Truss rod

[raisinbrain]

Hi,

I hope someone can help me. When I start to tighten the truss rod on my 2006 vintage mahogany gibson les paul, the high e begins to fret out at the 5th fret well before the action gets to the acceptable range. I had the same problem on a les paul gothic that I owned several years ago but I thought it was just that guitar. This is too identical an issue to be coincidence.

I have been adjusting fenders for many years with much success. Please don't tell me that a les paul can't be made to play as well as a strat. From my understanding of guitar necks, the action should be able to go much lower on the les paul since it has a flatter neck radius.

Anyone else out there run in to this problem?

-Jef

[155]

can you lower the bridge then do the t rod adjustment?

[dwagar]

have you checked the nut height? saddle height?

you're right, you should be able to set it dead flat, down to no relief, if you wanted to. I prefer about .010 myself.

[scozz]

Originally Posted by raisinbrain

Hi,

I hope someone can help me. When I start to tighten the truss rod on my 2006 vintage mahogany gibson les paul, the high e begins to fret out at the 5th fret well before the action gets to the acceptable range. I had the same problem on a les paul gothic that I owned several years ago but I thought it was just that guitar. This is too identical an issue to be coincidence.

I have been adjusting fenders for many years with much success. Please don't tell me that a les paul can't be made to play as well as a strat. From my understanding of guitar necks, the action should be able to go much lower on the les paul since it has a flatter neck radius.

Anyone else out there run in to this problem?

-Jef

Welcome brain. I notice you didn't mention the bridge in your post. You should be adjusting the bridge for the desired action, and the trussrod for fine tuning that action, and to set the relief. Les Paul are quite capable of very low action when adjusted properly, unless there is some other problem. Maybe your neck needs a fret leveling. It is not uncommon for VMs to have fret issues, maybe a high fret is the problem. If I were you I would start from scratch. Lower the bridge as low as it will go with a little buzz. Then raise it in small increments to remove most of the buzz. This should get the strings to a good playing height. Next, adjust the TR, (also in very small increments, 1/8 of a turn at a time) to fine tune the action and set the relief. Proper relief would be somewhere between .005 to .015. Put a capo on the first fret, now with your finger fret the last fret, and measure the distance from the bottom of the low E string to the top of the fret wire at the 7th fret. This should be between .005 and .015. Feeler gauges are used for proper measurments. If you don't have a way to measure, just leave a small gap that maybe a playing card could slide under. Hopefully this will solve the problem, if not, take it to a pro for a set up.

[Liam]

Just to add to all the good stuff from Scozz:

If it buzzes around frets 3 to 7, slacken the truss rod and lower the bridge. If it buzzes above the 12th fret, tighten the truss rod and raise the bridge.

Play around until you've got it as good as you can, you should be able to get down to below 1 mm (0.040") action on the 12th fret top e string, a little higher across the rest. If you can't, check for high frets, loose frets, or something else rattling.

Make sure you tune everything to pitch between adjustments. I can normally get my Les Pauls a lot lower than my Fenders. I would guess that your neck is set a little too straight.

[ArchEtech]

+1 on the last two frets. Im my experience Les Pauls play better without much bow in the neck. Follow the advice it will get you there.

[shotgunlew]

I couldent have said it better myself!

[HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by raisinbrain

Hi,

I hope someone can help me. When I start to tighten the truss rod on my 2006 vintage mahogany gibson les paul, the high e begins to fret out at the 5th fret well before the action gets to the acceptable range. I had the same problem on a les paul gothic that I owned several years ago but I thought it was just that guitar. This is too identical an issue to be coincidence.

I have been adjusting fenders for many years with much success. Please don't tell me that a les paul can't be made to play as well as a strat. From my understanding of guitar necks, the action should be able to go much lower on the les paul since it has a flatter neck radius.

Anyone else out there run in to this problem?

-Jef

Hi Jef,

This really aggravates me.

Let me explain something to everyone looking at this thread.

A truss rod " IS NOT " for setting your action !

[HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by raisinbrain

Hi,

I hope someone can help me. When I start to tighten the truss rod on my 2006 vintage mahogany gibson les paul, the high e begins to fret out at the 5th fret well before the action gets to the acceptable range. I had the same problem on a les paul gothic that I owned several years ago but I thought it was just that guitar. This is too identical an issue to be coincidence.

