Help! Need advice! Ebay item not shipped: Jimmy Page / Tom Murphy $$$

[JimmyAce2006]

Next move? called my home owners insurance company to see if identity theft is covered. The answer is that it is not on my policy, but they did ask if I would like to add it! The middle man is checking his policy too. See, if he was to give me a payment for $15K, this whole thing would go away.......even if it went on his credit card! Imagine, no jail time! haha

[guitarfish]

How in Toledo is EBAY responsible for this???

eBay Choosing a Payment Method section in Help:
"Checks, money orders, and bank wire transfers are not allowed for most eBay purchases. Payment is extremely difficult to recover in cases of fraud."

[GibsonSlash]

Hope it turns out well.
Wish you luck bro.

Originally Posted by JimmyAce2006

Next move? called my home owners insurance company to see if identity theft is covered. The answer is that it is not on my policy, but they did ask if I would like to add it! The middle man is checking his policy too. See, if he was to give me a payment for $15K, this whole thing would go away.......even if it went on his credit card! Imagine, no jail time! haha

[JimmyAce2006]

Another interesting article on what happened. Again, thanks to the mlp member who helped me locate the mule / middle man. Otherwise I would still be wondering where my guitar is.

'Money Mules' Help Haul Cyber Criminals' Loot - washingtonpost.com

According to that article, ebay says the middle man is completely responsible. So even if I had used paypal, they may not have compensated me. But my CC company would have probably made them eat it.

[JimmyAce2006]

There is another guy in Japan who was defrauded by the same ebayer a few days after me, before the middle man figured things out. The Japanese guy lost $9500. I wonder if and when I should get him involved. I don't want to get the middle man scared off before I get all the info I need for the authorities. What do you think? Should I get my own business in order & then give the Japanese guy some contact info for the middle man?

[jomo]

I think the "contacting 20/20" or something is an excellent idea. I wonder if the FBI stormed home boy's computer if they would be able to crack this? I bet the "poor unemployed American" is still in communications with the Russians.
As far as some type of fund raiser to help Jimmy? I'd be willing to help out with that. I don't have the time to take it by the horns but I'm willing to help somehow. If anyone wants to put their heads together and think of something like maybe everyone donate a piece of gear and do a big auction. Heck, do it on ebay and go public about why this gear is for sale!
Thoughts?

[denwing]

Let's see... 15k to lay down on a guitar, but, unwilling to consult with or hire a lawyer because it would cost a lot of money. Sympethetic to the middle-man that was part of a fraud scheme, & trying to work with him to possibly have him hand over some commision money he made.. or so he says. I'm perplexed.

[ellem52]

Not because anyone has done anything wrong here, or because there's anything wrong with this thread... but I think this thread should be pulled to keep JimmyAce's plans secret

[ZombieAttack]

I'm perplexed as well. Sh*t rolls downhill. Pursue the middleman for the 15K immediately using the cops, FBI, and consult a lawyer ASAP. His problem is definitely not your problem.

Very sorry for your loss.

To all those contemplating a large purchase on Ebay:

Check for gaps in the sellers activity - this one had about 4 years of inactivity.
Correspond with the seller and ask lots of questions about the guitar.
Never correspond using an e-mail listed on the auction page.
Ask for more pictures of the guitar.
Ask for pictures of the guitar next to a recent newspaper - as a seller I would do this in a heartbeat to sell a guitar.
Never never never send a wire.
Use a credit card that has excellent buyer protection - call your credit card company to find out what kind of protection they offer.

It's a jungle out there.

[JimmyAce2006]

Originally Posted by jomo

As far as some type of fund raiser to help Jimmy? I'd be willing to help out with that. I don't have the time to take it by the horns but I'm willing to help somehow. If anyone wants to put their heads together and think of something like maybe everyone donate a piece of gear and do a big auction. Heck, do it on ebay and go public about why this gear is for sale!
Thoughts?

Haha! Thanks for the offer! Send payments to my paypal account? hee hee hee! Everyone on here has been so good. But I think that would be asking a lot.

[nicolasrivera]

Hello Jimmy. I'm new here and i'm in Honduras, the Mahogany wood land!!!

I'm a very active ebay buyer, i have bought a custom 24 artist PRS and sent the money to the seller via western union, it was a big risk but i did spoke with him several times before the bid ended and i got a pretty perfect guitar.

