A word on guitar capacitors

[TWANG]

Anyone ever read what Terry Downs @ TDPRI wrote about caps? Here's a post from him...
----------

I always dread getting into this, but here goes.

The capacitor thing IS A MYTH. I could write a book on it, but I'll only summarize here.

1. Capacitor Doesn’t Contribute Much - Probably most significant misunderstanding about the tone network is that the capacitor is not a significant part of the circuit until you are near the most counterclockwise (CCW) range of the pot. Here's why. A resonance occurs between the inductance of the pickup and the capacitance of the pickup/cable/amp. It generally occurs in the treble region, especially on Teles with single coils. Check the plot below.

I believe I did this PSPICE simulation with a Tele bridge pickup, 500K pots, 10ft cable, and a Fender Twin input impedance. This family of curves is the frequency response of the guitar at the various 10 dial positions of the tone pot. Notice each curve has the dial position/resistance of the audio taper tone pot. Notice the resonance hump at the high dial positions is at about 3.4kHz. That's the Tele treble most of us love. With the tone pot at max, the resistance of the pot is 442kohms (this comes from actual test data I took on a 500K Alpha pot), well within the 20% tolerance. The reactance of a 0.05µF capacitor at above a few hundred Hertz is practically zero. It is only a few kohms down at 100Hz. So, the capacitor is just a low impedance coupling cap to a variable resistor. As you turn the pot down, the load that the pickup sees is a lower resistance. This damps out the resonance. The resistive load of the tone pot as it is turned down is a RESONANCE KILLER. Notice it doesn’t shift the resonance frequency. Guess what, it takes capacitance to do that!!
As the tone pot approaches max CCW, the tone network is now purely capacitive and the resonance is back, but now at 300Hz (dial at zero).

If you use the tone pot at max CCW, then the capacitor makes a big difference. It decides where that low frequency resonance occurs. If you only turn down the tone pot slightly to lets say to remove the "icepick", then the pot is what's accomplishing that for you.

Prove it to yourself. If you slightly roll off highs with a tone pot, open your control cavity and use a clip lead and SHORT OUT YOUR TONE CAP. You won't be able to hear much difference in the tone pot's operation until it is turned down fairly low. At max CCW of course the signal is shunted to ground and nothing comes out.

2. Capacitor Types - As mentioned earlier with the twinkie analogy, the amplitude and frequency range of a guitar signal poses no challenge for any capacitor (except for a polarized cap). One of the reasons why ceramics get a bad rap is because many of the Fenders come with a the 503Z.

This a 0.05µF ceramic that has a tolerance of -20% to +80%. The actual capacitance of this part could be as high as 0.09µF !!! They are used because they are cheap. If you like using your tone control near max CCW, and you change that cap out with a tighter tolerance 0.05µF, you will hear a difference. It's only the capacitance value that matters, and that only matters in the lower fourth of the tone pot's range.

3. Psychoacoustic effects - Anyone that cares about what something sounds like will be a tinkerer. I have chased my tail on many things. It is easy to convince your mind that a changed part will affect the sound of something. It is only natural and normal. I'd venture to say that some of the folks that think they can hear the difference in a particular capacitor type (capacitance value being the same) are of a breed of folks that are sensitive to various changes in the acoustic environment and have better senses than I do. I've never understood how anyone could have perfect pitch, but they exist. So, I have no disrespect to any audiophile. I'm just stating the engineering facts.

4. Amplifer Impedance - This isn't mentioned much, but the amplifier input impedance is just like having another tone pot in parallel, although it has no series capacitor. That input impedance is also a resonance KILLER. Also the capacitance of the amp input and cable will shift the resonance. Oh yes, if there is a capacitor on the input of an amplifier, why isn't it paper in oil too?!?!?!?!?

5. Looks Good Under the Hood - If you like the looks of a $60 cap for your vintage vibe, then go for it.

Capacitor Upgrades - Myth? - Telecaster Guitar Forum

[brianugly]

Very interesting. What is your take on it twang?

[sasquatch]

If it ain't broken then it ain't gotta be fixed!