I have been adjusting fenders for many years with much success. Please don't tell me that a les paul can't be made to play as well as a strat. From my understanding of guitar necks, the action should be able to go much lower on the les paul since it has a flatter neck radius.

Anyone else out there run in to this problem?
-Jef

Hi Jef,
Please don't take this personally as
Most DO NOT understand what a truss rod is for.

This really aggravates me.

Let me explain something to everyone looking at this thread.

A truss rod " IS NOT " for setting your action !
Other than to change it back to the correct specs after
changing to a different gauge of strings .

A truss rod is for keeping the correct bow in your neck .
There by letting you set your intonation correctly .

You " NEVER " adjust a truss rod to your own specifications for
action . The incorrect adjustment of a truss rod will kill your intonation
and could even pop a fingerboard off or break the truss rod.

Action is a combination of settings after the truss rod is set correctly.
Properly set up nut. Properly set up bridge . If you have problems
after that . you may need your frets leveled etc..

GREG
Help me Brother for they No Not what they do !

[Liam]

Let me explain something to everyone looking at this thread.

A truss rod " IS NOT " for setting your action !
Other than to change it back to the correct specs after
changing to a different gauge of strings .

OK, no it's not, but you often have to alter the truss rod when you change the action. It doesn't have a correct spec, it varies depending on what you are doing with the guitar. (Please, don't let me fall out with the Holy Grail as he is one of my heroes!)

The truss rod is for setting neck relief. The neck should not be straight, but should form a graceful "bow". If you like a low action the bow should be about 0.005-0.010" (IME) between first and 12th frets. If you like a high action you need to increase the neck relief by slackening the truss rod. The idea is that it compensates for the arc of the string vibration as you move up and down the fretboard.

You " NEVER " adjust a truss rod to your own specifications for
action . The incorrect adjustment of a truss rod will kill your intonation
and could even pop a fingerboard off or break the truss rod.

Also true, but try not to be afraid of it. Measure the neck bow every time you make a change [after returning the tuning to correct pitch]. NEVER turn the nut more than one flat at a time, and if it starts feeling really tight STOP. The neck should never be straight or "back-bowed". If in doubt, find an experienced tech.

I used to avoid adjusting the truss rod, but nowadays it's part and parcel of getting a decent setup. Thre are some good web resources for "typical" setup measurements, but I find fine tuning between truss rod and bridge heights optimises things. Shall I do "correct cutting of the nut" next.

(Hal, if I've said anything wrong in all this, reprimand me! I just find there's too much black magic around things like truss rod adjustment...)

[HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by Liam

OK,

(Hal, if I've said anything wrong in all this, reprimand me! I just find there's too much black magic around things like truss rod adjustment...)

Liam
You're great and I like you too, but I've been doing set ups for ever.
Please believe me, what I said above is 100% true.

Someones told you the wrong info.

If you lower your action , the guitar will sound flat because the strings loosen
and the bow in the neck will be relaxed until you tune back up to concert.
Then the guitar bow spec returns. If it was set properly in the first place.

It's your right to disagree.
No ill will Brother !

[Mike60]

This is a public service announcement...


Will you guys PLEASE listen to HG.

[shotgunlew]

Everything in there is 100% right ( i poped a fretboard off a cheap jackson learning how to do it TRUST ME )

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

Liam
You're great and I like you too, but I've been doing set ups for ever.
Please believe me, what I said above is 100% true.

Someones told you the wrong info.

If you lower your action , the guitar will sound flat because the strings loosen
and the bow in the neck will be relaxed until you tune back up to concert.
Then the guitar bow spec returns. If it was set properly in the first place.

It's your right to disagree.
No I'll will Brother !

[Roman Rist]

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

Hi Jef,
Please don't take this personally as
Most DO NOT understand what a truss rod is for.

This really aggravates me.

Let me explain something to everyone looking at this thread.

A truss rod " IS NOT " for setting your action !
Other than to change it back to the correct specs after
changing to a different gauge of strings .

A truss rod is for keeping the correct bow in your neck .
There by letting you set your intonation correctly .

You " NEVER " adjust a truss rod to your own specifications for
action . The incorrect adjustment of a truss rod will kill your intonation
and could even pop a fingerboard off or break the truss rod.

Action is a combination of settings after the truss rod is set correctly.
Properly set up nut. Properly set up bridge . If you have problems
after that . you may need your frets leveled etc..

GREG
Help me Brother for they No Not what they do !

How about Roman, will he do?