I recently bought my first Les Paul on ebay too for a great deal and the seller was very nice and has very positive FB. I got the les paul and man, what a great guitar, the best guitar in my collection, totally kicked the prs's ass.

Your problem has me thinking a lot of my buying habits on ebay and I'll be more careful on my next guitar purchase, because i feel I'm getting a little bit too confident and my luck could change any time. And i see now that Ebay will not respond as they promise with this kind of problems.

Hope this sad episode come to a happy ending for you.

Nicolas.

[MrRhoads]

Originally Posted by JimmyAce2006

Does anyone know the name of a good attorney who has experience wrangling deadbeat sellers on ebay? I bought a 2004 Jimmy Page (Tom Murphy aged) Les Paul on ebay on Thanksgiving, nearly 2 weeks ago. I paid the guy via bank to bank wire the following day. I have been told by his bank and my bank that it cleared that day. His terms for the deal in the auction state that he will ship as soon as the payment clears. Apparently that does not hold true. He is 1-2 days delayed in replying to emails. He gave me two phone numbers; both go straight to voice mail. One of them is the number on file with ebay. And he won't return any calls. He did call me once - a week after I bought it - right after I threatened action against him. His feedback is perfect with nearly 500 feedback score. He has recently sold a few other guitars / items. I contacted a few people who left him feedback & nobody had any trouble. He told me he is going through a divorce and has been real busy and is out of town. Said he would ship the guitar via UPS overnight when he gets back Monday (today). Got an email this morning at 11:30 stating that he was flying back in 30 minutes (flight is not long from where he is coming from). Said he would go to the bank to get the guitar out of a vault, then ship the guitar today. I have not heard back from him. Called both of his phone numbers & left messages. Did not respond to any emails. I opened a case with ebay. I think I may need to hire an attorney. Anyone know someone good? Any other advice?

Get yourself a attorney talk it throug but i think he aint sending that guitar.
A similar thing happened to me but it was a camera lens.
I live in sweden, the guy made the same sort of trouble as your guy does and he had 2young kids so i said to him "money back or the police comes for you" i hade his social sercurity number which he had given me and his adress and the bank backed me up with proof of money transfer.
But when i told him about the police he finally gave me back all my money...
So just tell him that if the guitar hasn´t shipped "a day of your choice" you will take action and make sure you do... Haven´t read all threads but will do to follow the story..

Good luck hope you get the guitar...

[specflec]

I am perplexed - obviously because I don't know enough about how all this works. But, in my simple mind, it seems as if, yes the "poor American" who supposedly was duped, is responsible. What happened down the road is not your concern. He is responsible, as we all are, for our actions. And he knows more than he is telling. But...

My biggest beef in this is eBay. They are running a business, yes they have disclaimers, and they obviously have powerful legal teams in the wings. But they, like any of our businesses are responsible for their actions as well. They were the vehicle that created the sale. I would seem to me that a hefty lawsuit directed right at their left eyeball would get their attention - yes, legal fees and hassle. But I am not confident that you will avoid hassles in any way you pursue this. A very large lawsuit and lots of public attention as accompaniment is not something eBay relishes. I bet a few late night talk shows would love to chat with you and others that have found themselves in the same situation.

eBay holds some responsibility here and no amount of posturing behind disclaimers or any other BS cuts it.

Oh yes. I hope you find satisfaction in the conclusion of this nasty mess. Best to you.

Michael

[guitarfish]

Someone explain to me how eBay is at fault. How can they control how people pay one another? At the heart of eBay is a feedback-based honor system. There are risks involved, after all, buying sight unseen, sending money, trusting the person will send you the goods as described, etc. Everyone knows this going in. It's not a store like Walmart.

They have a lot of measures in place. For $15K, did anyone think of using the escrow system? I fret over a $300 purchase for cryin' out loud, I can't imagine clicking the button to send 5 figures without making sure every base was covered and I was protected. Jimmy sounds like a nice decent guy, but in this case, a little naive or inexperienced. The seller in this case - whether he's ignorant or innocent is irrelevent. He is responsible. Period.

If eBay is forced to police this kind of thing, everyone will piss and moan about the effects that will bring. Higher fees, delays in shipping, etc. By the time that's done it won't be eBay anymore.

