fenders dirty little secret

[loaded six string]

I was doing some reearch on whether or not Fenders 62 RI strat had a true nitro finish on them or was a "hybrid" nitro over poly. I came across this......article or statement on the fender forum. pretty interesting reading.
Fenders Dirty Little Secret -
The Plastic Coating of Guitars since 1963

Fact:
All Fender Guitars made since 1963 are Polyester coated. Lacquer is put on top of the poly to satisfy the general publics belief that Nitro Cellulose (nitro) Lacquer finished guitars "breathe", "dry" and generally have become the bottom line for creating great tome. I'm talking USA, Vintage collectable instruments that the general public has bought, traded, and sold for over 50 years. They came from the Fender factor with a hard plastic jacket underneath it. A suffocating wolf, masquerading under a cloak of Lacquer Fender later switched to 100% Poly and UltraViolet cured Resin on Squire, Mexican, Japanese, some USA and all other imports till this day.

Fact:
The two-part catalyzed coating named "Fullerplast" (Fuller for Fuller O'Brien, the products creator, and plast for the obvious PLASTIC"), solved all of Fenders finishing problems; encasing the deep wood pores in a self-hardening plastic that wrapped the body in a rock-hard solid coffin. In some cases we have found it to be as thick as a.060 string. Yes, all of the wood moisture and characteristics are sealed in a virtual time-capsule, only to be vented from the body through screw holes and paint fractures. Share this info and be the hit of your next guitar gathering!


Fact:
Fender rarely mentions Fullerplast, or the way it prepares its bodies before applying Lacquer. If they mention it at all
So, when someone tells you that a Fender "nitro-cellulose" or "nitro" finished guitar will sound better, have more warmth, or will dry out... they really don't have the full story.

Ask any seasoned guitar craftsman what happens when you will apply paint stripper to a Fender "nitro" finish.

The nitro color comes off within minutes, leaving the guitar with a rock-hard plastic coating that can not be removed with any chemical means. Sandpaper barely scratches this coating, but will remove it with mechanical help. Heat Guns will remove the coating, but not by softening it. Apply heat to the Fullerplast coating and it will remain solid until about 300F, at which time it will crack, and pop off of the guitar.

WIN A BET,
BUT GET A PUNCH

The next time someone brags about how good their "lacquer" Fender guitar sounds, because it breathes, try this.

Take a cotton swab dipped nail polish remover, and take a wipe at an inconspicuous area on the guitar. Either
1) The finish will remain un-touched, or
2) You will wipe away the color coat, and see the rock-hard, insoluble Fullerplast. (sunburst guitar photo on left)

If all the finish comes off and you get to bare wood, the Fender guitar has been stripped and refinished.

Either way, you get to say you know something, before you hit the floor.



It's a fact, , its scientific, and it's the skeleton in Fenders closet, that they never want to be seen. They have kept it locked away like a bastard child, allowing players, collectors, and experts to spread the "nitro" legend as the holy-grail of tone!

When did Fender start the plastic coating process, and why?

Most experts agree that Fullerplast was started to be used by Fender in 1963
There are many experts that are willing to share the facts with the guitar community, just as I am.

The most time consuming part of finishing a solid guitar body, is the process of filling the wood pores, and allowing the paint to lay flay, with a gloss found on Grand Pianos, or automobiles. Fender needed a fast and easy solution in order speed up production during the guitar craze of the early 1960s. Encasing the wood in a smooth, hard, "glass" jacket would eliminate up to 20 hours in each body prep. Fender even experimented with a hot dip that resembled a candy apple method. The problem was that the dip mixture would need to be at a temperature that would damage the wood, or cause body moisture to create "steam pops" in the coating


When Fender switched to Alder (from Ash) as it's primary body wood in mid 1956, many books and authorities state Fender started using the product called "Fullerplast" This is a very misunderstood product. For example, there is a picture in Tom Wheeler's American Guitars, page 54 (upper left corner), of a man with long rubber gloves dipping bodies into a tank at Fender in the late 1950's. The description incorrectly denotes the man is applying Fullerplast to the bodies. Most likely, this man is staining the Alder bodies yellow, a process used on Alder from 1956 and later before spraying the sunburst finish. (2) Thanks to VintageGuitarHQ


