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Unread 07-28-2013, 08:37 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybermgk View Post
Oddly, you don't mention here, about the "Damned volume knob was crooked" on your new Indo PTP, like youthing did here NGD Epi Standard PTP
Well I'll use this quote since it's much shorter in length but I'll try my best to answer both of your posts.

The other day I was at a small local music store the carries mainly $1000 and less guitars, amps, drums, etc... The electric guitar selection is near 60 or so and are your standard brands Fender, Epiphone, Ibanez etc... Of the 20 or so Epiphones, only 7 were Les Paul Standard Plus Top Pros. Being on a budget, the PTPs were my target guitars.

Two of the PTPs were Honey Burst, two Vintage Sunburst, two were Transparent Blue and one Heritage Cherry Sunburst. I'll leave the percentages to you as I don't care in the least. I went looking for a new guitar not a lesson in statistics.

Though I'm sure it is a character flaw, I find myself attracted to the beauty of an instrument. If it trips my trigger, I pick it up. Is that wierd professor Cybermgk? I want visual perfection. Once I find what looks the be perfect, I go through the process of playing the instrument. Anyway one of the Honey Bursts had chewed up binding on the high E side of the fret board, rough frets (grainy feeling) and not to mention the fret board was very light in color. I can only describe it as looking like a razor blade was dragged the fret board legnth where the rosewood and binding meet. No go.

I prefer very dark boards, ebony being my favorite, but isn't offered.

The second Honey Burst's back was actually crooked. I feel the grain should run the same direction as the neck. Darker board and rough frets. No go.

Vintage Burst one had runs in the clear near the toggle switch. No go.

Number two had two obviously crooked tuning pegs. E and A if you must know for your science project. Again, no go.

Not a fan of blue. Beautiful dark boards and no outwardly obvious flaws. I didn't even pick them up.

Now the Heritage Cherry that I purchased had a beautiful dark board, beautiful cap and backside grain. The only obvious flaw I could find was the crooked volume knob, grainy frets and dirty strings (easy fixes HAHA).

AFTER I purchased my guitar I saw the Indo sticker on the back of the headstock. I thought of this and the many other similar threads. For shits and giggles, not in the name of world peace, I looked at the others (exception being the two blue I didn't touch) and holy shit CHINA.

JUST FOR YOU AND YOUR QUEST FOR A PULITZER, I WILL GO TO THE SHOP TOMORROW AND FIND THE ORIGIN OF THE BLUEBURSTS BECAUSE I VALUE YOUR OPINION OF MY NON-SCIENTIFIC APPROACH TO AGREEING THERE MAY BE SOMETHING TO THIS INDO/CHINESE QUALITY THREAD STARTING SHIT.

Now if this doesn't satisify you, we aren't that far apart. I'd love a statistics lesson.
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Unread 07-28-2013, 08:53 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Originally Posted by shupe13 View Post
Now if this doesn't satisify you, we aren't that far apart. I'd love a statistics lesson.
Of course I mean while shopping for new Epiphones.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 02:45 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Originally Posted by shupe13 View Post
JUST FOR YOU AND YOUR QUEST FOR A PULITZER, I WILL GO TO THE SHOP TOMORROW AND FIND THE ORIGIN OF THE BLUEBURSTS BECAUSE I VALUE YOUR OPINION OF MY NON-SCIENTIFIC APPROACH TO AGREEING THERE MAY BE SOMETHING TO THIS INDO/CHINESE QUALITY THREAD STARTING SHIT.

Now if this doesn't satisify you, we aren't that far apart. I'd love a statistics lesson.


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Unread 07-30-2013, 06:30 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Well there was one Blueburst left. No sticker. I didn't pick it up or spend a second inspecting it. I could have jotted down the serial but I didn't. My previous reply felt good for a moment but only for a moment. Truth is I didn't nor do I now care who built what. I just want the best for my money.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 08:24 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Originally Posted by shupe13 View Post
Well I'll use this quote since it's much shorter in length but I'll try my best to answer both of your posts.

The other day I was at a small local music store the carries mainly $1000 and less guitars, amps, drums, etc.............. .
Regarding this post (reduced for brevity, it's entirety is above).

