also do this with rhythm, harmonic motion, timbre, etc, just as it was used in later serialism ala Stockhausen/Boulez, Oliver Messiaen, or even Anthony Braxton.

st.bede · 07-25-2008, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ES350

I was referring to the idea that you learn harmonic and melodic material and then you use that to play from an informed instinct...as opposed to trying to get through 'Round Midnight' on feel alone; I don't think that is going to work out very well unless you are a genius. Not many of those around...

The structure I was referring to is an internally consistent logic of linear organization based on intervals or permutations of scales that can be a basis for improvisational phrasing or composition. If you want to play outside, you can just play anything (which usually ends up being your own cliches) or you can play with form---which do you prefer? You can also do this with rhythm, harmonic motion, timbre, etc, just as it was used in later serialism ala Stockhausen/Boulez, Oliver Messiaen, or even Anthony Braxton.

dude, you are driving me crazy (meaning that I want to know how to sit down and play the stuff you are talking about)....intervals or permutations of scales....LIKE? I am begging.....how do you approach that..maybe I just need to get that book...

tarddoggy · 07-25-2008, 11:30 AM

wow....IMHO,ya'll are thinking about it too much,get out there and JAM with Other people,man

ThrashPirate · 07-25-2008, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarddoggy

wow....IMHO,ya'll are thinking about it too much,get out there and JAM with Other people,man

I know I wish I could but I don't know anyone!

tarddoggy · 07-25-2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThrashPirate

I know I wish I could but I don't know anyone!

Start by goin' to as many open mic nights as you can....you'll meet all kinds of musicians

Big John · 07-25-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarddoggy

Start by goin' to as many open mic nights as you can....you'll meet all kinds of musicians

That's the truth. Most players that go to jams are there to unwind, erase the day, and socialize with other players. The majority of my circle of friends came from old jam nights, as well as the majority of my musical knowledge.

ES350 · 07-25-2008, 12:37 PM

It's a big world; there's room for all sorts of improvisation...I'm just trying to take it a few steps further than most guitarists do. There's a great book on improvisation by Derek Bailey if anyone cares to 'think about it'...

tarddoggy · 07-25-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ES350

It's a big world; there's room for all sorts of improvisation...I'm just trying to take it a few steps further than most guitarists do. There's a great book on improvisation by Derek Bailey if anyone cares to 'think about it'...

now,I didnt mean that as a stab in the side.I was just making a casual observance.Whatever works,man....books,jams with others,etc.

ES350 · 07-25-2008, 01:09 PM

thanks, friend...I didn't take it that way. I think the thing to do is try to have fun and create some joy with this whole thing...like I say, there's room for everybody.

tarddoggy · 07-25-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ES350

thanks, friend...I didn't take it that way. I think the thing to do is try to have fun and create some joy with this whole thing...like I say, there's room for everybody.

I like that...room for everybody.wow.we're startin' to sound like a bunch of musicians

st.bede · 07-28-2008, 11:59 PM

is everyone done throwing out their two cents? it was a great thread...

ES350 · 07-29-2008, 11:37 AM

Bede---Get the Slonimsky...

Big John · 07-29-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.bede

is everyone done throwing out their two cents? it was a great thread...

Don't get intimidated if you need to improvize over a number of chords. Remember, no matter how much anybody or any book messes with your brain, chords are placed together as the foundation for a melody. Period. Coming up with a cool melody (solo, improvisation, whatever) is all you're doing. The complex melodies will get you respect, but the simple and memorable melodies will make you popular.

So go with the flow, make mistakes, learn from them, and have fun. Above all else, this shit is suppossed to be fun.

dwagar · 07-29-2008, 01:14 PM

learn your theory, learn your scales. 'Improv' without knowing why you are playing what you are playing, is a lazy excuse for screwing up.

Back in the old days (60's, 70's) it was common, almost a requirement, for bands to play long jam songs. I'm talking about 15-20 minute songs. I wish it was the same today for the young guys coming up. The pressure of having to improv live does 2 things: makes you really improve your chops (dynamics and tone too), and makes you immune to embarrassment.