Fullerplast is a clear, sprayed chemically curing sealer, unaffected by solvents after it dries. It's invention is often given credit to Fuller O'Brien (but often though to be named after the city of Fullerton, the home of Fender) Whether either is the case, it is now manufactured and distributed by VanDee,

Fullerplast soaks into the wood and creates a seal that prevents following coats from soaking into the wood like a sponge. This means spraying the color coats is easier and the coats can be applied thinner (saving material, money and dry time). Even though alder is a "closed pore" wood, the first few coats of lacquer will soak in like a sponge without some type of sealer coat. Fullerplast dries in 15 minutes, and is paintable in one hour. It is also applied very thin.
Most experts agree the actual product Fullerplast actually started to be used around 1963 at Fender. Prior to that, Fender used other products as their sealer coat, but they did the same thing. The sealer allowed any color coat (be it sunburst or a custom color) to not soak into the wood. Since the sealer is essentially a clear inexpensive primer, less color would be needed (and color costs a lot more money than a cheap sealer).

Another misconception about Fullerplast is it's color. The sealers Fender used including Fullerplast were clear, not yellow. The yellow seen in the unpainted portions of a 1956 and later Alder body is actually a stain or dye applied under the sealer coat. This was used to simplify the sunbursting process. The Alder bodies are dipped in a vat of yellow stain/dye. Next the Alder body is sealed with a very thin coat of clear sealer (i.e. "Fullerplast"). After drying, the sunburst procedure is continued by spraying the translucent red (starting in 1958) and dark blackish-brown on the edges of the body, which completes the sunburst look. Finally a clear coat is sprayed over the entire body to seal the colors. By dipping the alder bodies in a yellow stain first, instead of spraying yellow lacquer, there is one less step of lacquer to mix, spray, and dry. *

By fall 1964, Fender changed the yellow making it more whitish and opaque to better hide flaws in the wood. This allowed Fender to use cheaper Alder with more cosmetic flaws. The more whitish yellow was then sprayed over the sealer coat, as were the red and brown of the Sunburst. That is why the red and yellow now looks much different on late 1964 and later Fenders. This new whitish-yellow bleeds through the translucent red making it more orangish. Note that even though Fender was now spraying the yellow after the Fullerplast, they still continued to stain or dye the bodies yellow before the sealer coat.

Current use of Polyester and UV coatings on Fender Guitars.
Probably cause for another article is the case of Ultra Violet cured paints and sealers now used by most production guitar manufacturers. UV allows a very thick and durable coating to be applied directly over bare wood without any need for pore filling. UV cures the paint to its hardest state within minutes, not allowing the finish to soak into the wood.

If you have ever chipped an Ibanez guitar, you know what I mean.
Essentially, beneath every vintage Fender is an Ibanez coating in-waiting for you.

[alk-3]

Originally Posted by loaded six string

It's a fact, , its scientific, and it's the skeleton in Fenders closet, that they never want to be seen. They have kept it locked away like a bastard child, allowing players, collectors, and experts to spread the "nitro" legend as the holy-grail of tone!

This is nonsense. The wood used is kiln dried and is never going to be drier than it is the second it comes out of the kiln. By putting a breathable finish on a guitar you’re more likely to have an unstable piece of wood as the moisture gets absorbed and released during weather changes.
Oh and also, Nitro cellulose lacquer doesn't breathe anyway. It was developed as an automotive paint originally and anyone who knows anything about automotive paints knows the last thing you want is a coating that moisture can easy migrate through.
People seriously need to start educating themselves on the products they consider to be the "holy grail". this is far from being fenders "dirty little secret" in fact I would be more likely to describe this as a misconception that just about everyone has bought into without questioning its logic. The whole reason nitro is perceived to sound better is because it’s a thinner finish... period. It does NOT breathe.

[loaded six string]

I'll buy the "not breathing" theory but If nitro is a thinner finish, then wouldn't that let the wood resonate better than a piece encased in the "fullerplast" or other poly coated guitar ?

[alk-3]

you bet it would, i certainly don't dissagree with nitro sounding better, all i'm saying is the only reason it sounds better is it's relative thickness. i prefer nitro because i think it looks better once it begins to age.