Snarkiness and anger aside, your entire post adds to my contention that their is no real, physical proof that Indo made Epiphones are superior to Chinese built.

Your Indo built PTP that you bought had as many flaws, by your own admission as each of the Chinese ones you personally examined closely. Your own admission had it with damaged pots and grainy frets.

Lightness of the fretboard is a personal preference of yours, not a flaw or QC or build issue. As is the back grain, not in line with neck, really. Thats a preference, not a flaw, but we'll keep the non parallel back grain as a 'flaw'.

So, of the PTPs you examined, you have

1. Chinese HB1 - Damaged binding (that may have happened in store), grainy frets
2. Chinese HB2 - Grainy frets, non parallel back grain
3. Chinese VB1 - Clearcoat runs
4. Chinese VB2 - Crooked Tuning pegs
5. Chinese Blue1 - No flaws
6. Chinese BLue2 - No Flaws

1. Indonesian HC - Grainy Frets, crooked pots/knobs

Take an OBJECTIVE look above. Objectively, one sees the Indonesian made guitar you bought, isn't any less, or more flawed than the Chinese ones at that store. This by your own admission, and your own inspections.

In fact, if closer inspection of the 2 blue ones show they indeed have no flaws, then in reality, at that store 100% of Indonesian PTPs had flaws, compared to 67% of Chinese made ones. But, 1 is far from sufficient sample size.

In fact, it is simply scientific and logical fact, that NONE of us are in a position to make any kind of definitive statment about the comparitive quality from each factory. That is, not until we can objectively look at a sufficiently large enough sample size (i.e. enough guitars) from both factory. Sorry, NOONE is, or has been in a position to do such (that has posted in this thread).

Too often, this is how Internet 'Facts' get started. People make definitive statments, based off of nothing really, at best made from a subjective viewpoint. It gets repeated, and before you know it, it becomes 'Fact'.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 08:43 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybermgk View Post
............
In fact, it is simply scientific and logical fact, that NONE of us are in a position to make any kind of definitive statment about the comparitive quality from each factory. That is, not until we can objectively look at a sufficiently large enough sample size (i.e. enough guitars) from both factory. Sorry, NOONE is, or has been in a position to do such (that has posted in this thread).

Too often, this is how Internet 'Facts' get started. People make definitive statments, based off of nothing really, at best made from a subjective viewpoint. It gets repeated, and before you know it, it becomes 'Fact'.
C'mon,

it is the time to start some new interwebz myths....

I feel it is.....

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Unread 07-30-2013, 09:26 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

I love this thread but... what on earth is the red thingie and the green thingie?
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Unread 07-30-2013, 09:59 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

I've only ever had a few Epiphones, but I manages to get an interesting sampling in the process. Here's what I've had, where they were made, and what I thought:

LP 100, Indonesia, excellent in every way

LP bass, China, excellent in every way but design (IMO. good sound, but uncomfortable)

LP Standard, China, excellent in every way except the broken headstock it came with (used) that I fixed. No problem.

SG Custom, Korea, Excellent in every way except that the neck was too flexible for my big Ham-Fists. ('61 style neck joint is known to be less stable)

None of these guitars had any shortcomings related to fit-n-finish. All were well worth the asking prices.

I am of the opinion that the country of origin is utterly irrelevant.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 10:10 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybermgk View Post

1. Chinese HB1 - Damaged binding (that may have happened in store), grainy frets
2. Chinese HB2 - Grainy frets, non parallel back grain
3. Chinese VB1 - Clearcoat runs
4. Chinese VB2 - Crooked Tuning pegs
5. Chinese Blue1 - No flaws
6. Chinese BLue2 - No Flaws

How did you come to conclude the blue Epis were Chinese and flawless? Was it a QUANTITATIVE CONCLUSION OR A CUMULATIVE IMPRESSION?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to conclude the blue guitars are Chinese based on their color or is it statistically impossible to have only one Indo Epi in stock?

Are you projecting they are Chinese and flawless because it helps you prove a point? IT IS HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY TO DO SO.

If they were both Indo and flawed, you might be onto something. Both blue guitars have to be removed from your equation now. Try again.

