When is a fake real?

[steamboat willy]

By way of example I've got a MIJ 52 reissue Fender Telecaster except it wasn't built in Japan it was built on my dining room table (MIB - Made in Birmingham). It was built with authentic Japanese parts wherever possible and the Neck says made in Japan with a Japanese serial number. Its been valued by my local guitar shop (who know I built it myself) at $1400, but many people would say its not a proper Telecaster - at best its a Partsocaster.

Here's another story. Back in the late sixties Eric Clapton bought four second hand stratocasters from a shop in New York (mannys?), took them all apart, chose the best bits and built himself a Stratocaster. That guitar is now revered as one of the best Fenders of all time but it never came out of a Fender factory with Fender swing tags. Fender reckon its a Fender so much that they now sell copies for $20,000. Are they selling copies of a fake?

So when is a fake a fake - Can it be called genuine so long as it uses all genuine parts or does it have to come out of a manufacturers factory to be genuine?

[Sinmastah]

I fake is when it is claimed to be a genuine guitar from a certain manufacturer. If you built a telecaster, an put Fender on, and claimed to everyone it was a genuine Fender that was built in the factory it would be fake.

[VastHorizon]

Originally Posted by Sinmastah

I fake is when it is claimed to be a genuine guitar from a certain manufacturer. If you built a telecaster, an put Fender on, and claimed to everyone it was a genuine Fender that was built in the factory it would be fake.

What is the difference between a replica and a fake?

[River]

Originally Posted by steamboat willy

So when is a fake a fake - Can it be called genuine so long as it uses all genuine parts or does it have to come out of a manufacturers factory to be genuine?

A product is a fake if the manufacturer is not the holder of the trademark. Period.

[steamboat willy]

So, are we saying then that Eric Clapton's Blackie is fake, because he built it himself from parts and never claimed otherwise? But Fender have always trumpeted it as one of the finest examples of their marque.

[River]

Originally Posted by steamboat willy

So, are we saying then that Eric Clapton's Blackie is fake, because he built it himself from parts and never claimed otherwise? But Fender have always trumpeted it as one of the finest examples of their marque.

Yes, technically. The law defining "fakes" is not unclear. The ethical boundaries are much less clear.

[LEFTY LES]

Im so confused.

[River]

Originally Posted by LEFTY LES

Im so confused.

Then don't leave the thread so abruptly! Ask some questions!

[LEFTY LES]

Thanks river. I was kinda kiddin a bit. I dont really know what to say to all the fake topics floatin around. I cant spot one. Im no expert, so I dont even try. There's enough of that going around here. I understand the legal meaning of "fake". To me if a person loves his guitar its real to them and thats what matters. A friend of ours 15 year old kid has a Squier. Its not one of the better ones. Its a pile of shit. Buzzes,cuts in and out and just flat out sounds like crap. But heres the thing. This kid LOVES his guitar. I could never tell him what I really think of his axe and do what break his heart? And who am I to do such a thing. To this kid, his guitar is as real as a 59 Gibby LP. Thats real guys and like I said the only thing that matters.....to me anyway. That could very well could be true to 100's of people out there right now playing fake Epi's, Gibbys,Fenders and you name it. Some may know some may not. The way they got them may suck. Some might have got boned real hard but things can end well for them. If the people playing them are happy thats what's up. Thats music making people happy!!!

[River]

Originally Posted by LEFTY LES

Thanks river. I was kinda kiddin a bit. I dont really know what to say to all the fake topics floatin around. I cant spot one. Im no expert, so I dont even try. There's enough of that going around here. I understand the legal meaning of "fake". To me if a person loves his guitar its real to them and thats what matters. A friend of ours 15 year old kid has a Squier. Its not one of the better ones. Its a pile of shit. Buzzes,cuts in and out and just flat out sounds like crap. But heres the thing. This kid LOVES his guitar. I could never tell him what I really think of his axe and do what break his heart? And who am I to do such a thing. To this kid, his guitar is as real as a 59 Gibby LP. Thats real guys and like I said the only thing that matters.....to me anyway. That could very well could be true to 100's of people out there right now playing fake Epi's, Gibbys,Fenders and you name it. Some may know some may not. The way they got them may suck. Some might have got boned real hard but things can end well for them. If the people playing them are happy thats what's up. Thats music making people happy!!!

I'm all for that!

On the other hand, I gave my first lesson last week and when I let my student (rank beginner) play my R8 it made a difference in what he sounded like as I almost couldn't believe!

But admittedly this was not a "fake" issue - that's really a whoe 'nother can of worms, because many fakes are very good guitars. It was just a good (well set up?) guitar issue.

I just don't want to see people ripped off is all.

[Paul]

fender made the parts, you put it together, its still a fender.

if i wore out the neck on my strat and replaced it you could say it's a fake..not really, its still made by fender all i did was modify/repair it.

[Big_dawg]

so to state an obvious fact - Slash's max & derrigs are fakes....



but I bet no one here would turn them down........

