Les Pauls in this economy

[Bonehead]

Apologies in advance if I should have posted this somewhere else, but I'd really like to hear what people have to say on this issue...

I posted two LPs on the members forum here of late, both at (what I consider) basement prices, and there hasn't been much movement on either - save some pretty low offers. This has caused me no real pain, as I don't really need the money, but my how things have changed. One of these guitars I bought from this very site a couple years ago, and at the time I was lucky to be the first, fast response of at least 15 or 20 that wanted the guitar. Granted, this is just one website, and doesn't represent the whole guitar buying world, but my guitars are listed on local Craigslist too, and I've had just as little response there.

I also see far more posts along the lines of, "must sell to pay the rent," than could possibly make anyone comfortable. Point being, the economy's in crapper, clearly.

What has this done to the over-inflated vintage market?

What about Gibson and other manufacturers - is it right to assume they aren't selling many guitars either?

I'm curious to hear thoughts and first hand experiences of those on this forum. I know some of you are going through hard times (I'm thankful to say that I am not), but I'd really like to hear what you have to say about it...the whole current situation.

Are the days of the virtually constant ATM society that dead? Can Gibson really be selling, say, a lot of 59 Historics in this economy?

Will some of the big companies go bust? Gibson? Guitar Center (as much as that one would please some....)

[Adrian81]

Originally Posted by Bonehead

Will some of the big companies go bust? Gibson? Guitar Center (as much as that one would please some....)

No, I don't think so. Especially for the manufacturers (Gibson, Fender, etc)

Just move the manufacturing to China and sell the guitars in Asia.

Asians love western brands

[brokenarrow5]

it's the economy, everyone is broke or afraid to spend-- it is trade only out there for the most part

[cck801]

Not that this directly addresses your post, but it seems that the big chains have not been very sensitive to the economic hardships many are facing. This tells me that either demand is meeting supply--in other words, the guitar-buying market has been somewhat insulated from the market volitility-or that they are clutching desperately to the inflated prices. I'm sure there is an economic rationale, but it does seem rather inconsistent with other markets. When demand for gasoline goes down (e.g., when we start carpooling, taking public transportation, or driving much less to avoid rising gas prices), the prices go down as well. While this usually means a downturn in the economy, must of us rejoice at the gas pump when we are paying less than $3 a gallon. However, w/ LPs, we haven't really seen a large-scale reduction in prices, which suggests to me that we are still buying them in droves. Perhaps the big chains are masking price reductions in discounts, sales, and promotions, but it appears to me that LPs (especially new ones) aren't any cheaper than they were prior to the Wall Street implosion. Sorry for the rambling.

[Bonehead]

Originally Posted by cck801

Not that this directly addresses your post, but it seems that the big chains have not been very sensitive to the economic hardships many are facing. This tells me that either demand is meeting supply--in other words, the guitar-buying market has been somewhat insulated from the market volitility-or that they are clutching desperately to the inflated prices. I'm sure there is an economic rationale, but it does seem rather inconsistent with other markets. When demand for gasoline goes down (e.g., when we start carpooling, taking public transportation, or driving much less to avoid rising gas prices), the prices go down as well. While this usually means a downturn in the economy, must of us rejoice at the gas pump when we are paying less than $3 a gallon. However, w/ LPs, we haven't really seen a large-scale reduction in prices, which suggests to me that we are still buying them in droves. Perhaps the big chains are masking price reductions in discounts, sales, and promotions, but it appears to me that LPs (especially new ones) aren't any cheaper than they were prior to the Wall Street implosion. Sorry for the rambling.

Not a ramble at all. Good insight.

[cck801]

Originally Posted by Bonehead

Not a ramble at all. Good insight.

Thanks B'head

[Mstele97]

I am mixed on it. I have had a little interest on two nice $300 guitars but have had a ton on one that was $1500. The eventual buyer of the $1500 Les Paul was near here, drove here, took it for a spin and walked away.
It is hard to judge sales by an internet forum. It is a time when people don't trust one another or the shipping company so we look at a guitar here then go to a store with a return policy, use a coupon and take the same guitar home. I have done that over the years. I feel that 2 of every 10 guitars posted on a forum like here ot TGP are eventually sold. It is more window shopping unless it is just an unbeatable deal.

[joesatch]

One thing ive noticed is alot of people trying to sell their Pauls for prices way too close to what i could get a new one for. The FS section, lots of Trad Plus for $1500-$1600. This makes no sense cause i can get a new one shipped to me from MF for the same price. (15%, 10% always in effect). I go on ebay and people think they have some kinda gold mine on their hands. Lots of 90's-2000's Classics for $1800-$2000. WTH they thinking? I can get a Custom or a Historic for like $200 more. i find that its even worse when the seller knows nothing about Les Pauls and tries to sell a 2001 Standard for $2500-$3000 , excuse me? You FS folks need a reality check.