I really want to believe you are as smart as you project in your posts.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 10:14 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Quote:
Originally Posted by truckermde View Post
I've only ever had a few Epiphones, but I manages to get an interesting sampling in the process. Here's what I've had, where they were made, and what I thought:

LP 100, Indonesia, excellent in every way

LP bass, China, excellent in every way but design (IMO. good sound, but uncomfortable)

LP Standard, China, excellent in every way except the broken headstock it came with (used) that I fixed. No problem.

SG Custom, Korea, Excellent in every way except that the neck was too flexible for my big Ham-Fists. ('61 style neck joint is known to be less stable)

None of these guitars had any shortcomings related to fit-n-finish. All were well worth the asking prices.

I am of the opinion that the country of origin is utterly irrelevant.
I agree. I'm only in it for the free education now. Statistics 101.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 10:19 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Quote:
Originally Posted by cybermgk View Post
Regarding this post (reduced for brevity, it's entirety is above).

Snarkiness and anger aside, your entire post adds to my contention that their is no real, physical proof that Indo made Epiphones are superior to Chinese built.

Your Indo built PTP that you bought had as many flaws, by your own admission as each of the Chinese ones you personally examined closely. Your own admission had it with damaged pots and grainy frets.

Lightness of the fretboard is a personal preference of yours, not a flaw or QC or build issue. As is the back grain, not in line with neck, really. Thats a preference, not a flaw, but we'll keep the non parallel back grain as a 'flaw'.

So, of the PTPs you examined, you have

1. Chinese HB1 - Damaged binding (that may have happened in store), grainy frets
2. Chinese HB2 - Grainy frets, non parallel back grain
3. Chinese VB1 - Clearcoat runs
4. Chinese VB2 - Crooked Tuning pegs
5. Chinese Blue1 - No flaws
6. Chinese BLue2 - No Flaws

1. Indonesian HC - Grainy Frets, crooked pots/knobs

Take an OBJECTIVE look above. Objectively, one sees the Indonesian made guitar you bought, isn't any less, or more flawed than the Chinese ones at that store. This by your own admission, and your own inspections.

In fact, if closer inspection of the 2 blue ones show they indeed have no flaws, then in reality, at that store 100% of Indonesian PTPs had flaws, compared to 67% of Chinese made ones. But, 1 is far from sufficient sample size.

In fact, it is simply scientific and logical fact, that NONE of us are in a position to make any kind of definitive statment about the comparitive quality from each factory. That is, not until we can objectively look at a sufficiently large enough sample size (i.e. enough guitars) from both factory. Sorry, NOONE is, or has been in a position to do such (that has posted in this thread).

Too often, this is how Internet 'Facts' get started. People make definitive statments, based off of nothing really, at best made from a subjective viewpoint. It gets repeated, and before you know it, it becomes 'Fact'.
Well all I can say is I am picky as *uck when it comes to finish issues. I prefer dark fretboards. I prefer symmetry on the finish of a guitar(flame top...buttons etc. I prefer nice clean tape lines. I prefer the most flamed highly figured maple tops I can find. I prefer the screws that hold the plastic parts on the guitar to be inserted nice and straight(not on an angle like I have seen on CM Epi's).

I can appreciate your scientific court of law approach Mr. Matlock but as someone with borderline OCD I can without a doubt say the QC on Indo Epi's is overall better.

Have you even held one in your hands? When I bought my last one the guy opened the box...tore open the plastic and I saw the dark INDO fretboard I knew righ away the rest of the guitar would be perfect as well. That's how confident I feel about the QC on these. Guitar to guitar the INDO QC is better.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 10:19 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Some facts.....

From an interview with Jim Rosenberg

Quote:
For Epi fans who are unsure where Gibson ends and Epiphone begins, is there a cliché about Epiphone we can debunk once and for all?