[loaded six string]

I'll agree with you on that, a naturally aged nitro guitar looks awesome. I'm not a professional musician and probably couldn't tell the difference tonaly between 2 strats that were finished in 100% nitro and the other in poly. A lot of it is just bragging rights on what you have or don't have.

[krapsusa]

Paint breathes as it cures. It creates a outer film and then dry toward the wood. If you seal it in plastic then you can use not as dense wood. Sealing it in a hard outer covering would keep moisture from getting back in to the softer wood after it comes out of the kiln.




What kind of wood is used to make Fenders?

Does it really matter?

[dennistruckdriver]

Originally Posted by loaded six string

I was doing some reearch on whether or not Fenders 62 RI strat had a true nitro finish on them or was a "hybrid" nitro over poly. I came across this......article or statement on the fender forum. pretty interesting reading.
Fenders Dirty Little Secret -
The Plastic Coating of Guitars since 1963

Fact:
All Fender Guitars made since 1963 are Polyester coated.

I feel ya! I tried to strip a recent Highway 1 Strat, and once I got the color off, I just couldn't understand why my sandpaper was having so little affect on the 'bare wood' underneath.
Now I know.
Thanks.

[Mr Bones]

News flash: gibson gain filler isn't exactly a church bell either.

[loaded six string]

Originally Posted by nmguitars

News flash: gibson gain filler isn't exactly a church bell either.

does that mean ?

[dennistruckdriver]

Originally Posted by nmguitars

News flash: gibson gain filler isn't exactly a church bell either.

Perhaps you meant 'grain' filler?
(Spell check!)

[lightningmonkey]

Selling my American Standard tomorrow.

[captain tightpants]

Originally Posted by lightningmonkey

Selling my American Standard tomorrow.

I'll give ya $50!!!!

[Inside Guy]

This is nonsense. The wood used is kiln dried and is never going to be drier than it is the second it comes out of the kiln

Sorry, but the above statement is not really true... you can pull a piece of wood out of a kiln and put it in a drier enviornment, and it will continue to loose moisture.

"By putting a breathable finish on a guitar you’re more likely to have an unstable piece of wood as the moisture gets absorbed and released during weather changes."

If the above statement were true, then all acoustic guitars are "Unstable". All fingerboards would be "unstable". Let's not get crazy here...look, as long as you know how to care for a guitar....you will be fine. That means keeping the relative humidity at about 45%.


Oh and also, Nitro cellulose lacquer doesn't breathe anyway. It was developed as an automotive paint originally and anyone who knows anything about automotive paints knows the last thing you want is a coating that moisture can easy migrate through.

You're right, Nitro does not breathe, it doesnt eat, or sleep either. Nitro is pourous though, thus the fact that things can migrate through the finish.
Dont believe me? Do a search on "Neck binding bleed" Also, nitro sprayed over STEEL, is very different then spraying it over wood.

People seriously need to start educating themselves on the products they consider to be the "holy grail". this is far from being fenders "dirty little secret" in fact I would be more likely to describe this as a misconception that just about everyone has bought into without questioning its logic. The whole reason nitro is perceived to sound better is because it’s a thinner finish... period. It does NOT breathe.[/QUOTE]

Your'e right again, educating ourselves is a good thing. Nitro isnt "thin" by nature...in fact you can spray it an inch thick if you wanted to....the great thing about it is...it gets thinner all by itself over time. Thus the "aging" process and improvement of tone. THAT is why it's a better finish.
Oh, it's very easily repaired too....another great feature about nitro lacquer.

[FLICKOFLASH]

you want nitro parts talk to our new member

The Guitar Tone Shop

[buyusfear]

If nitro doesn't breathe, then why does it allow color to bleed so easily?
Like from under the finish right onto plastic...

[FLICKOFLASH]

breathing thru the screw holes . Nitro vaporizes away & thins

[MarkL8]

Ole Gibby has skeletons too chambered, or it tone chambered...or is it swiss cheesed or is it weight relieved but my fave is them genuine bumble bee reissues. As far as corporate BS artists go I gotta give the cake to Gibson...Fender aint no angel mind you but Gibby has a gift for beng slimeballs when it comes to marketing and manufacturing.