I remember times when we were doing a jam song, and it was bass solo time, sometimes I'd put my guitar down and go have a smoke. I'd leave him up there working his ass off waiting for me to come back in. That's hard, and a learning experience. Sometimes he'd be pissed, but sometimes he'd get into a zone that was just great.

st.bede · 07-31-2008, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwagar

Back in the old days (60's, 70's) it was common, almost a requirement, for bands to play long jam songs. I'm talking about 15-20 minute songs. I wish it was the same today for the young guys coming up. The pressure of having to improv live does 2 things: makes you really improve your chops (dynamics and tone too), and makes you immune to embarrassment.

once again great advice....you people rock

jonesy · 08-01-2008, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwagar

learn your theory, learn your scales. 'Improv' without knowing why you are playing what you are playing, is a lazy excuse for screwing up.

Back in the old days (60's, 70's) it was common, almost a requirement, for bands to play long jam songs. I'm talking about 15-20 minute songs. I wish it was the same today for the young guys coming up. The pressure of having to improv live does 2 things: makes you really improve your chops (dynamics and tone too), and makes you immune to embarrassment.

I remember times when we were doing a jam song, and it was bass solo time, sometimes I'd put my guitar down and go have a smoke. I'd leave him up there working his ass off waiting for me to come back in. That's hard, and a learning experience. Sometimes he'd be pissed, but sometimes he'd get into a zone that was just great.

Wow, I used to do the same things to drummers, walk off stage and leave them up there for a little "extended solo"... same response sometimes they would be a bit miffed, but it was a good way to break up the boredom of Club work, and I always got a smile out of it...hehe

For the record, out at a party or in a club my live version of "Red House" is always over 10 mins...

Nice Post Don,
Peace, jonesy

Stowburst · 08-01-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwagar

Back in the old days (60's, 70's) it was common, almost a requirement, for bands to play long jam songs. I'm talking about 15-20 minute songs. I wish it was the same today for the young guys coming up..

You know I just WISH I was around in the 60s..Every sunday we have practice for 4 hours and we just jam and thats how we write songs..

I have played lots of gigs and some of them have been sooo much fun but when we get together every sunday to practice we just JAM! 4hrs of anything goes.. I love it.

We do a lot of extended jams and change things around when we play live.. I can just look at the drummer and go in any direction.. any style of music.. just jam

07-18-2008, 04:08 PM	#31 (permalink)
lp_junkie Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 1,129 Thanks: 1 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Improvisation I had years of formal music education and theory, but when I am playing guitar it is 100% about feel and moment than grand theory and scales, I just do what I do and 99 times out of 100 it works, but the mistakes are glorious as well sometimes. __________________ LP_Junkie now on MySpace _____________________________________________ Les Pauls and Marshalls- Hammer of the Gods. EPI/MIJ Modders (Orville-Tokai-Burny-Greco-etc.)

07-18-2008, 05:47 PM	#32 (permalink)
ES350 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Improvisation "whoa....I should take another look at that...12 tone permutations, ehh....do you mean like: inversion, retrograde, retro. invers. ....stuff I am trying to dreg up my 12 tone row knowledge.....haven't really used it but, maybe I should take another look.... are you familar with Berg?..." Instead of thinking of it as serialism, this is just a way to play chromatically/inside/outside with some notion of organization and structure...without having to jump through the much larger hoops about chord subs/modes/scales and all that other hoopla tied to genre-specific cliches. As far as feeling being your guide, that only works if you have some embedded knowledge about where you're going or you stay in a very limited range of possibilities. CeDell Davis is cool, but so is Jack Wilkins...

07-20-2008, 03:35 AM	#34 (permalink)
axslinger Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 323 Thanks: 4 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Re: Improvisation Your post got my attention because I've been working on Santana stuff lately. More for study than to specifically learn his songs. I've been a pentatonic guy for years. Never took the time to learn other scales. I began taking lessons again a few months ago and that has helped a lot. One thing I learned recently is that you can't get the unique sound of Santana without learning the Major scale. Here's the reason: When you are playing a pentatonic scale, you are leaving out 2 notes of the Major scale. In most cases, one or both of those "missing" notes are the ones that give Santana his sound, since he plays largely in Dorian. If you are playing A Dorian but just using the pentatonic scale, you're missing the B and the F# that give the A Dorian it's sound. Although they may be considered "passing tones", they really give a mode it's unique flavor.

