seeing that wood now has no effect on tone...

[SJJMcGhee]

Originally Posted by rjshare

but your 100 dollar copy will still have been put together by small children in asia.

So will your Gretsch, they're made by Peerless i believe, in Korea.

Peerless make damn fine guitars BTW, they're Gretsches with their own names on them are real fine guitars.

[BillB1960]

Originally Posted by MeKevin

I find that wood is really good for my tone, it balances the guitar nicely and lets me concetrate on playing. Usually I'm pretty excited for the first set, sometimes I need a fluffer for the second though.

[MeKevin]

Wow man, just laughed out loud. Doesn't happen to me very often. I think your avatar really made it super funny. Got the "stay thirsty friends" look going on.

[Jaypee319]

[MeKevin]

^ doesn't like talking about this stuff.

[The Refugee]

Originally Posted by MeKevin

^ doesn't like talking about this stuff.

Bastard and his pedobear avatar pic.

[GERRYGTR62]

geez, why not invest in a USA Reverend made out of Lucite?? whoa, too mush for your budget, errr ,never mind!!

[strat les sg]

Originally Posted by FennRx

rather than say "dog" i just say different. My R8 and R9, when I got them, had the same pickups, same pots and caps. I had them set up by the same guy to the specs. Pickup heights were the same. And yet the R8 had a slightly darker sound with more low end when played through the same amp with the same settings using the same cables and same speaker.

Statistically significant? maybe not. But my experience for the 17 years i've been playing. ymmv

there are tolerances in alot of other parts like caps ,pups etc., that can affect the tone overall if theyre not "exactly" alike ,just way too many variables.

[joshatatlasstands]

I'll go with a wooden guitar every time. cinder block and styrofoam just don't suit my style.

[GitFiddle]

Originally Posted by joshatatlasstands

I'll go with a wooden guitar every time. cinder block and styrofoam just don't suit my style.

Yeah, its always a pain getting the strap-locks secure in cinder blocks.

[pietro]

I don't think it's the wood which makes the tone of the guitar,
it's actually the MOP inlay on the headstock, if it says 'G*BSON', it has tone!

[Lowdown]

Pigs arse!
Plastic is the future...brings out the man-beast in you.

[Funkwire]

It all depends. If you play with full distortion, then, yeah...doesn't really what you're playing. The amp and/or dirt pedal is what's forming your sound. On the other hand, I had a MIK Squier Strat with a plywood body that sounded great clean.

Wood doesn't make a HUGE difference, I'll admit. But there are differences between certain woods and materials. I always try out my electrics unplugged first. If they don't resonate nicely, I usually don't even try them plugged in. If they do, I'm pretty confident they're going to sound good and feel good in my hands. Just my .02

[DADGAD]

Originally Posted by Lowdown

Pigs arse!
Plastic is the future...brings out the man-beast in you.

I didn't know Russell Brand liked guns!

[Gibsonrocknroll]

If wood has no effect on tone then they should make them out of plywood to save us alot of money.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by Gibsonrocknroll

If wood has no effect on tone then they should make them out of plywood to save us alot of money.

Why do that? They're in business to make money. So long as they keep consumers thinking things like "ebony is better than richlite" and use that to get an extra $300 for having spent $35 more, they're happy.

This is exactly why they're in business -- to make as much oney as the market will allow -- and exactly why these sorts of discussions are sometimes frustrating for me, as a consumer. Of course I don't want a plywood guitar, for æsthetic reasons, but prices remain high because people insist on shopping according to fatuous "differences" they read about online and often haven't even tested for themselves. Make it look decent and sound good, and spare me the $500 difference that cannot even be heard by the experts if they're wearing a blindfold.

[ant_riv]

Well I'm probably too old to be able to learn this for myself, but some of you will be around and able to find out in about 40-50 years.

I expect that will be when the world's supply of "organic tone-wood" is depleted to the point where ALL guitars will be made out of synthetic materials. If there is still a demand for guitars, all of our solid-wood guitars might be as collectible as '50s LPs are now!