[Lucky One]

Another problem that hurts used sales is that without any arm twisting, I have bought 5 brand new Gibsons in the past 6 months from two of the large online stores at 20% off, free shipping, 6 - 12 months of no interest and a liberal return policy. A $2000 Les Paul comes down to $1600. The guy that paid $2000 for that same guitar 2 years ago and is now trying to get $1500 for it is competing in a market so soft that the retailers have to blow the new stuff out just to do business. I got a new Midtown Custom (Reg. 1499)for $1200 shipped. I just saw a used one advertised for $1275. Which would you buy ?
Things are tough and I think that even people with expendable cash are more cautious.
I have some guitars that I bought used in the past couple years and thought that I stole them. If I had to sell them now, I'd be lucky to break even and if I had to use Ebay and paypal, I'd surely lose money.

[Lucky One]

Joesatch,

We must think alike. We essentially were posting the same message at the same time !

[colchar]

Another thing to consider is that people have only recently been hit with, and are likely still paying off, their Christmas credit card bills. The economy is definitely in poor shape but the time of year is likely a contributing factor. If you were to try and sell those guitars in April or June you might find a lot more interested buyers.

[Mike-t]

Originally Posted by joesatch

One thing ive noticed is alot of people trying to sell their Pauls for prices way too close to what i could get a new one for. The FS section, lots of Trad Plus for $1500-$1600. This makes no sense cause i can get a new one shipped to me from MF for the same price. (15%, 10% always in effect). I go on ebay and people think they have some kinda gold mine on their hands. Lots of 90's-2000's Classics for $1800-$2000. WTH they thinking? I can get a Custom or a Historic for like $200 more. i find that its even worse when the seller knows nothing about Les Pauls and tries to sell a 2001 Standard for $2500-$3000 , excuse me? You FS folks need a reality check.

This... I've been keeping an eye on it and prices seem crazy high everywhere. For example there has been a guy on my local CL trying to sell one of the 60's Les Paul's with the p90's that list for $900 brand new for $850... WTF?

Are people expecting no depreciation? What's the world coming to when you can buy something cheaper used at a music store than private party?

[captain von rat]

there are bargains galore ... especially second hand. i fyou hvae the cash, you can grab some great deals on Gibson's right now ... i've bought 4 in the last 6 months - 3 LP's & 1 x SG including a 96 VOS Goldtop for a price so ridiculous i felt like i was ripping the guy off.

[bdubbs]

Those that buy luxury items are less effected by the recent economic issues.

For example, I work in the DC area with a LOT of government contracting. On a large scale we are much less effected. Also, these are a lot of folks that buy expensive guitars.

[Dino Velvet]

No problem selling a $4500 guitar and no problem selling a $200 guitar. It's the middle that has disappeared. Just like America. The Bently dealer and the Benz dealer here are doing fine. And there's an unemployed guy standing on every corner. Welcome to the dream, 2012 edition.

[in2madness]

I have spoken to a couple of dealers in the UK who have both stated they have no problem selling the high end guitars and amps. Just take a look a all the Beano's and Goldies for example. Most are sold before they hit the shops. The people that buy these sorts of guitars do not own just one guitar either. Just wait and see how long the aged signed Kossof guitars sit in the shops they have probably already been mostly pre-sold. Selling something a little more common and mass produced is going to be a lot harder when you are competing with big chains, big discounts and risk free return policies as many have stated.
If your selling stuff good photos, a well written description and realistic idea of somethings value will stand you in good stead and make you look good against the competion. Buyers have lots of options these days.

[smcgov]

I do think people are a little unrealistic as to what they can get for stuff...Gibson has been moving a good amount of less expensive stuff lately...Jr's for $699, The tributes for $850..the trad pro's are available new for $1600 to $1800....makes it hard to sell a 2000's standard for $1500 or more.

That being said I had decent success selling my 2008 Slash on ebay (got $2250).

[Mike-t]

Originally Posted by smcgov

I do think people are a little unrealistic as to what they can get for stuff...Gibson has been moving a good amount of less expensive stuff lately...Jr's for $699, The tributes for $850..the trad pro's are available new for $1600 to $1800....makes it hard to sell a 2000's standard for $1500 or more.

That being said I had decent success selling my 2008 Slash on ebay (got $2250).

Agreed. I'm sure that there are some great deals on the reissue stuff but the everyday "Working man" guitar prices are way out of whack.

[RedSkwirrell]

Standard.
Les Pauls go up and down like the gold price.

[Mike-t]

For example...

2011 GIBSON USA LES PAUL TRADITIONAL BIGSBY EBONY BLACK 315864206 | eBay

Can the bigsby add that much value to a used guitar? Doubtful

[Mike-t]

With all of that being said however, someone should scoop up Bonehead's guitar... Really good lowered price!

2010 LP Tradtional Pro - $1500

[ToneasaurusRex]

joesatch is right on the money, forgive the pun. I see used American Standard Strats offered for sale all the time at $700-900 when you can have your pick of brand-new ones off the wall at any Fender dealer for $999.

