Epiphone Elitist gold top or Gibson vintage mahogany?

[dcmey]

Originally Posted by Grand Pappy in Chandler

Concerning Term. 7's obeservation on wood quality - I 've not looked into any p/u, or control cavities of an EPI Elitest, so I can't comment on that particular model, but was I horrified at the wood quality in the cavities my "ebony" Gold Top '56 Epi LP. Looks like pencil wood!!!! From what I hear, good quality tone woods are getting harder and harder to find. I know the Elitest is made in Japan as oppossed to the cheaper Epi's from China, but I really wonder if there is a real difference in woods used????

The elitist is made with African mahogany, and the Gibson is made with Honduras Mahogany. Honduras is better than African, but African is better than what the other epis are made from.

[Termanator7]

Originally Posted by dcmey

The elitist is made with African mahogany, and the Gibson is made with Honduras Mahogany. Honduras is better than African, but African is better than what the other epis are made from.

Well, they are both Mahogany, thats gotta count!

[ZoomZilla]

Originally Posted by dcmey

The elitist is made with African mahogany, and the Gibson is made with Honduras Mahogany. Honduras is better than African, but African is better than what the other epis are made from.

Dang. My guitar was made from driftwood. Maybe that's why it doesn't sound good!

[GrouchyDog]

Originally Posted by ZoomZilla

Dang. My guitar was made from driftwood. Maybe that's why it doesn't sound good!

Swamp ash often grows (surprise, surprise) in swamps, so my 52 RI Telecaster is pretty close to driftwood...

My apologies for the random-access irrelevance. We may now resume Epiphone and/or Les Paul-related content.

[kec]

Originally Posted by dcmey

The elitist is made with African mahogany, and the Gibson is made with Honduras Mahogany. Honduras is better than African, but African is better than what the other epis are made from.

Really?!? Both of those types of mahogany are used by some acoustic guitar builders and are very similar tone-wise. The major difference is the color and they way it machines. The honduras has a better natural color and machines (supposedly) better, but the weight is very close to the african. But, then again, weight varies within the species itself. So, who know... My brain hurts...

I'd be more concerned with the way the wood is dried. Slow kiln dried is supposed to be superior to anything else.

[hbucker]

I think there is a general assumption that African must be inferior to Honduran since it's used by Epiphone for their Elitists. Other than a couple of differences noted above, I've never seen anything to indicate that it's anything but a great tonewood and viable alternative to Honduran. If someone can send me to a link to the contrary that IS NOT just a forum of people stating their opinions, I'd be happy to read it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying I've looked and I haven't found it.

Of course then there are guitar forums where everyone knows that Afircan is clearly inferior...

[dcmey]

Originally Posted by hbucker

I think there is a general assumption that African must be inferior to Honduran since it's used by Epiphone for their Elitists. Other than a couple of differences noted above, I've never seen anything to indicate that it's anything but a great tonewood and viable alternative to Honduran. If someone can send me to a link to the contrary that IS NOT just a forum of people stating their opinions, I'd be happy to read it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying I've looked and I haven't found it.

Of course then there are guitar forums where everyone knows that Afircan is clearly inferior...

African is a good tone wood. My friend who is a tech doesn't like African and I read something about it that I didn't like I will try and find it and post a link.

[dcmey]

American Mahogany
Name American Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla)
Type Hardwood.
Other Names Also known as Honduras mahogany, true mahogany, genuine mahogany, bigleaf mahogany, cao, caoba, cobano, acajou, and aguano.
Sources Grows from southern Mexico to Brazil.
Appearance Generally straight grained, but sometimes roey, wavy, or curly, with a fine to coarse, uniform texture. Pale pink to dark reddish brown heartwood and yellowish white sapwood.
Physical Props Variable, but generally moderate weight, hardness, and strength. Low stiffness and shock resistance. Very good stability and decay resistance. Moderate steam bending rating.
Working Props Excellent working properties, including cutting, turning, shaping, sanding, and gluing. Finishes easily with a variety of finishes, although filling may be required for ultimate smoothness.
Uses Renowned for high-class cabinetry and furniture. Also used for paneling, turnery, carving, patterns, dies, model making, veneers, flooring, boat building, and musical instruments.