Millions of transactions take place on eBay everday. It's an auction house, a mechanism to link buyer and seller. If you choose to use Paypal, which they own, then you get some more protections. That's about the extent of it folks. There's a lot of scum out there in the world, and the anonymity of the internet, and in this case, eBay, is a fertile place for them to hide. Buyer beware.

If you aren't comfortable with that - there's Guitar Center.

[mdr40z]

Originally Posted by guitarfish

Regardless of whatever happened on the seller's end, the bottom line (as far as you as the buyer is concerned), is that you and he had a binding legal agreement of sale. He owes you either the axe, or $15K. You aren't responsible for where the money went. Don't even waste your time getting into that trap. It's just a distraction.

Considering the amount of money, yeah, I'd probably be seeking legal representation, and filing against this guy. Let him tell his story to the judge. Even if the money is gone, you can still get a judgement against him.

I hate to sound cruel, but maybe your experience can be a lesson to others here. Very sorry man.

AGREE 100% WITH THIS... he just may have to take out a 2nd mortgage, and I don't believe for one second that he wasn't part of this scam in some way.

[Broken]

I look forward to a possitive resolution to this.

Not trying to compare...

Just over a month ago I bought a Marshall JCM Slash on eBay and when it took more than a few days to be shipped I started to feel uncomfortable. But then it did and I had a tracking number from USPS.

Once the amp arrived I was happy to see it looking just like the pics but once I started to play it and found that, although the seller said it was in perfect working order, it needs to be retubed badly. It had the original factory tubes from 1996 and couldn't even compare in volume to my DSL 50.

The point of this is that the only thing I have ever bought or have every considered buying on eBay was large ticket, hard to find items. Now I don't think I will even be going there for that again.

Get legal help immediately. As much as we here are all good for moral support and sharing our experiences you need to get a pro helping you to resolve this. Once you have legal advice you will get the directions and answers that you are looking for even if the answer is that you just lost this time.

Good luck.

[Scarab Exec]

Originally Posted by JimmyAce2006

I plan to turn it over to law enforcement when I file a case tomorrow.

I hope you follow through with this and good luck. I'd put the fire under this guy's ass as well as ebay. Sorry, but for $15,000.00, I don't buy his hard luck story. Take it all the way. You should not have to lose all that money.

[gearitis]

Less than one hour ago I heard a segment on the radio about exactly what just happened to Jimmy. They talked about the unsuspecting mule/middle men/money launderers, international criminals, bank wires, etc., and how it is one of the fastest growing forms of cyber crime.

As someone mentioned it might be time to use an escrow service in some cases. I used escrow.com for the purchase of a 1966 Super Reverb from a zero feedback eBay seller a few years ago. Everything went well, but I wouldn't have bought that amp if the seller wouldn't have had agreed to the escrow. eBay's new rules now force an escrow type situation in some cases, but eBay chooses in which transactions they hold the money.

[LoFi DillusionsofGranduer]

I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but why would you spend 15k on a guitar you have not held in your own hands. You are the guy these people have been waiting for. Easy money for them, and very little chance you will ever see the money or the guitar. Good Luck.

[xcomax]

jimmyace. I send money over western union all the time. they usually ask for ID before cashing in money whether sending or recieving...so I was thinking if that guy sent money to russia that would need him to fill an application stating his name and the name and address of the reciever..especially that the amount is large I also know that any wire transfer of anykind WU moneygram or just regular bank to bank wire transfer over 9,999$ is monitored by the US goverment or something like that..I know that because I send money to the US from lebanon and sometimes vice versa .. I think it definatly could be tracked ..I would'nt trust the american dude either maybe he is in it in some way too.?..good luck.I can't believe ebay is so mellow about it too.

[Saiko]

I say a group of us go pay a visit to the American "Middle Man." A small group, not overly threatening at first appearance. Guarantee we get a lot more info than we are now.

Seriously, I buy stuff on E-Bay all the time but after things like this I am worried about spending more than a few-hundred bucks on there. I really hope this whole mess comes around for ya somehow.

[Last]

Seems to me that eBay would have some responsibility especially if they received "Final Value Fees" on this auction.

If however, the auction/sale was completed outside of eBay then I would think they've got little to no culpability in this transaction.