Me? I'm not sure WHAT proportions of wood, caps, pots, etc I'm hearing, but my Norlin LPs and my '05 R8 sound good enough for me and my tinnitus-affected ears to be happy!

As always, this is just IMO and YMMV!

[Grantoid]

All I'm sure of is that we are not particularly good (especially those of us who deem ourselves "experts") at determining the actual causes of sonic phenomena reliably, as formal tests have shown over and over (ie. the low-z and speaker cable abx studies, in which ZERO experts to date have reliably proven they can detect differences).

I will say that I hope I'm as objective as I can be, and that physics seems to dictate that different materials and variations of materials will affect the decay, harmonic reinforcement and damping of the string and that will be detected by a pickup.
Obviously, super hot mud-buckers into a fuzz and goosed-preamp will lessen the perceived impact of the wood, but there are many instances where the wood will have more impact in the amplified response. IMO.

Wood happens to be convenient for construction, and other materials may well be able to mimic the responses due to density, flexibility, weight etc. But who cares if the instrument isn't practical?
Also, if it doesn't, how do we get deadspots?
I just find that so often, I haven't particularly liked a guitar I've been trying out, and it has turned out to be one of three woods. That said, I like some fiberboard danelectros and one amazing plywood guitar, so the snobbery idea seems to me to be sort of a trendy conspiracy, not such a reliable source of hard info in general.
So for me, the wood's cost is irrelevant, but the effect of it's intrinsic qualities is real when the hardware, design and intended tone are suitable.

[Mindfrigg]

When you look at the components of an electric guitar in terms of tolerance and specs, wood is the only component,( all other things being equal) that has such a wide variance in properties. Hardware, and electronics are VERY consistent in manufacture. The strings are the only other part of the equation that might vary that much from one guitar (same year, hardware, electronics, finish) to another.
Anyone dispute that?

[SteveGangi]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

Why do that? They're in business to make money. So long as they keep consumers thinking things like "ebony is better than richlite" and use that to get an extra $300 for having spent $35 more, they're happy.

This is exactly why they're in business -- to make as much money as the market will allow -- and exactly why these sorts of discussions are sometimes frustrating for me, as a consumer. Of course I don't want a plywood guitar, for æsthetic reasons, but prices remain high because people insist on shopping according to fatuous "differences" they read about online and often haven't even tested for themselves. Make it look decent and sound good, and spare me the $500 difference that cannot even be heard by the experts if they're wearing a blindfold.

Not only that, but some of the best loved hollow and semi-hollow guitars (ES335 and ES175 for example) were/are built and advertised as "laminated".

Laminated is a ply, as in PLYwood.

The push for solid and semi-hollow (and any LAMINATE hollows) was to help tame feedback. A lively resonant body will feedback like a bitch. Gibson, Gretsch, and others found out that with the right construction and bracing, a laminate top (plywood) actually worked and sounded better when plugged in.

Once you plug in, how "lively" it "feels" is a moot point and from a purely technical standpoint, doesn't mean much... unless you WANT uncontrollable feedback.

[SuiteAmpCo]

This is why I'm having my next guitar built out of paper machette egg whites and cherrios (honey nut to be exact, its a "sweeter tone"). Maybe I can get them to do a staburst finish.
Btw those concrete guitars sounds tinny and horrible. I think it only makes a case for using wood. To me it shows how the body does come into play of the guitars overall sound. Maybe they should used some oat bran instead of gravel when mixing the concrete.

[Lowdown]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

…cannot even be heard by the experts if they're wearing a blindfold.

I love you for your crazy oxymoronic mind,Thump

[River]

Originally Posted by SuiteAmpCo

To me it shows how the body does come into play of the guitars overall sound. Maybe they should used some oat bran instead of gravel when mixing the concrete.

"Come into play?"



Yeah, likely fvckin' so.