[mrpesca]

May not make a difference in a single coil Telecaster but I swear there is a difference in a Les Paul. Jonsey may have something to say about this.

[TWANG]

You know, I do amps and guitars.


When I first started modding amps I took special interest in the Mallory/Sprague/Sozo
choices.
One problem is.. caps in amps have to be broken in.. just like the whole circuit will sound better if you just leave a new amp on for hours, the caps will sound spikey and even harsh at first. Broken in, you do notice a difference.

Even when you play a modded vj for twenty minutes, if you pay attention you notice it's just.. better!

You'd feel differently after several hundred volts too, I bet.


Sozo capacitors take 100 hours to burn in!

But with guitars. there's not enough voltage in there to burn anything, so they are pretty much going to sound the same no matter how long you play.

I tried mallory caps in guitars.. and I chose spragues in the end.
I jokingly say, I just like orange! But I really did feel the mallorys were warmer, and the
spragues were quicker.. more responsive to attack.
I never tried Sozos in there as they are all 600V caps.. too high, 35v would do easily!, and then there's that admonition from the manu about burn in time.

I tried some OIP caps.. and I swear, I thought I heard a better voice!
It 'seemed' to me the caps gave as quick a response to attack, yet were more..
organnic in that response. It seemed a fuller, richer sound.. but only incrementally.

Was I just wishing?

As a friend of mine pointed out. the only way to know if that's just a myth in my head, an expectation, a hope or a dream.. is to hook two caps up to a push pull
and A/B them live in real time.
there'd be no mistaking then.

Until I have time to do that, I'm going to say this.
I believe there's a difference. I believe it's a small difference.
I believe small differences can be big ones to 'YOU'.

some OIP caps are 20.00.
I do not believe that they are 18.00 better than 2.00 Spragues.
I use Spragues, except in my lp where I used Mallorys, cause the are yellow.

I'd be happy with either of those, for the money, and I feel absolutley sure that 99% of people listening couldn't tell me what kind of caps I have in there.

I also want to say, I believe MOJO (not the company, *but a tip of the hat to Jonesy!*,
but the traditional voodoo/magic defined word), is important and valid.
Take all the smiles you can get. If a placebo makes you feel better, eat that sugar pill and smile smile smile.
We ALL have our mojo.. sure we try, esp. in here, to be all exact and perfect. But who is?
Who has, truly, the best guitar?
So 'best' he can hand it to anyone else and they'd agree?
And what in the end would make it 'best'?

surely the color would count! The shape, the weight, the balance, .... and how can any of those things be 'best'?

Maybe even the wear and tear!

So.. I recommend Spragues.. Mallorys.. and if you want a little MOJO.. go for it.
It aint gonna hurt!
Just don't brag it up too much. Try to make your point satisfaction and not
superiority, and you'll spread your smile..
What could be better for a musician to do?

TWANG

[Atomic]

dude if you really want to freak everyone out, tell them what happens when you take that same bypass lead and coil it tightly around a ferrite.

[TeleDog]

It may not make much of a difference from the physics point of view, but hey, it's the mojo, it's there, nobody can deny that!

[b-squared]

Next thing you know that same dude will start saying that the pickguard doesn't contribute to tone...pfffft. What the heck doe HE know?



BB

[chasenblues]

But will they help me get the "Slash Tone"....

[randelli]

I top wrap all of my caps!

[leftyguitarman]

I can't tell a difference between the $2 orange capacitors (whatever they may be) that I got from my local guitar repair store and the PIO Vitamin Q I got from TWANG. (I'm not saying TWANG didn't sell me a good product). I just can't hear a difference. And when I had ceramic caps in my Strat and put the orange ones in, I did notice a slight, and I mean slight difference. I didn't notice a difference when I put the PIO ones in. I think the whole hype about caps is just that... hype.

[TWANG]

Lefty. that's what I mean.. is me me or is it memorex?
Only an A/B test would really tell.. and I was just thinking last night..

what if I hooked up two 500 push pulls to a box.
alligator clips coming out so you could remove control plate.. clip them directly to the pup lead and ground.
bypassing your guitars controls.. then run a cable out of the box, to an amp.

push in.. tone cap is sprague..
pull out.. tone cape is OIP..