[LoKi]

For the record, acoustic guitars and fingerboard are notoriously unstable. Acoustic guitars *higher end, non poly finished usually* are in danger of cracking or swelling depending on humidity and conditions, and fingerboards 'shrink' all the time after drying out.

I don't know how this thread got turned into a 'Gibson is just as dirty' when the original post was just some information about Fender's finishing process. We all know that ALL big business' are crooked. It's not new information, so comparing the big G in relation to this topic is unnecessary.

I'm not convinced that nitro vs. poly can prove that either one is better. I've played plenty of poly guitars that were great, and I own plenty of Gibson's with their nitro, and they're all fine too. Both of my Strats are stellar as well.

[LoKi]

Oh and one thing I'll say about nitro, being a porous finish is that you can't touch it to anything for any length of time. My Les Paul Custom sat in its protector case for 3 weeks while I was on vacation, and now has a pink stain on the bottom edge from the red interior of the case. Nice.

Don't tell me the nitro isn't cured. The guitar will be 30 years old soon.

[3dmac]

Originally Posted by MarkL8

Ole Gibby has skeletons too chambered, or it tone chambered...or is it swiss cheesed or is it weight relieved but my fave is them genuine bumble bee reissues. As far as corporate BS artists go I gotta give the cake to Gibson...Fender aint no angel mind you but Gibby has a gift for beng slimeballs when it comes to marketing and manufacturing.

What you have there is not a re-issue type ( real is waxed papered not plastic)

[3dmac]

OK here is the story Nito does not CURE (polymerization )
Binders can be categorized according to drying, or curing mechanism. The four most common are 1:simple solvent evaporation(this is NITRO )
, oxidative crosslinking, catalyzed polymerization, and coalescence. There are others.

Note that drying and curing are two different processes.
Drying generally refers to evaporation of vehicle, whereas curing refers to polymerization of the binder. Depending on chemistry and composition, any particular paint may undergo either, or both processes. Thus, there are paints that dry only, those that dry then cure, and those that do not depend on drying for curing.

Paints that dry by simple solvent evaporation contain a solid binder dissolved in a solvent; this forms a solid film when the solvent evaporates, and the film can re-dissolve in the solvent again. Classic nitrocellulose lacquers fall into this category, as do non-grain raising stains composed of dyes dissolved in solvent. This is why nitro is an easy repair.

This is why nitro bleeds ! It is in a constant state of evaporation (drying) which can take Days/ weeks/ months/ and even yrs to completely dry.

Not like a poly finish. This cures (catalyzed polymerization) and can not be re-dissolved when completely cured.

Both work and both can effect tone ( nitro is a thin build up finish, were as poly is a thicker film. But can be polished out the same day)
Thinner = less resonance damping than a thicker film.
My EPI LP has a nice warm mellow LP tone Compared to my GIBY LP which is brighter. Both are great Les Paul tones.

[MarkL8]

Originally Posted by 3dmac

What you have there is not a re-issue type ( real is waxed papered not plastic)

That is a factory re-issue BB pulled from a Historic. While that is not my photo when I changed caps in my 07 R8 I found the same thing.

[3dmac]

The R8 is a reissue( spec wise ), but the plastic caps are not. That was my point. Real OE BB are wax dipped rolled paper/foil inside, and not a modern ceramic like that pic.
But finding OE style would $, compared to modern reproductions like this one.

[lexluthier]

Anybody who knows anything about vintage Fenders knows about Fullerplast, it's not a secret. They didn't spray it on thick, most pre-CBS Fenders had a realatively thin finish. My own '63 Strat has an incredibly thin finish. Now, when Fender started using that really thick undercoat later on like on the 70's stuff, that's a different story. That junk is hard as a rock and glopped on thick, and the color lacquer overcoats and topcoat were fairly thick, too. It made for a very thick finish

[scottystrathead]

Yes there is a lot of hype over nitro.The bottom line is that it is a love thang.I love the nitro guitars and that is why i finish them that way.Its a very subtle thing.Once you have played a real nitro guitar over a period of time then switch and play a poly finish it will feel terrible to you.Half the deal is that if it looks and feels good to you it will play better,Its a vibe thang.If you ever build your own guitar you will be an addict for life.