People have the wrong damn idea about the purpose of a truss rod.

When some of us were kids, you used to see a sticker on el cheapo guitars that said; " Steel Reinforced Neck"

Some used "non-adjustable" rods.

The purpose still holds true " Steel Reinforced Neck"

The neck needs to be reinforced to compensate for the pull of the strings

The reason they are adjustable is to compensate for changes in the neck and STRING gauges.

The wood by itself has not enough strength to compensate for the tension of the strings.

If you don't believe me go from a set of .09s to 13s on an Ibanez JEM and see what happens!

action is determined by nut height and bridge height. assuming you have a straight neck

[HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by RFR

How about Roman, will he do?

People have the wrong damn idea about the purpose of a truss rod.

When some of us were kids, you used to see a sticker on el cheapo guitars that said; " Steel Reinforced Neck"

Some used "non-adjustable" rods.

The purpose still holds true " Steel Reinforced Neck"

The neck needs to be reinforced to compensate for the pull of the strings

The reason they are adjustable is to compensate for changes in the neck and STRING gauges.

The wood by itself has not enough strength to compensate for the tension of the strings.

If you don't believe me go from a set of .09s to 13s on an Ibanez JEM and see what happens!

action is determined by nut height and bridge height. assuming you have a straight neck

Roman ~
I'm Honored !

[Roman Rist]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFR View Post
How about Roman, will he do?

People have the wrong damn idea about the purpose of a truss rod.

When some of us were kids, you used to see a sticker on el cheapo guitars that said; " Steel Reinforced Neck"

Some used "non-adjustable" rods.

The purpose still holds true " Steel Reinforced Neck"

The neck needs to be reinforced to compensate for the pull of the strings

The reason they are adjustable is to compensate for changes in the neck and STRING gauges.

The wood by itself has not enough strength to compensate for the tension of the strings.

If you don't believe me go from a set of .09s to 13s on an Ibanez JEM and see what happens!

action is determined by nut height and bridge height. assuming you have a straight neck

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

Roman ~
I'm Honored !

Thank you. Do you think we set them straight?

[HolyGrail]

Originally Posted by RFR

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFR View Post
How about Roman, will he do?

People have the wrong damn idea about the purpose of a truss rod.

When some of us were kids, you used to see a sticker on el cheapo guitars that said; " Steel Reinforced Neck"

Some used "non-adjustable" rods.

The purpose still holds true " Steel Reinforced Neck"

The neck needs to be reinforced to compensate for the pull of the strings

The reason they are adjustable is to compensate for changes in the neck and STRING gauges.

The wood by itself has not enough strength to compensate for the tension of the strings.

If you don't believe me go from a set of .09s to 13s on an Ibanez JEM and see what happens!

action is determined by nut height and bridge height. assuming you have a straight neck



Thank you. Do you think we set them straight?

If they don't get it between what you and I wrote, then
they never will.

[dwagar]

Originally Posted by RFR

When some of us were kids, you used to see a sticker on el cheapo guitars that said; " Steel Reinforced Neck"

holy crap, I do remember that. Little chrome stickers, woohoo steel reinforced!

[Liam]

Originally Posted by HolyGrail

Someones told you the wrong info.

Ah shite, I see what's happened here. I wasn't saying use the truss rod to adjust the action. I was saying use the position of the fret buzzes at a low action to determine how close to optimum the neck relief is. If it buzzes low down, the neck is too straight or backbowed; if it buzzes high up there is too much bow in the neck. Because of this I normally combine setting the truss rod with setting the action at the bridge. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by RFR

action is determined by nut height and bridge height. assuming you have a straight neck

I don't think the neck should be straight. I'm sticking with 0.005" to 0.015" neck relief and fine tune within that to get the least buzzes when the action is set low at the bridge. If you set the neck straight then low actions will always buzz somewhere between frets 3 and 7.

The trick of combining truss rod and bridge adjustments to get rid of buzzes was first shown to me by a well respected luthier when we were working together at Gibson Artist Relations in London. I've been using it ever since, I guess I'd kind of assumed everyone did.

Originally Posted by RFR

Thank you. Do you think we set them straight?

Like I said, whilst guitar necks work OK when they're set straight, they work better with a little neck relief. That's why there's a nut on the end of the truss rod. If you adjust this nut you will then need to adjust the action. I have been making small adjustments to truss rods for over 20 years. I have never had a fingerboard fall off. You DO need to be sensible with this though.