07-20-2008, 09:12 AM	#35 (permalink)
mrkenny Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Frederick, Maryland Posts: 291 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Improvisation I've heard the statement that "there are no wrong notes" and figured out on my own that it "is" where you resolve your statement. I have no formal training so all of what I figure out is, what I figure out. I found that, if I'm in the zone, I can turn an "off" note into a better one by quickly sliding into or away from that note to a better choice (kind of a unintentional slur) or place a complimentry note after that "off" note creating an opportunity to bring your phrase back in line. Is that at least a couple of correct ways to look at it? Thanks __________________ www.kennyandthecobras.com http://www.myspace.com/mcleibymorganfield

07-20-2008, 12:30 PM	#36 (permalink)
axslinger Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 323 Thanks: 4 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Re: Improvisation Personally, I don't agree with "there aren't any wrong notes". if you are playing a half step out of key, you're not going to slide your way out of that. Also, if you are in the key of C major, any accidentals would be wrong notes. Yes, there are passing tones, but in most cases even passing tones are within the scale or key. Just my 2 cents.

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07-24-2008, 12:04 PM	#38 (permalink)
ES350 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Improvisation I was referring to the idea that you learn harmonic and melodic material and then you use that to play from an informed instinct...as opposed to trying to get through 'Round Midnight' on feel alone; I don't think that is going to work out very well unless you are a genius. Not many of those around... The structure I was referring to is an internally consistent logic of linear organization based on intervals or permutations of scales that can be a basis for improvisational phrasing or composition. If you want to play outside, you can just play anything (which usually ends up being your own cliches) or you can play with form---which do you prefer? You can also do this with rhythm, harmonic motion, timbre, etc, just as it was used in later serialism ala Stockhausen/Boulez, Oliver Messiaen, or even Anthony Braxton.

07-25-2008, 11:30 AM	#40 (permalink)
tarddoggy V.I.P. Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ohio Posts: 1,983 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Improvisation wow....IMHO,ya'll are thinking about it too much,get out there and JAM with Other people,man __________________ '92 Les Paul Studio '96 Les Paul Studio '05 Les Paul Deluxe '07 Voodoo LP Special Traynor YVC-20(stock) Crate Vintage Club 20 WB Pickups:Habeneros,Firewaters,67-07 VTPs,67-07 VTP Hotttsss,Greeny 67's

07-25-2008, 12:37 PM	#44 (permalink)
ES350 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Improvisation It's a big world; there's room for all sorts of improvisation...I'm just trying to take it a few steps further than most guitarists do. There's a great book on improvisation by Derek Bailey if anyone cares to 'think about it'...

07-25-2008, 01:09 PM	#46 (permalink)
ES350 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Improvisation thanks, friend...I didn't take it that way. I think the thing to do is try to have fun and create some joy with this whole thing...like I say, there's room for everybody.

07-28-2008, 11:59 PM	#48 (permalink)
st.bede V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Fresno Ca Posts: 1,540 Thanks: 16 Thanked 8 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Improvisation is everyone done throwing out their two cents? it was a great thread... __________________ Peace: is not the lack of dischord but an active process that transforms the present dischord into harmony through reverence "to criticize without vision is to be complicitious with dominance" Carolyn Casey "Go easy and, if you can't go easy, go as easy as you can" Jennifer Stone.... (from KPFA Cover to Cover) for me ORANGE IS THE CHANGE thank you 5F6-A

07-29-2008, 11:37 AM	#49 (permalink)
ES350 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Improvisation Bede---Get the Slonimsky...

07-29-2008, 01:14 PM	#51 (permalink)
dwagar V.I.P. Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 2,588 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Improvisation learn your theory, learn your scales. 'Improv' without knowing why you are playing what you are playing, is a lazy excuse for screwing up. Back in the old days (60's, 70's) it was common, almost a requirement, for bands to play long jam songs. I'm talking about 15-20 minute songs. I wish it was the same today for the young guys coming up. The pressure of having to improv live does 2 things: makes you really improve your chops (dynamics and tone too), and makes you immune to embarrassment. I remember times when we were doing a jam song, and it was bass solo time, sometimes I'd put my guitar down and go have a smoke. I'd leave him up there working his ass off waiting for me to come back in. That's hard, and a learning experience. Sometimes he'd be pissed, but sometimes he'd get into a zone that was just great. __________________ ------------ Don my favorite toys (one wants to be a '59, the other is a '59):