I think the most misleading cliché I hear is that Epiphone is a "cheap" Gibson. To me, that's like saying Toyota is a cheap Lexus. First, the word cheap implies inferior quality. Epiphone guitars, like Toyota cars, are some of the best, most reliable products made. And I don't just say that. I know it. We diligently track and review our quality and performance. For example, we are currently at a less than 0.5% return rate. That's incredible. If our quality was not consistently great, how could we offer a lifetime warranty? Also, we interact with retailers, consumers and artists every day. Consistently, the feedback we get from them is that they cannot believe how good our instruments are. And that includes everything from fit and finish to electronics to playability. In reality, if that was not the case there is no way so many professional musicians including Zakk Wylde, Dave Navarro, Jeff Waters, Robb Flynn, Jack Casady and more would put their name on our product and proudly use our instruments. Second, Epiphone has been part of the Gibson family for 56 years now. How can there not be a shared history and similarities? But even so, Epiphone's history of and contribution to guitar design and innovation is unquestionable*. And today, we have so many unique Epiphone models and features in our lineup; from our Wildkats, Masterbilts and Swingsters to our acoustic guitar preamps, Ultra-III electronics and LockTone™ hardware. So while we do offer affordable instruments, there's nothing cheap about them. And while we are proud to be part of the Gibson family of brands, we will continue to march to the beat of our own unique 140 year heritage.
It's so sad, that sooooo many of the o,5% are here on the forum...

more of the interview here

Epiphone History

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Unread 07-30-2013, 10:51 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

I think Samick is making the Indonesian Epiphones.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 10:54 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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I think Samick is making the Indonesian Epiphones.
Yep
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Unread 07-30-2013, 11:29 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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I'm convinced now that I got a keeper....a really good one. I love it.
I suppose it never crossed your mind that your "keeper" had already been auditioned by loads of other people who rejected it as a "dog" and bought another one instead?

Maybe even, dare I say it, a Chinese made one...
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Unread 07-30-2013, 01:44 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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I suppose it never crossed your mind that your "keeper" had already been auditioned by loads of other people who rejected it as a "dog" and bought another one instead?

Maybe even, dare I say it, a Chinese made one...
Well, I don't normally walk into a guitar place and think automatically "well, no one has bought these so they must suck.: Secondly, I trust my evaluation more than theirs.....whoever they are.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 02:42 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Well, I don't normally walk into a guitar place and think automatically "well, no one has bought these so they must suck.: Secondly, I trust my evaluation more than theirs.....whoever they are.
Congratulations on your self belief. Self belief however doesn't make you guitar any better than the others that were there, it just makes you think that it was and that you found a "keeper" which of course is subjective and only your opinion.

My opinion is that the guitars would have been more or less equal and 10 different people would have chosen diferently, each claiming to have found the best!
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Unread 07-30-2013, 03:04 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Originally Posted by upl8tr View Post
Congratulations on your self belief. Self belief however doesn't make you guitar any better than the others that were there, it just makes you think that it was and that you found a "keeper" which of course is subjective and only your opinion.

My opinion is that the guitars would have been more or less equal and 10 different people would have chosen diferently, each claiming to have found the best!
What is your deal? This is two threads now you've jumped on me, apparently because I enjoy my guitars a lot. What gives man? Chill out.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 03:54 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Originally Posted by upl8tr View Post
Congratulations on your self belief. Self belief however doesn't make you guitar any better than the others that were there, it just makes you think that it was and that you found a "keeper" which of course is subjective and only your opinion.

My opinion is that the guitars would have been more or less equal and 10 different people would have chosen diferently, each claiming to have found the best!

I see you are an excellent MasturDebator and would more than likely win most forum and in person arguments. All I know is I'm very happy with my Indo Epi's as others seem to be, so that's all I really care about.

I have Chinese Epi's as well...it just seemed a little harder to find a flawless one among the lot. If "perfect" is subjective then I say enjoy your bad tape lines, paint runs and off centre flame tops. I will enjoy looking at my subjectively perfect Epi's.



.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 03:57 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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I see you are an excellent MasturDebator and would more than likely win most forum and in person arguments. All I know is I'm very happy with my Indo Epi's as others seem to be, so that's all I really care about.

I have Chinese Epi's as well...it just seemed a little harder to find a flawless one among the lot. If "perfect" is subjective than I say enjoy your bad tape lines, paint runs and off centre flame tops. I will enjoy looking at my subjectively perfect Epi's.