No disrespect to RFR or HG, but well set neck relief DOES allow you to get a much better setup.

[loneguitar]

Holy Grail, y'all said it, the only time to adjust the truss rod is for bow period....
The action and intonation are determined by the bridge and saddles, then check the nut. This is fact, thanks HG for bringing up this very important issue.

[Liam]

Jeez this place is like a backslappers ball sometimes.

Set your necks straight, better that than learn anything...

[raisinbrain]

Okay, maybe I should have been more clear about my setup technique. With the truss rod completely loosened off, I start by lowering the bridge until the strings start to buzz on the higher frets. Then in small increments over several hours, I tighten the truss rod until I start to get buzzing on the lower frets.

The problem I am having is that the action at the higher frets is still very high when the high e string frets out during bends from frets 5-7. I can see that there is much bow in the neck, but continuing to tighten the truss (while overall helping playability on the rest of the fretboard) makes the choking problem at the 5-7 frets on the high e even worse. The part I can't figure is that a les paul gothic that I used to own did the exact same thing.

I would like to thank you all for your input. I really appreciate the fact that nobody told me to cave and just take it in to the shop.

-Jef

[dwagar]

I think you're kind of working against yourself here. Set the truss rod to your desired relief. With the strings tuned to pitch, give it awhile, I like a day, to settle. Check it and adjust as necessary.

While some guys like a Les Paul with almost a dead flat neck (say .002 or .003), I prefer around .010 relief. It's a matter of taste really.

Then start going after your action. I used to set my LPs very light, but I've started raising them higher as IMO I've found more tone with some relief and slightly higher action. YMMV.

If you can't get the action as low as you want, check all the usual suspects: nut, saddles, bridge radius, frets.

[ArchEtech]

Most books on the subject I read are somewhere between both "views" but lean closer to HolyGrail.

The bow of the neck on every guitar is supposed to be set within a "range" so that when you pinch the first fret, and the second fret past the body (depends on the guitar_, you get a level string accross the whole fret board to measure. The fact that the string is high or low over the frets isn't a function of the truss rod. The truss rod is suppose to keep the neck straight when doing the above pinch technique. That's setting the neck. After this you can adjust string height for your desired action vs. buzzing and what not. The point is the neck is supposed to have a slight bow, and have level strings when using the above test.

Now that said, instead of doing a fret job, you can lessen and increas bow a TINY bit to offset other problems, mean like as was said if you get a little buzzing midd and low you can make very TINY adjustments to rid the buzzing; however this DOES throw off your intonation or could. If a 1/8 turn solves your buzzing, you'd probably be fine. If you had to turn it a full 1/2 turn, you'd probably effect your intonation. If you get to far off the level strings with truss rod compensation for other poor set up issues, your intonation will suffer. Sometime it isn't a big deal sometime its is. But like I said anything more than a TINY amount that the trussrod is set out of "true" will crap out your intonation. I'm not an expert, but I mess with my own guitars all the time, and use book to assist me. I have great action on all my guitars, with a TINY TINY amount of buzzing uless I get a fret dressing. I'd rather have a little buzzing and low action that throw off my intonation. My ears can't take bad intonation.

I think HG point was the truss rod is perceived to set action height which it does NOT do. HG is also right that the truss rod is suppose to be a constant on every guitar to acheive proper intonation. But the other guy is also right that you can compensate for buzzing with a little truss rod adjustment - I have done this to improve buzzing on the high frets without effecting intonation. But again we are talking tiny tiny turns of the truss rod. I have also found that not every guitar like a "perfect" bow to get intonation either - every guitar is different.

Did I mention make TINY adjustment. Did I mention if you have to turn the truss rod more than a half a turn for anything, you probably have other problems unless the the first jackass that had the guitar 10 years ago and left it in the case ever since cranked on it and lucky for you didn't break it. I've never had to turn a truss rod on an guitar more than half a turn to get the bow set properly....

[Liam]

I have never had intonation problems due to neck bow. Period.

With the truss rod completely loosened off, I start by lowering the bridge until the strings start to buzz on the higher frets.

Oh no, don't do that, you're asking for trouble if you loosen it completely. Move 1/8 to 1/6 of a turn, reset tuning, measure relief. If the neck is getting straight, stop. If the relief is more than 0.015" stop. Slackening the thing off completely without checking how much bow you're getting is a bad idea.