[LEFTY LES]

I just don't want to see people ripped off is all.[/QUOTE]

I am all for that and if you have read any of my other posts thats big for me

I also 100% agree with what you said as well Paul.

[alligatorbling]

are we talking about genuine fakes or fake genuines?

[steamboat willy]

For fakes sake I don't know!!

[Kate033]

When I think of a "fake" guitar I usually think of a guitar that has been made by an unknown company that has stolen the specs and brand label of another company (ex. fender, gibson, epiphone, etc.) and put it on their guitar in an attempt to sell it as a genuine guitar made by the second company. When I think fake I think fraud.
A lot of guitars that people consider fake I consider something else all together.
For example:
Replicas not fakes - Burnys, Tokai, Greco, etc. These guitars are a quality replica of a Les Paul...they're not stealing a Gibson logo to put on thier headstock. They arn't trying to tell people these are made by Gibson when they are not.
Also, "partscasters" or original guitars that have had parts changed are still comprised of the original manufacturer made parts and while should not be considered all original stock guitars, they are simply guitars that have been modified/repaired...not fake. A lot of times they sound better than the originals, and the average player should be able to evaluate the changes made and make an educated decision about the guitar based on that. I changed the pickups on my Epiphone Les Paul Standard recently as a lot of members here do...that doesnt mean that my guitar is no longer an epi!
I think people in general are very quick to accuse guitars of being "fakes" without looking at the facts.
Just my $.02

[SKATTERBRANE]

Fenders are kit guitars, kinda like Lincoln logs, erector sets and Legos!

[slash300]

Well, its like if you adopt a child who is not yours but is part of your family, does it mean he/she is a fake child ? I dont think so. But if you buy a robot and call it your child then you have a fake child.
Same with guitars, if you buy genuine parts and put them together yourself, then its not called a fake..Imagin if you were working for Fender factory and bought some fender parts and build one at home, does that mean you built a fake one just becasue you were not buliding it at the factory ? I dont think so.
But if you buy non-fender parts and put them together and called it a fender than you have a fake one. I hope I helped

[Roman]

Oh boy, here we go again.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Norbe

Fenders are kit guitars, kinda like Lincoln logs, erector sets and Legos!

That's actually pretty close to the truth!

This whole discussion is ridiculous though, since now we're not talking about guitars anymore. Now we're trying to define some meaningless word. Honestly, if you build a guitar using a Fender neck and a Fender body, I would consider that a Fender. The only way it could be a fake, imo, is if you change the logo on the headstock and try to pass it off as something created by yourself...

Why is everybody so insecure about the logo on the guitar anyway? I think that's what it boils down to for some people, rather than trying to improve the actual quality of the instrument.

[LEFTY LES]

Here lets try this. WHO GIVES A FLYIN F%#$!!!!!! WHAT THE GUITAR IS. Here's an idea, LEARN TO PLAY THE F*$%#ING THING and stop with the name brand crap!!! Jeeze. Dont think we can beat this horse any more guys, its dead!!!

sorry i had to

[steamboat willy]

Someone else missing the point by a mile i think.

Listen, this is a forum for discussing guitars.

When I'm not on the forum I usually am playing my guitars and i kinda think I'm learning it ok but thanks for your interest.

When I'm not playing my guitar I like to jump on a forum and talk about guitars because guitars is what I like and if I'm not playing them I like talking about them

Since joining this forum i've posted a few questions in the hope of getting some fun debate going because otherwise the forum is just populated by dozens of posts under the subject heading "here's my new guitar - what do you think" and dozens of responses that all say "hey man, great guitar - well done" (even though it looks like every other vintage sunburst anyone has ever seen).

I started this thread because I thoght it would be a bit more of an interesting point to discuss than just posting a pic of my Epi and asking you all to coo over it.

Sadly, it seems people don't like to debate on this forum.

Perhaps i'll just stick to talking on the Strat forum, people are certainly friendlier there

[Jason]

Originally Posted by steamboat willy

Someone else missing the point by a mile i think.

Listen, this is a forum for discussing guitars.

When I'm not on the forum I usually am playing my guitars and i kinda think I'm learning it ok but thanks for your interest.

When I'm not playing my guitar I like to jump on a forum and talk about guitars because guitars is what I like and if I'm not playing them I like talking about them

Since joining this forum i've posted a few questions in the hope of getting some fun debate going because otherwise the forum is just populated by dozens of posts under the subject heading "here's my new guitar - what do you think" and dozens of responses that all say "hey man, great guitar - well done" (even though it looks like every other vintage sunburst anyone has ever seen).

I started this thread because I thoght it would be a bit more of an interesting point to discuss than just posting a pic of my Epi and asking you all to coo over it.

Sadly, it seems people don't like to debate on this forum.