.
What you like is what you like....that's the bottom line. I have a rather unspectacular Epiphone Dot from about 2005 that has stock pickups, stock tuners, stock everything, and that was my favorite guitar for several years until I just got this PTP.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 04:01 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Originally Posted by fullspectrum View Post
I see you are an excellent MasturDebator and would more than likely win most forum and in person arguments. All I know is I'm very happy with my Indo Epi's as others seem to be, so that's all I really care about.

I have Chinese Epi's as well...it just seemed a little harder to find a flawless one among the lot. If "perfect" is subjective than I say enjoy your bad tape lines, paint runs and off centre flame tops. I will enjoy looking at my subjectively perfect Epi's.
.
Hey man, I have no dog in this fight. I did not intend to dis your guitar/s at all, so you can dispense with the name calling okay.

I was merely pointing out to his nibs that sweeping statements don't wash when it comes to guitars in the same price range especially when you factor in the human element that's all. I'm happy your happy with your Axes.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 04:08 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

I've got nothing constructive to add so -


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Unread 07-30-2013, 04:15 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Hey man, I have no dog in this fight. I did not intend to dis your guitar/s at all, so you can dispense with the name calling okay.
Sorry man, just having some fun...I'm thinking we should just go and play our guitars now....
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Unread 07-30-2013, 06:00 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Sorry man, just having some fun...I'm thinking we should just go and play our guitars now....
Sounds like a plan.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 06:25 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Originally Posted by paruwi View Post
Some facts.....

From an interview with Jim Rosenberg


It's so sad, that sooooo many of the o,5% are here on the forum...

more of the interview here

Epiphone History

Interesting. I think the case could be made that Epiphone guitars are made for a particular market that may not be as inclined to return an instrument as many Epiphone buyers are beginner players just testing the waters.

I also think it would be far more likely that higher end guitars would be returned more often because the buyers can be quite picky and know what they are looking for. I have bought guitars, taken them home and then realized an almost imperceptible defect. If I paid under 500$ for the guitar that may be acceptable but if I am dropping serious coin I may be inclined to return it. If I am saving my money I want what I want.

All that aside, I have an early 90's Korean made Epiphone LP which I absolutely love. It had it's defects but most are lost in the muddle of buckle rash, dings, dents and wear that only years of playing and sweat can achieve. The only stock parts that I traded out happened when something was broken due to misuse or an energetic performance.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 06:41 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Quote:
Originally Posted by FHA View Post
Interesting. I think the case could be made that Epiphone guitars are made for a particular market that may not be as inclined to return an instrument as many Epiphone buyers are beginner players just testing the waters.

I also think it would be far more likely that higher end guitars would be returned more often because the buyers can be quite picky and know what they are looking for. I have bought guitars, taken them home and then realized an almost imperceptible defect. If I paid under 500$ for the guitar that may be acceptable but if I am dropping serious coin I may be inclined to return it. If I am saving my money I want what I want.

All that aside, I have an early 90's Korean made Epiphone LP which I absolutely love. It had it's defects but most are lost in the muddle of buckle rash, dings, dents and wear that only years of playing and sweat can achieve. The only stock parts that I traded out happened when something was broken due to misuse or an energetic performance.
Be sure not all Epi-players are beginners......
and even if they are, don't they want to get what they pay for ?

Why is a guitar you paid 500$ with any faults acceptable ?

Why not send a guitar back if it is not like it should be - regardless if it's 200 or 500 or 1000 USD

People not sending it back and whining at some forums about the bad QC doing it wrong, IMO
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Unread 07-30-2013, 07:10 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

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Originally Posted by paruwi View Post
Be sure not all Epi-players are beginners......
and even if they are, don't they want to get what they pay for ?

Why is a guitar you paid 500$ with any faults acceptable ?

Why not send a guitar back if it is not like it should be - regardless if it's 200 or 500 or 1000 USD

People not sending it back and whining at some forums about the bad QC doing it wrong, IMO
I get what you're saying. I certainly did not say 'all', I said 'many' and also said 'the case could be made'. I purposely used language that was not all inclusive. Unlike this:

"Why is a guitar you paid 500$ with any faults acceptable ?"