[dcmey]

African Mahogany
Name African Mahogany (Khaya spp.)
Type Hardwood.
Other Names Also known as akuk, bandoro, benin mahogany, degema, lagos wood, acajou, khaya, Nigerian mahogany, Ivory Coast mahogany, and Gold Coast mahogany.
Sources Grows throughout West Africa.
Appearance Interlocked or straight grain, often with a ribbon figure, and a moderately coarse texture. Creamy-white sapwood and reddish brown heartwood, often with a purple cast.
Physical Props Moderately heavy and hard with medium bending and crushing strength, low stiffness and shock resistance, moderate decay resistance, and good stability in use. Poor steam bending rating.
Working Props Works fairly easily although interlocked, woolly grain can be troublesome. Glues, nails, and screws satisfactorily. Stains and polishes to an excellent finish.
Uses Used for furniture, cabinetry, high class joinery, interior trim, boat building, vehicle bodies, paneling, plywood, and decorative veneers.
Comments Generally cheaper and more abundant than American mahogany

[dcmey]

I found some unbiased reviews of both Honduras, and African Mahogany. My take is that the Honduras is easier to work with than the African. It's a better mahogany in my opinion.

[kec]

Those look like pretty good properties to me dcmey. From a woodworking standpoint, maybe it does have it's problems, but who cares once the guitar is done As long as it doesn't split or warp, which is why I mentioned the way the wood is dried. You can take the best wood and incorrectly dry it and will end up with a crappy guitar.

[Kuroyama]

Marshall MG...whatever. The point is that after buying a great Gibson Les Paul, you could still buy a nice practice amp and have money left over.

Or you could buy a great Epiphone.

Seems like that statement should be reversed doesnt it?

[WhippingPost]

I think that what Kuroyama is getting at (for those that may have missed it) is that, bang-for-buck, the Gibson winds up being the better deal. I'm sure everyone in this thread will agree that for playing experience, "best" is strictly a matter of personal taste. If you took two people to play the exact same pair of guitars, you would most likely come up with two different opinions on which one was the best.

The only person that can decide which guitar is best suited to the duties at hand is the person making the purchase. Anyone who sits down and takes the time to play and get comfortable with a few of each specimen will eventually find that they favor one model over the other. All that means is that it is the better guitar for that person.

[Hemani Co]

Don't get Gibson assuming you are going to witness a flawless piece guitar building. I have a Standard Gibson and I can name so many things that are wrong with it in terms craftmenship. But the reason I bought it is when you plug it in and play. The sound, playability and response is phenomenal. Everything you play or do is reflected in the sound, like an extension of your arm almost. That's why people pay considerable amount of money to get their hands on one.

[dcmey]

Originally Posted by WhippingPost

I think that what Kuroyama is getting at (for those that may have missed it) is that, bang-for-buck, the Gibson winds up being the better deal. I'm sure everyone in this thread will agree that for playing experience, "best" is strictly a matter of personal taste. If you took two people to play the exact same pair of guitars, you would most likely come up with two different opinions on which one was the best.

The only person that can decide which guitar is best suited to the duties at hand is the person making the purchase. Anyone who sits down and takes the time to play and get comfortable with a few of each specimen will eventually find that they favor one model over the other. All that means is that it is the better guitar for that person.

I agree 100%

[dcmey]

Originally Posted by kec

Really?!? Both of those types of mahogany are used by some acoustic guitar builders and are very similar tone-wise. The major difference is the color and they way it machines. The honduras has a better natural color and machines (supposedly) better, but the weight is very close to the african. But, then again, weight varies within the species itself. So, who know... My brain hurts...

I'd be more concerned with the way the wood is dried. Slow kiln dried is supposed to be superior to anything else.

I know that Gibson uses slow kiln drying. They probably do at that Japanese place where the elitists are made.

[noslen1968]

I really like my VM, but it is my first (!) Gibson. I say buy whatever you first think of when you consider playing guitar - I mean, if there were a VM and an Elitist sitting next to each other, which one would you reach for first? A good lesson to be learned is to buy what you really want (within reason $$) or you'll just end up taking a loss on it in the future.

[Termanator7]

Originally Posted by Kuroyama

Marshall MG...whatever. The point is that after buying a great Gibson Les Paul, you could still buy a nice practice amp and have money left over.

Or you could buy a great Epiphone.

Seems like that statement should be reversed doesnt it?

Yeah, flip that around and it should make sense

[savage118]

Originally Posted by noslen1968

I really like my VM, but it is my first (!) Gibson. I say buy whatever you first think of when you consider playing guitar - I mean, if there were a VM and an Elitist sitting next to each other, which one would you reach for first? A good lesson to be learned is to buy what you really want (within reason $$) or you'll just end up taking a loss on it in the future.

1. I would grab the Elitist. To me the VM is settling. They look like an old kitchen chair. Just my opinion.

2. Good point get the one you want so you don't settle now, only to get the one you really wanted later. Leaving a guitar in the corner, or at a 25% loss on Ebay 6 months from now. Buyers remorse is the worst!

[thepacifist20130]

It also depends on how exactly you want to use it
If you plan to gig, the VM doesnt have the stage presence, the elitist does....and nobody would be able to tell the difference in finish between an elitist and a non-vm lp.........