[alk-3]

edited for layout

Originally Posted by Inside Guy

This is nonsense. The wood used is kiln dried and is never going to be drier than it is the second it comes out of the kiln

Sorry, but the above statement is not really true... you can pull a piece of wood out of a kiln and put it in a drier enviornment, and it will continue to loose moisture.

True, but there are very few environments that are drier than a kiln, certainly none where a guitar is going to spend any significant amount of time.

"By putting a breathable finish on a guitar you’re more likely to have an unstable piece of wood as the moisture gets absorbed and released during weather changes."

If the above statement were true, then all acoustic guitars are "Unstable". All fingerboards would be "unstable". Let's not get crazy here...look, as long as you know how to care for a guitar....you will be fine. That means keeping the relative humidity at about 45%.

Uhhh... acoustic guitars are VERY unstable, and as for finger boards, ever hear of fret sprout?


Oh and also, Nitro cellulose lacquer doesn't breathe anyway. It was developed as an automotive paint originally and anyone who knows anything about automotive paints knows the last thing you want is a coating that moisture can easy migrate through.

You're right, Nitro does not breathe, it doesnt eat, or sleep either. Nitro is pourous though, thus the fact that things can migrate through the finish.
Dont believe me? Do a search on "Neck binding bleed" Also, nitro sprayed over STEEL, is very different then spraying it over wood.

Nitro is NOT porous. Nitro does however dissolve easily in many different chemicals allowing it to become a very viscous liquid again, and allowing colours to migrate through it. This is often seen when a guitar is left on a cheap guitar stand for long periods of time.

People seriously need to start educating themselves on the products they consider to be the "holy grail". this is far from being fenders "dirty little secret" in fact I would be more likely to describe this as a misconception that just about everyone has bought into without questioning its logic. The whole reason nitro is perceived to sound better is because it’s a thinner finish... period. It does NOT breathe.[/QUOTE]

Your'e right again, educating ourselves is a good thing. Nitro isnt "thin" by nature...in fact you can spray it an inch thick if you wanted to....the great thing about it is...it gets thinner all by itself over time. Thus the "aging" process and improvement of tone. THAT is why it's a better finish.
Oh, it's very easily repaired too....another great feature about nitro lacquer.

Nitro IS thin relatively speaking. When I shoot nitro it takes about 10 coats of it to reach the same thickness as ONE coat of my post-cat lacquers when they are mixed according to their MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets).

[Sgt.Pepper]

You know, Fullerplast is one of the most misunderstood aspects of Fender finishing. It has changed greatly through the years but has always been at the leading edge of finishing technology of the time. The Fullerplast made now is different to that made in the 70's which is different again to that made in the early 60's. I Spent a couple of hours talking to a tech at Fuller O'Brian about Fullerplast and learned that the early Fullerplast was basically a catalyzed cellulose, and the stuff Fender ordered was a satin finish, so the later coats would stick better.

[loaded six string]

Ive been thinking on getting a 62 RI strat. The specs says that it has a nitro finish. But, ive read on a fender forum that it is actually nitro OVER poly, so, I am on the fence about this purchase now. Does anyone know anything about what is the real facts on this ?

[Inside Guy]

"True, but there are very few environments that are drier than a kiln, certainly none where a guitar is going to spend any significant amount of time."

The amount of time the wood spends in the Kiln is the big factor here. Just because wood went in the kiln doesnt mean the wood is dry. If you have wood in there for an hour...the surface of the wood will dry a bit, but the interior will not be dry. Put it in there for 6 weeks, and its going to be toast.

Uhhh... acoustic guitars are VERY unstable, and as for finger boards, ever hear of fret sprout?

I thnk the word "Un-stable' is a bit harsh here. If your Humidity level is stable, then your guitar will be stable, and this includes fingerboards (assuming they were kiln dired properly in the first place). Fret Sprout is caused by a shinking fingerboard, which is caused by too low of a humidity level. Again, keep that humidiy at about 45% and your wood won't shrink, nor expand. That offers the best wood stability

[FLICKOFLASH]

look how thick that finish is !!!