Any faults? Are you sure? I think you and I would be hard pressed to find a production run instrument that did not have any faults. Something I may find acceptable may be deal breaker for someone else. I think it's a very personal thing that develops with time and experience. Many (notice, not all) beginning guitars players may not be as picky as someone that has been playing for years and knows exactly what they want in a guitar.

My first guitar purchase I had no idea about woods, set up, bindings, all things that now would make or break a deal for me today.

Why not send it back? How long is a piece of string? All kinds of reasons that I won't try and list here.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 07:14 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Every guitar not sent back - for whatever reason - is a 'perfectly well made' guitar in the eyes of Epiphone

How should they know and learn to do it better ?

BTW, all my guitars were without flaws, I had not bought them if they were not....
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Unread 07-30-2013, 07:29 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

I think that any product will have flaws, mostly subjective flaws, especially something like a guitar especially an Epiphone or a Gibson.

That's a fairly bold statement to say your machines are flawless. I don't doubt that to you they may be but most of the gripes I read are rather subjective and your mileage will vary.

My first Gibson standard had a little bit of overspray on the binding. You had to be pretty close to see it and it took me a few weeks to even notice. Was that enough for me to return it? Nah, I can live with that. I have a Studio that has a small lighter streak on the fretboard. It's very light and generally under my A string and again, it took weeks for me to notice. Not worth the trouble of returning. Not every flaw is a deal breaker and not every flaw is exactly a negative on the guitar. Most of these rather cosmetic issues I see more as character than anything.

In any case, like I said, I think the case can be made that guitars that are considered entry level and priced as such might be returned less than what we consider higher quality instruments.

That said, Epiphones are great products and that is a very interesting interview. Each guitars 'quality' is pretty subjective and does not always follow along with the instruments price tag or name on the headstock.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 10:15 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Re: Indonesia vs. China

Quote:
Originally Posted by shupe13 View Post
How did you come to conclude the blue Epis were Chinese and flawless? Was it a QUANTITATIVE CONCLUSION OR A CUMULATIVE IMPRESSION?
Pretty much when you said the following in your first post in this thread

Quote:
"Today I played several Standard PTPs. Many had fretboard issues. Not bad, but attention to detail issues. Finish issues, the grains on the guitar backs were not in line with the neck (crooked so to speak), etc.

I had every intent to pick up a vintage burst but none had a "perfect" look. Well I bought a beautiful heritage cherry with the most beautiful dark fretboard, the top and back were just awesome.

Long story short it was Indonesian and the rest were Chinese."
and in the post I directly responded to, you also stated

Quote:
"Two of the PTPs were Honey Burst, two Vintage Sunburst, two were Transparent Blue and one Heritage Cherry Sunburst.

and

Now the Heritage Cherry that I purchased "
So, by the process of elimination, from your own statements: If there was one Indo made PTP, and the rest were Chinese, and that one Indo was the Heritage Cherry Sunburst, then the Transparent Blue guitars were Chinese. It is fairly simple logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shupe13 View Post
If they were both Indo and flawed, you might be onto something. Both blue guitars have to be removed from your equation now. Try again.

I really want to believe you are as smart as you project in your posts.
Nothing of the sort follows. I really hope your not as obtuse, as your posts would make one believe.

Again, you made the following assertions.

1. You believe that there is something to Indo made Epis being superior to Chinese made ones.
2. You believe that from your recent PTP purchasing trip.
3. You gave that experience in #2 as 'evidence' to support #1
4. However at best, your own statements show ALL guitars were equally flawed, whether it was Chinese or Indo made, which refutes your assertion in #1. At worst, from your own statements and observations, there was a larger percentage of un flawed Chinese PTPs than Indo, which also refutes #1. Either way, your trip and experience doesn't provide any kind of 'evidence' that Indo made Epis are better than Chinese made ones.

Not sure, where your having the problem understanding these basic concepts. But, I am more than happy to explain them to you and assist your understanding.

Finally, it is basic common sense, that it is ludicrous to make patent statements about comparative quality from each factory without looking at any appreciable amount of guitars from each factory. It takes no great intellect to see that truth.

But, please feel free to continue to try and get me to lash out in a post such as you have. It will be a long wait on your part.
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