[JimmyAce2006]

Originally Posted by xcomax

jimmyace. I send money over western union all the time. they usually ask for ID before cashing in money whether sending or recieving...so I was thinking if that guy sent money to russia that would need him to fill an application stating his name and the name and address of the reciever..especially that the amount is large I also know that any wire transfer of anykind WU moneygram or just regular bank to bank wire transfer over 9,999$ is monitored by the US goverment or something like that..I know that because I send money to the US from lebanon and sometimes vice versa .. I think it definatly could be tracked ..I would'nt trust the american dude either maybe he is in it in some way too.?..good luck.I can't believe ebay is so mellow about it too.

Yes, they send it in increments of less than $9,999 to as many people as they need. In this case, they needed 2 people.

[JimmyAce2006]

Originally Posted by Last

Seems to me that eBay would have some responsibility especially if they received "Final Value Fees" on this auction.

If however, the auction/sale was completed outside of eBay then I would think they've got little to no culpability in this transaction.

They got their perfunctory 3%ish for a final value fee as well as a minimal listing fee.

[moff40]

Originally Posted by xcomax

jimmyace. ...I would'nt trust the american dude either maybe he is in it in some way too.?...

As far as I can see. the American guy with the hard luck story IS in on it. And as far as we know, that's probably where it ends. No Russian, no real money transfer, except into his bank account, maybe in the Caymans.

A con operation nowadays isn't just a fake ad and running away with the cash. There can be a very complex and calculated infrastructure set up, especially if they're into the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars PER VICTIM. He has offered no tangible proof, other than some documents he was to have faxed. If indeed the documents were faxed, they were probably forgeries. His stories about being unemployed, broke, married with children, and an unwitting "mule" for some Russian are all lies, created by a con-man, to deflect the heat off him, or to get you to give up altogether.

Now he's manipulating your conscience. You wouldn't be the first to get convinced to go away by the "I'm a victim, too" story, or bought off by "refunding" some of the money. If he's successful at getting you to go away for $2000.00, he still gets to keep $13,000.00, and that's a pretty good haul for doing nothing...

DON'T BELIEVE ANY OF IT!!! DON'T GIVE UP!

[Studio06]

We are all Les Paul Brothers and Sisters, lets do something. Get the ebay contact email for fraud, post it on the forum, and lets all email ebay and say we are from the My Les Paul Forum and we are boycotting ebay unless this thing is resolved!!!!! I don't mean to sound naive but if we all keep sending emails and links to this forum, the bad press may force them to take action and help. We can't accept that ebay won't do anything to help Jimmy out!

[Jupa]

Originally Posted by Studio06

We are all Les Paul Brothers and Sisters, lets do something. Get the ebay contact email for fraud, post it on the forum, and lets all email ebay and say we are from the My Les Paul Forum and we are boycotting ebay unless this thing is resolved!!!!! I don't mean to sound naive but if we all keep sending emails and links to this forum, the bad press may force them to take action and help. We can't accept that ebay won't do anything to help Jimmy out!

eBay doesn't have his money though......

[Studio06]

The transaction was done on their site, they took a cut of the money. If there was no ebay this never would of happened... he never would have sent the cash if it wasn't for all the positive posts, Ebay wants us to believe its a safe site with security measures they need to step up to the plate. they took a piece of the transaction to provide a service, ( a safe smooth transaction) this is their problem. We can't just keep letting them off the hook. What the hell are they making $$$$ for? Just so that when there is a problem to say, sorry not our fault.

[Jupa]

Originally Posted by Studio06

The transaction was done on their site, they took a cut of the money. If there was no ebay this never would of happened... he never would have sent the cash if it wasn't for all the positive posts, Ebay wants us to believe its a safe site with security measures they need to step up to the plate. they took a piece of the transaction to provide a service, ( a safe smooth transaction) this is their problem

I'm not saying eBay is not at fault. What I'm trying to say is eBay isn't going to do anything. If there was a lawsuit against eBay, I'd guess their main defenses would be:

1. The site warns users of wire transfer
2. eBay was never in the possession of the $15,000

In court, that is pretty substantial evidence. With eBay's lawyer team, I'd bet they'd be found innocent of all charges. Unless somehow the case got into the public eye.

[JimmyAce2006]

If ebay did not listen to the power seller boycott when they made listing fee changes and feedback changes (sellers can not leave buyers negative feedback) earlier this year, they will not listen to the MLP forum members either. We are much smaller than their power sellers who sell everything under the sun.