Perhaps i'll just stick to talking on the Strat forum, people are certainly friendlier there

Don't take it personal, man. I think some people are just sick of the same old debates, and this is one of them. I honestly don't think anybody is pissed off at you personally... it's just maybe we need some more meaty topics to discuss at this point.

[River]

Originally Posted by JasonC

Don't take it personal, man. I think some people are just sick of the same old debates, and this is one of them. I honestly don't think anybody is pissed off at you personally... it's just maybe we need some more meaty topics to discuss at this point.

Well, the person who unloaded on him hasn't been around all that long. Some people just like to unload. If people are sick of discussing something, they should just pass on by...

[LEFTY LES]

Originally Posted by River

Well, the person who unloaded on him hasn't been around all that long. Some people just like to unload. If people are sick of discussing something, they should just pass on by...

I was not "unloading" on anyone River. I didnt mean to be disrespectful to you SteamBoat. And I didnt miss the point man. That statment I made WAS AND IS MY OPINION!!! Some one prove me wrong that it really does matter if your guitars are MIM, MIJ MIA or made on your kitchen table. To me it makes absoultly no difference. To me the ablity of the guy holding the guitar is all that matters. I know I haven't been on this forum long but I've been playing guitar half my life. So that being said why is everyone so damn sensitive?? I wasnt unloading River, (sorry if it sounded like I was) I was just expressing how I feel about this topic thats all. Thats why were here. Dont get me wrong Boat I do agree with you man. Its just the old real vs fake debate (or any variation of it) IMO is getting a little old thats all im saying.

[LEFTY LES]

OH I also understand that this particular debate has branched out to.... if I build a Fender Strat out of Fender Strat parts like Clapton did on my kitchen table is it a real Fender? I get it. I understand what your asking Boat. I say as long as the parts you use are authentic Fender then Yes. Its easy if there copy or look a like parts trying to be passed off as Fender then no man. Its not the real deal. Thats how I see it man

Peace Bro

[steamboat willy]

cool

[10jessy]

That's kinda funny. I have a guitar that I have pretty much taken apart
because I was checking out to see if it was OK and I am still not sure if
its a fake, but all the parts are epiphone and it sure plays great, so I don't really care if it is or not. It would be splitting hairs to wonder about it and I'm actually loving it so that to me is the important thing.

[steamboat willy]

Perhaps I was wrong to put the word 'fake' in the subject title, because to be honest I'm as sick of that conversation as most. My question wasn't really about fakes but whether, if you build a telecaster out of all genuine Fender parts, can it be considered a Fender? I think most people have answered in line with what I thought in that it can be considered a Fender

After all If I bought a genuine Fender broke the neck on it and replaced that, then decided I wanted to put some Fender noiseless pick-ups in it and a bit later on I damaged the body so I replaced that.....

You can see where I'm going - I could end up with a Guitar where the only original piece on the stock guitar was the jack socket. Can I sell it on still as a genuine Fender guitar or a Fender Jack socket attached to replacement parts?

The answer I'm sure is that it is still a genuine Fender which answers my question in that I can regard my Telecaster as a genine Fender Telecaster albeit I cannot claim it is a MIJ Telecaster even tho I used all Japanese parts.

[delkabong]

This is a great topic. Good to know how to spot a fake. Great information. I would say the difference should be is it "counterfeit", rather than fake, imho. Fake is harder to nail down than counterfeit. It's more of an opinion. Counterfeit is obvious. Counterfeit, imho, is the intent to imitate with the intention of misrepresentation. And counterfeit usually sucks. I imagine these counterfeit epis are complete crap to play.

If I make a telecaster on my kitchen table and the neck is a warmouth, is it a fake? Not necessarily...but if I stick a Fender registered decal on it, is it counterfeit? Probably in most guitar people's opinions.

If Warren DiMartini picks it up, loves it and records Ratt's chart-topping, comeback album with it and tours 20 cities using only that guitar(c'mon this is fantasy here), then the guitar becomes famous with guitar guys over the land and it is worth more because of its star affiliation.

Now, that guitar is a fake/couterfeit fender. But what if someone else takes genuine fender period correct parts and builds a replica of Warren's counterfeit guitar using real usa fender parts and puts it on ebay claiming(falsely) that it is the actual Warren DiMartini guitar? Is that guitar a fake? Or better yet, what if when I made warrens counterfeit, i copied an actual USA 68 telecaster that was mine when I made warren's and now I try to sell it for more than it would normally go for, claiming that it is the actual guitar ...is it a fake?

On the other hand, For me to spend money on a guitar, it needs to play and sound better than what I paid for it. If someone can make a les paul that plays better than a gibson les paul, then it should be worth more than a gibson. But if you could make a better guitar than a gibson, why would you want to misrepresent it and claim it's a gibson. You could give it your own name and be proud, I would think.

And one more question, EVH's limited edition Fender! Wasn't his original guitar a Kramer? or some other miscellaneous custom Strat copy to start with. Now he has one of the most expensive fenders that actually copy his copy. This is confusing... LOL