I was thinking about doing this, and then sending it around.. each person who got it would promise to send it to the next person.. and everyone who wanted to could try the caps out and compare.
the last guy would send it back to me.

but who the heck would even be willing to pay the postage!
so.. I guess that tells you something about how much interest or concern there really is on this.
I might do it just for myself.
And if I ever get around to figuring out how to do clips..
TWANG

[Fuelish]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

If it ain't broken then it ain't gotta be fixed!

I thought it was more like "If it ain't broken, then it can stand some tinkerin' ... "
... yes ???

[AngryHatter]

jonesy had "Explorer" kits so you can swap caps with ease - to test them out.
Maybe you should give it a try?

[opt1c8n]

I am a skeptic and I don't believe in hype, but in my experience caps definitely make a difference. Not necessarily in tone or eq, but in feel and texture.. something that you really describe or capture in a recording. Whether it is an improvement or not is for you to decide.. but the difference is definitely not in your head.

[bigdaddy]

But will they help me get the "Slash Tone"....

...or a free guitar?

[5F6-A]

caps matter... you might not hear it but others can. Mind you, if you can't hear the difference you won't be tweaking the knob much anyaway....

[TWANG]

I don't think I have any problem with hearing. And given the amount of guitars I own as well as those I've built I think I could tell if there was dramatic difference.
I still think there is difference, but how much, and how much it's worth..
up to each.
TWANG

[Christmas]

Originally Posted by 5F6-A

caps matter... you might not hear it but others can. Mind you, if you can't hear the difference you won't be tweaking the knob much anyaway....

You're confusing the tone knob (a resistor) with the cap (a cap). Get it straight.

[5F6-A]

Originally Posted by Christmas

You're confusing the tone knob (a resistor) with the cap (a cap). Get it straight.

ermmm... I don't think I am. If you'd care to elaborate a bit....

[TWANG]

I put a Vitamin Q .022 in a twin p90 guitar today.
I'm gonna try this a/b with my sheraton twin p90 with sprague.
I think I already feel something.. hear something.. different about the way it turns up and down.
both have cts pots. but the VQ seems to be a more gradual and overall smoother
response esp. from 0 up.
part of that is complicated. since the guitar I put this in has a linear pot for tone.
while mine has audio for tone.
har! more problems!

[snaredrum]

bullspit. changing caps makes an AUDIBLE difference.

[jonesy]

3 words, Paper In Oil....Just installed a pair of Sprague .01 Vitamin Q's in "Alice"my SG the other night and they are awesome IMO. They sound good from 10-0, warm and crisp, plenty of room on the tone dials without getting muddy, nice sparkle, plenty of tight mids.

Some people can hear the difference between stock caps and a good pair of paper in oil and some can't, of course some people cant hear when their guitar is out of tune either.

[TWANG]

I've thought I've heard something everytime I use them.
they always seem to have a different/better curve as you use the tone knob.
But I've never directly A/B'd the things.

This guitar I just put the VitaminQ in.. has p90s which two of my own guitars have..
and it just seems clear to me there is a difference in these caps.

I think I'll slap a sprague in there.. since I have a little more work to do anyway..
and see if I'm truly hearing and feeling the difference I think I am.

Sometimes I have doubts.. but it also seems odd that everytime I use one, I think I hear a difference.

the review I posted above states:

" Oh yes, if there is a capacitor on the input of an amplifier, why isn't it paper in oil too?!?!?!?!? "

because they eventually leak, for one thing. Though some do use them.

he also says:

"resonance occurs between the inductance of the pickup and the capacitance of the pickup/cable/amp. It generally occurs in the treble region, "
"near the most counterclockwise (CCW) range of the pot."

well.. I seem to be hearing a definate effect from 0 to about 5.. that is, it's more dramatic there and seems to be a really smooth and more gradual, fine tuneable pot now.
that's not small beans if you are, like me, a person who uses that tone pot.

also:

"If you only turn down the tone pot slightly to lets say to remove the "icepick", then the pot is what's accomplishing that for you. "

well in that case.. an oip if it has the effect I think it has, and since everyone who has any cap must have it on a pot.. it must mean the cap makes a difference where it CAN make a difference.