Still doubt you could tell a hollow from a semi from a solid in a blind test.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by SuiteAmpCo

This is why I'm having my next guitar built out of paper machette egg whites and cherrios (honey nut to be exact, its a "sweeter tone"). Maybe I can get them to do a staburst finish.
Btw those concrete guitars sounds tinny and horrible. I think it only makes a case for using wood. To me it shows how the body does come into play of the guitars overall sound. Maybe they should used some oat bran instead of gravel when mixing the concrete.

What do you think of this replica of the Torres papier-mache guitar? The top is solid cedar, the backs and sides papier-mache over cedar and pine ribbing. You'd think that the acoustic guitar would be a much more revealing format to reveal the superiority of wood and inferiority of alternate materials, but I think this sounds pretty good. Take a listen between 0:45 and 0:50, where he shows how the guitar can grab the two major tones available on an acoustic. Check out between 1:00 and 1:20, where he takes the instrument through a range of tones, including the harmonic at 1:20 that rings like a bell.

Antonio de Torres cardboard guitar replica - YouTube

Antonio de Torres cardboard guitar replica - YouTube

Classical Guitar • - - - Does Torres's papier mache guitar prove anything?

You might be sarcastic here, but I think papier-mache does pretty well. Check it out.

Originally Posted by Lowdown

I love you for your crazy oxymoronic mind,Thump

Brotha, I'm as guilty as anyone else of listening with my eyes.

[SuiteAmpCo]

Originally Posted by River

"Come into play?"



Yeah, likely fvckin' so.

Still doubt you could tell a hollow from a semi from a solid in a blind test.

Yep, I can tell a semi-hollow or a hollowbody from a solidbody. A semi from a full hollow, I may be hard pressed. Don't assume your ears are on my head. What you can't define with your ears makes no difference to mine.
My hyperbole wasn't to say only wood should be used, it was to point out that through the 10 centuries or so of guitar making, nothing better has shown itself more capable of becoming a great guitar as consistenly as wood. And that just maybe likely fvcking so.

[SuiteAmpCo]

[QUOTE=Thumpalumpacus;4131218]What do you think of this replica of the Torres papier-mache guitar? The top is solid cedar, the backs and sides papier-mache over cedar and pine ribbing. You'd think that the acoustic guitar would be a much more revealing format to reveal the superiority of wood and inferiority of alternate materials, but I think this sounds pretty good. Take a listen between 0:45 and 0:50, where he shows how the guitar can grab the two major tones available on an acoustic. Check out between 1:00 and 1:20, where he takes the instrument through a range of tones, including the harmonic at 1:20 that rings like a bell.

Antonio de Torres cardboard guitar replica - YouTube

Antonio de Torres cardboard guitar replica - YouTube

Classical Guitar • - - - Does Torres's papier mache guitar prove anything?

You might be sarcastic here, but I think papier-mache does pretty well. Check it out.

I agree, it sounds good (maybe lacked some bass), and a great player to boot. In acoustics, the top and bracing are the most important as far as sound goes, why did they use wood in those areas and not the other way around? My point here is not to say wood is the only useable soundboard for guitars. I am saying that some things aren't as useable just because the guitar will work.
I take guitars on an individual basis. If I walked into GC and that paper machette guitar was the best sounding for the money I was looking to spend (and it came with a strong warranty) I'd buy it and be happy. But will it improve over time? Hell, will it unravel over time? I know what I'm getting from a traditionally made wooden guitar, match that quality and show me that it will likely improve with age then we got something. I'd buy a guitar made of steel if the sound/price ratio was correct enough. But what about rust, will any amount of it help or detract from the sound? We don't know, so I guess what I'm saying is who's willing to fix what ain't broke? And then make garauntees on top of that?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Originally Posted by SuiteAmpCo

We don't know, so I guess what I'm saying is who's willing to fix what ain't broke?