Liam

[single cut 54]

If you measure your action height and then tighten the truss rod ,you'll find that your action height is lower and maybe you'll need to raise the bridge to compensate. In other words,you don't use truss rod adjustment to
set the action but truss rod adjustment ''alters and effects'' the action and you need to ''juggle'' between rod adjustment and bridge height when setting
up. I thought this was what Liam meant in his post. This is not ''rocket science'' but I believe it's very difficult to explain completely in words and is probably best done by demonstration.

[scozz]

Originally Posted by single cut 54

If you measure you action height and then tighten the truss rod ,you'll find that your action height is lower and maybe you'll need to raise the bridge to compensate. In other words,you don't use truss rod adjustment to
set the action but truss rod adjustment ''alters and effects'' the action and you need to ''juggle'' between rod adjustment and bridge height when setting
up. I thought this was what Liam meant in his post. This is not ''rocket science'' but I believe it's very difficult to explain completely in words and is probably best done by demonstration.

Ditto.

[Liam]

you need to ''juggle'' between rod adjustment and bridge height when setting up. I thought this was what Liam meant in his post.

Yup, spot on. I thought this was what scozz meant as well. Clearly I thought right. I'm not sure what I'm saying is entirely at odds with what HG and RFR are saying.

This is not ''rocket science'' but I believe it's very difficult to explain completely in words

I always tell my students that if they wish to understand something, "Draw a f&%*ing diagram". With this one it helps to realise that the extents of a strings vibration form an arc. You'll soon see why straight necks aren't ideal.

Interested by the poll results, keep em coming.

[Roman Rist]

Originally Posted by raisinbrain

Okay, maybe I should have been more clear about my setup technique. With the truss rod completely loosened off, I start by lowering the bridge until the strings start to buzz on the higher frets. Then in small increments over several hours, I tighten the truss rod until I start to get buzzing on the lower frets.

The problem I am having is that the action at the higher frets is still very high when the high e string frets out during bends from frets 5-7. I can see that there is much bow in the neck, but continuing to tighten the truss (while overall helping playability on the rest of the fretboard) makes the choking problem at the 5-7 frets on the high e even worse. The part I can't figure is that a les paul gothic that I used to own did the exact same thing.

I would like to thank you all for your input. I really appreciate the fact that nobody told me to cave and just take it in to the shop.

-Jef

Jef,
You need fret work

I had a client string his LP up with Zaak Wylde signature stings .10 to .60

It tweeked his neck. When the relief was good on the bass side, the treble side went into a reverse bow and buzzed on the unwound strings.

We had to pull the frets and plane the fingerboard. After that he never used that extreme of a gauge again!

A GOOD FRET DRESS MAY SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM

Roman

[Roman Rist]

It is very hard to explain at a keyboard, what I could demonstrate to someone in the shop in one minute.
We are missing the physical mass here.

I would like to clarify some things. (Sorry if this is long)

Straight is a relative term. I am not a believer in a "measured" straight.

The amount of relief needed varies from player to player depending on attack.
One player may need more than another, some need less.


There are four factors in playability which are very intertwined.

Nut height, relief, action height at the bridge, AND, overall condition of the fingerboard and frets. They all work with and against each other sometimes

Nut Height.

This pretty much affects the string height at the 1st fret only. Once you fret the guitar the nut is out of the picture and the fret is in play.

Relief

This is the amount of bow the neck has.


Action height at the bridge.

this determines the OVERALL height of the stings off of the fretboard.


The neck adjustment is kind of the bridge between the two points (nut and bridge)

It ties it all together and is dependent on the condition of the fingerboard and frets


Truss rods (especially gibson) are a CRUDE but effective design.

I had a player bring me a LP strung up with Zaak Wylde signature strings

10 to .60 YIKES!

His neck had developed a bow that could NOT be fixed by truss rod adjustment.

When the relief was just right on the bass side, the treble side now went into a reverse bow.

The only thing to do was to pull the frets plane the board and refret.

And make him swear to never use those strings again


Here are some basics

If the guitar buzzes at the 1st fret, but is ok once past the 1st fret;
the nut is too low

If the guitar buzzes from the 1st to 5th fret;
Chances are you have too little relief and the truss rod needs to be loosened

If your action is TOO high in the middle of the neck;
The truss rod is TOO loose.

Often times guys will try to "fix", with a truss rod, symptoms that can only be fixed by fret work.

I hope this made sense and was not too damn long
Roman