He also mentions tolerance, in regard to fenders use of wide tolerance ceramic chip caps,
so of course we know that swapping to a higher quality cap with a smaller tolerance is, by his own admonition, a good thing.

It is true that guitars don't have enough voltage running through them to even slightly
affect cap rated at a hundred times greater.. on the other hand NOBODY recommends you stick a 600Volt cap in there. why?
If voltage has no effect, why wouldn't a 600V cap be as good as a 35V or a 200V?

I know Sozo caps 'form', with use. Recommending 100hours of run time in an amplifier, the manu. and qualified expert people I know, claim to hear a difference, and an improvement.
I suppose that any component 'burned in' will sound a bit different in some small way.
You may not be able to hear it, however.

manufacturers claims for thier caps.. and repeated reports by technicians and engineers which agree to some degree or other, shouldn't be overlooked.

to me, it comes down to the cost and the change itself.
Is it worth the difference?
Can the difference be had by other means?
(250K pot.. 300K pot.. 500K pot.. audio taper, linear taper.. IOW what exact part of the difference is what you are looking for or appreciate.. the tone caps works with the tone pot)
Is it a particular individuals taste--after all, if you'd made your hit records with a stock 54 tele... you probably wont be swapping out the caps?

But 'absolutely the best' seems to me still to be entirely up the person choosing.

"I like".. thats the phrase that ends the story.
And that means it's always up to YOU.

TWANG

[Dolebludger]

This is an interesting subject about which I know little. The caps are part of the guitar's volume controls, right? If this is correct, I really have not used them in 50 years of playing, except to get the balance I want between bridge and neck pups. And then, one volume pot is usually on "10" and the other is rolled off just a bit, depending on whether I want a more mellow or more harsh tone. I've never been a fan of "passive" tone controls of any type. My favorite amp (so far) is a Mesa, and I criticize it for having passive and interactive tone controls, which I need to offset with active tone control devices in my rack. But without those active devices, I must confess that my little Epi 56 Goldtop P90 would sound like crap -- as would my other guitars.

For tone, I'm a big fan of active tone control devices. I actually built some from plans about 25 years ago that were great, except that they don't work now and I have lost the plans! One of them would boost or cut out the "ice pick treble" as well as add a "breathy" bass that did not subtract from the mids or treble. Another acted as a "stationary wah" which, when dialed in correctly, would "pinch down" the tone and add greatly to the sustain. Until I can figure out how to revive these devices, I'll have to make do with the passive controls on the guitars and the Mesa amp, along with a 10 band graphic EQ and a BBE Sonic Maximizer. But those ain't shabby.

Bottom line, my experience has been that we can't expect much in the way of "bells and whistles" from passive tone controls, UNLESS they are poorly built and poorly suited for individual musicians. As Epi has such poor quality control, that is where suppliers like Jonesy are very valuable. Although the volume pots and caps in my Epi (and all my guitars) do pretty much what I want them to do, I know that this is not true of all Epi (and other) guitars -- and their players. In fact, these days, quality control problems with guitars are not confined to Epis, unfortunately. And if I had a problem with the passive controls on my guitars, I would want it fixed.

IMHO, the elusive "tone in our heads" is not to be found in any form of passive volume or tone control. It's probably not to be found anywhere, but we can come closer with active tone control devices, IMHO.

[TWANG]

the caps are connected to the tone control.
sometimes a cap is connected to the volume control.. that's called a treble bleed.
It allows treble to pass through when you turn down the volume, keeping the same sound at different volume levels.

there's certainly a lot to be said for active controls.
And there's certainly an argument for vintage sounds.. most of which are from guitars without same.
On the other hand. they all ran through something!
TWANG

[brianugly]

**Edit** --Mod

Nice

[bigdaddy]

Yep, it's still the epiphone sub-forum, good for at least one train wreck per day...

[PINKBITS]

Good Lord.

[Sin Nombre]

Originally Posted by bigdaddy

Yep, it's still the epiphone sub-forum, good for at least one train wreck per day...

Not really a train wreck, just something the thread dragged in.