This is where we disagree in outlook. I like the idea of trying new things, myself. You don't seem to be so comfortable with it. But the fact is, the wood-procurement setup is stressed, and without active steps being taken, it will soon be "broken". Deforestation in the tropics, the source of most tonewoods, is occurring at an alarming rate, still: roughly 125 square miles are cleared daily. That's a square a little over 10 miles long and 12 miles wide cut down, per day

* * * * * * * * *

About the Torres guitar itself -- expecting good bass response out of your computer speakers seems overly optimistic to me. I haven't heard any acoustic guitar sound good through computer speakers -- and very few electrics, for that matter. The cone's too small.

And if sides and back contribute so little to acoustic tones, why are Ovations considered crappy-sounding by so many guitarists, unless plugged in? Surely it's not the wooden top imparting the crappy tone of an unplugged Ovation. It must be that non-wood bowl.

But wait -- sides and back don't matter to tone.

By the way, have you taken any of the blind tests posted here at MLP? River, X-Ray, Electroman67, and (I think) AngryHatter have all put up these tests that have tripped up a bunch of us, myself included. A higher-than-average score would certainly lend gravitas to your points.

[SuiteAmpCo]

Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus

This is where we disagree in outlook. I like the idea of trying new things, myself. You don't seem to be so comfortable with it. But the fact is, the wood-procurement setup is stressed, and without active steps being taken, it will soon be "broken". Deforestation in the tropics, the source of most tonewoods, is occurring at an alarming rate, still: roughly 125 square miles are cleared daily. That's a square a little over 10 miles long and 12 miles wide cut down, per day

* * * * * * * * *

About the Torres guitar itself -- expecting good bass response out of your computer speakers seems overly optimistic to me. I haven't heard any acoustic guitar sound good through computer speakers -- and very few electrics, for that matter. The cone's too small.

And if sides and back contribute so little to acoustic tones, why are Ovations considered crappy-sounding by so many guitarists, unless plugged in? Surely it's not the wooden top imparting the crappy tone of an unplugged Ovation. It must be that non-wood bowl.

But wait -- sides and back don't matter to tone.

By the way, have you taken any of the blind tests posted here at MLP? River, X-Ray, Electroman67, and (I think) AngryHatter have all put up these tests that have tripped up a bunch of us, myself included. A higher-than-average score would certainly lend gravitas to your points.

Never said back and sides don't matter, only said that the top and bracing is most important. I have an old Ovation with the big round back, it is very bass heavey. Most people who play it fall in love with it. Its a great guitar. I have an appluase that I use for slide, bass is kinda dry til I plug it in.
I didn't listen to the video through my computer speakers, which is set up with a 12" powered subwoofer btw, I listened through my Bose headphones. And as far as Bose goes, tell them they can't get bass out of small cones. They've got 4" woofers that'll do the job just fine.
I did do one of the listening test on my own, I think it was River's. I didn't post because it was a long dead thread that I didn't wanna revive. I remember that I got the variax mixed up with something else. It was a while ago I can't be more specific than that. I remember being surprised by that though.
As far as points go, the only people I ever feel the need to prove things to are living under my roof. You either take me at my word or you don't. It doesn't make my word worth any less if you don't. You seem like a nice and intelligent guy. I think you get what I'm saying here about the subject at hand. Until something as consistent or even close to acceptable comes along, wood is it, concrete ain't.
You can't put lipstick on pig and get guys to ask her on a date. Well...unless your in the appalachians.lol

[joshatatlasstands]

Originally Posted by SuiteAmpCo

Well...unless your in the appalachians.lol

Hey! You're disrespecting me now... talking about my back yard! Where in the hell did that come from???

and what does it have to do with the subject?

The Appalachians are absolutely amazing in every way, and the Appalachian culture is kind and generous regardless of what kind of women we prefer! wtf?

Low blow there.

[AllanDR]

I think wood does make make a big difference, i had a Epi LP, i changed the Pups to Seymour 59's , i then tried a Gibson LP and the difference in tone was much much better than the Epi, Epi's are good to a certain extent, if you can afford the Gibson LP it will be worth it.