Tonewise, concerning the fact that gibson has better pickups, and equal(if not better) tonality in terms of wood, for a studio musician, the VM would be better value for money.

I agree to the fact that the logo on the headstock doesnt count anymore than the snob-value, which is purely subjective. but then, apart from "why not an elitist?", i would also ask "why not a gibson vm?". lets defend gibson for a change against the epi, shall we?? The sound quality is much better, and thats the most important aspect of a musical instrument. 2 places where an LPVM lacks against the epi is a)finish 2)out-of-the-box setup. You could get a luthier to work on it for an extra 50$, and it would still be cheaper(albeit not much) than the epi.

I never buy a guitar with a view to sell it soon. in that respect, you have to take the total cost of ownership....which includes upgrades in epi in terms of the pickups etc...

I've read reviews that the tuning issue with the gibby tuners is not so much with the tuners as it is with the strings not stretching properly. Ppl buy a new guitar, get fresh strings and 2 days later post that the guitar doesnt stay in tune.....it wont, until the strings stretch.

the nitro finish on the guitar allows the guitar to age gracefully. and u dont need to be a tone purist to hear that. strum a nitro-finished and a poly-finished guitar side-by-side....the nitro one resonates and provides more "acoustic" sound than a poly covered one. (I never said an epi vs a gibson sound, just referring to the finish here).

Last word, play both the things, and play a ton of them.....by that time, you will know what to buy.

[hbucker]

Originally Posted by thepacifist20130

Last word, play both the things, and play a ton of them.....by that time, you will know what to buy.

I find myself agreeing with some of your comments and disagreeing others. Yet I agree with your last statement 100%.

[Kuroyama]

I have to agree with Pacifist there. If you were planning to gig, the only gig I can see the Vm pulling off is some MTV unplugged show with the obviously plugged in VM being played by some guy in the background. Onstage... the VM would be tantamount to holding furniture.

In all honesty that was probably part of my decision to buy it.I had less confidence at the time in my playing ability and wanted peope NOT to pay attention to the guitar. I have played in one bar a couple of times and the audience didnt really pick up on it. The musicians ALL went nuts for it though.

If you plan to gig you might wanna go for the red metal flake guitar. No slam intended. Someone recently posted pix of a red metal flake Gibson Deluxe that looked like it had a matching 50s Cadillac to go with it. Though almost to a man everyone disliked the color (including its owner) EVERYONE agreed that it would be hard to find a better stage guitar.

So, we come back to... what do YOU want?

[overdriver]

Originally Posted by thepacifist20130

It also depends on how exactly you want to use it
If you plan to gig, the VM doesnt have the stage presence, the elitist does....and nobody would be able to tell the difference in finish between an elitist and a non-vm lp.........

Tonewise, concerning the fact that gibson has better pickups, and equal(if not better) tonality in terms of wood, for a studio musician, the VM would be better value for money.

I agree to the fact that the logo on the headstock doesnt count anymore than the snob-value, which is purely subjective. but then, apart from "why not an elitist?", i would also ask "why not a gibson vm?". lets defend gibson for a change against the epi, shall we?? The sound quality is much better, and thats the most important aspect of a musical instrument. 2 places where an LPVM lacks against the epi is a)finish 2)out-of-the-box setup. You could get a luthier to work on it for an extra 50$, and it would still be cheaper(albeit not much) than the epi.

I never buy a guitar with a view to sell it soon. in that respect, you have to take the total cost of ownership....which includes upgrades in epi in terms of the pickups etc...

I've read reviews that the tuning issue with the gibby tuners is not so much with the tuners as it is with the strings not stretching properly. Ppl buy a new guitar, get fresh strings and 2 days later post that the guitar doesnt stay in tune.....it wont, until the strings stretch.

the nitro finish on the guitar allows the guitar to age gracefully. and u dont need to be a tone purist to hear that. strum a nitro-finished and a poly-finished guitar side-by-side....the nitro one resonates and provides more "acoustic" sound than a poly covered one. (I never said an epi vs a gibson sound, just referring to the finish here).

Last word, play both the things, and play a ton of them.....by that time, you will know what to buy.

Vms do not sound better than Elitists, per say WTF an the VM pick pickup are not made better than the Elitist! the Elitist use Gibson pick ups for goodness sakes man! People change out their Gibson pick ups to.
Nitro vs poly is crap IMO does not mean one guitar will resonate better than another. Lots of dead nitro finished guitar in the world.
Nothing wrong with getting a Gibson VM but IMO the Elitist is a nicer guitar.

[EPIGOLDTOP]

hey people...thought i would add my 2 cents about the epiphone elitists.....i own a goldtop...got it new in 2007.....absolutely gorgeous.....and the sound and playability were nicer than the