The last guitar I sold, last fall, was a $300 Ibanez, made in China. I priced it at $150 and got a lot of interest. The eventual buyer didn't haggle, because I'd offered it at a fair price to begin with. Similarly, the last guitar I bought, again last fall, was an Alvarez acoustic with a solid top and nice tone. $300 in 2006, guy offered it for $125. I said "that's a fair price, here ya go."

Like many of us, I love guitars but I'm not loaded. But there are still bargains to be had . . . and made.

Peace

Rex

[budg]

Originally Posted by joesatch

One thing ive noticed is alot of people trying to sell their Pauls for prices way too close to what i could get a new one for. The FS section, lots of Trad Plus for $1500-$1600. This makes no sense cause i can get a new one shipped to me from MF for the same price. (15%, 10% always in effect). I go on ebay and people think they have some kinda gold mine on their hands. Lots of 90's-2000's Classics for $1800-$2000. WTH they thinking? I can get a Custom or a Historic for like $200 more. i find that its even worse when the seller knows nothing about Les Pauls and tries to sell a 2001 Standard for $2500-$3000 , excuse me? You FS folks need a reality check.

I have to agree with this.I just bought a new 335 and found some used ones .A few on ebay and a few at GC. I ended up paying 100 dollars more for a new one than what I would have paid for a used one.Granted the used ones were less tha 2 years old, but used is used.

[fairlanericky]

Originally Posted by Mike-t

For example...

2011 GIBSON USA LES PAUL TRADITIONAL BIGSBY EBONY BLACK 315864206 | eBay

Can the bigsby add that much value to a used guitar? Doubtful

Mike, look at the location. That's why this price is so high. All of the stuff I've seen from Japan on Ebay is always expensive.

[pmonk]

When people start getting their refund checks, the market will pick up.

[fairlanericky]

Originally Posted by pmonk

When people start getting their refund checks, the market will pick up.

I'm saving mine for next year when I turn 50, hope to get an R9 for the mid life crisis.

[major]

Originally Posted by Bonehead

Will some of the big companies go bust? Gibson? Guitar Center (as much as that one would please some....)

I bought my first Les Paul in 1966. Cost me £180 (around $290 in todays money, although it would have been more dollarwise back in those days).

The instrument was second-hand, because Gibson DID NOT sell a new Les Paul back then. Fender had blown them out of the water, so the SG had replaced the "heavy old" Les Paul.

By '68, as we all know, times were a'changing, and the Les Paul and the Strat began their stupid price climb to oblivion. Prices went UP, and UP and UP.

However, despite the stupid amounts of cash coming in on products that cost little to produce, BOTH companies have had to be rescued from ruin more than once. So I guess it could easily happen again.

Here's a tip for business students - if you wanna know how to be a success in business, DON'T follow Gibson or Fender.....

PS. I think Gibson should produce a "vintage" 65 model. They could probably charge maybe $499.00. They'd just have to send you an empty box.........

[jfwund]

Ebay period is going to be more expensive. I'm not sure how unrealistic the prices are when you subtract 10% off of the sale price, another 3% for paypal fees, and then factor shipping into it...

I know I've priced guitars on ebay to factor those fees in. That $1800 classic on ebay will probably end up netting the seller around $1500 when all's said and done, and that's not a terrible price. That's another reason not to buy or sell on ebay...

[zslane]

By not listing on eBay you are significantly restricting your potential buyer pool. There is really no substitute for tapping into the global population of buyers. Last year I sold a mint condition 2003 Standard for $2200 and a 1996 Standard Goldtop (GC "limited edition") in excellent condition for $2500. I sold a total of three Les Pauls (for more than $2k each, mind you) during the same "rotten" economic times affecting you and everyone else. It isn't the economy as much as I think it is your selling methodology. Had I only listed here or on craigslist I doubt they would have sold for the amounts that they did.

As for guitar companies like Gibson going out of business I don't think that will happen any time soon. Based on what I've heard from various Gibson retailers over the years, it sounds like most of Gibson's sales come from their Epiphone guitars (just like most of Fender's sales probably come from Squier and MIM products), which sell well no matter what the prevailing economic conditions are. Cheap stuff marketed effectively can keep a company afloat through tumultuous economic times. Companies with nothing but high-end product probably has more to worry about if they also rely on robust sales volumes (like PRS maybe).

[themightyjaymoe]

I've been looking at Getting a LP Custom, searching here the usual online retailers (even some not so usual ones) and the typical auction sites like ebay, gbase, mlp classifieds, etc. Most prices for most used pieces are absurd. I understand that if you buy something like a Gibson you want a return on your investment but most people dont realize that you will take a hit when you sell. A lot has been already said in earlier posts that I agree with. I'm not paying 3k for a 25-30 year old custom that is in 'players condition' with chips, dings, etc. Don't tell me about how rare it is either. Try to convince me I should buy it, I'll tell you to lay off the sauce.