Buzzing, Band-aids and Bailing Wire

[River]

I've got a guitar that needs some fine fret work to get rid of some annoying "buzz" problems (rattles, really, in my book). I've known this for some time, but getting it to a good tech or luthier is problematic, and it was tolerable until the recent cold weather set in. With that it got really bad, having to set the action ridiculously high to make it tolerable again.

I'm a klutz, and do not trust myself with sharp tools or abrasives around a guitar, yet I was able to get it set up better than it ever has been, and can now enjoy playing it until I can get it in for a Plek job. So I thought I'd share my steps to success for the benefit of my fellow klutzes.

I sighted down the board and noted that the relief had greatly increased since the last time I checked it. This I chalk up to the weather. Over a period of about an hour and a half I tightened the truss rod until the relief was barely noticeable - to match my other LPs. I lowered the action to where I prefer it and could hear some improvement, but not enough.

Next I took off the strings and used the handle/bubble-holder part of a carpenters square to check for high frets with the "rocking" test. Those handles have three nice broad straightedges of varying lengths, and one or the other work pretty well all the way up and down the board. I found two that are high for sure - the 4th and 16th. I put the strings back on and confirmed those findings fretting and plucking. From that I deduce that the first fret is high as well, but don't know how to verify that.

Knowing for sure that I have at least two high fret spots and can only get the action but so low, I twiddled with the bridge until I found a decent compromise of height and rattling, and found a spot where only the low E was unacceptable. I did a little more reading on the 'net, and was led to a diagnosis of the nut slot being too deep. While I think it's really the 1st and 4th frets that are to blame, I ripped out a small wad of cigarette filter, rolled it up firm with my fingers, slid it under the E string at the nut and tuned back up. That took care of the E string rattling on 1st and 4th, without raising the action up near the nut enough that you can feel any difference, the rattle just went away.

You may find this helpful, or have some advice for me on how to do it better, even if I can't really do it "right".

[r9in09]

you should just try leveling yourself, it's not so tough.

[River]

Originally Posted by r9in09

you should just try leveling yourself, it's not so tough.

Oh, I'll get around to it, as I did installing pickups and doing '50s wiring. But I ain't gonna start on this particular guitar, and it's currently the only one that needs it.

[st.bede]

great idea...I am glad that you got it to work out

[kernelofwisdom]

a little super glue can raise a low nut slot up. some people mix it with something but if it just needs to come up a bit, the glue will do it by itself.

[st.bede]

Originally Posted by kernelofwisdom

a little super glue can raise a low nut slot up. some people mix it with something but if it just needs to come up a bit, the glue will do it by itself.

thank you

[River]

Originally Posted by kernelofwisdom

a little super glue can raise a low nut slot up. some people mix it with something but if it just needs to come up a bit, the glue will do it by itself.

If this setup holds for a day or two, I'll give that a shot. I'll have so much masking tape and newspaper in use to prevent an accident it'll look like the guitar's in for abdominal surgery!

How does one diagnose a high first fret? The rocking test doesn't work up there.

The cigarette filter does work quite well, and is a great way to prototype such a fix before doing something more difficult to reverse. I've got one on the B string of my Variax, too, to account for a slot that was cut too wide. If I sacrificed a new cigarette instead of pulling one out of the ashtray, they'd be color-matched to the nuts!

[LPGeoff]

Thank You for the tip River.

That's why I joined here.

That, and to get flamed on occasion.

I'm a glutton for punishment, I've been married 22 years.

[kernelofwisdom]

Originally Posted by River

If this setup holds for a day or two, I'll give that a shot. I'll have so much masking tape and newspaper in use to prevent an accident it'll look like the guitar's in for abdominal surgery!

How does one diagnose a high first fret? The rocking test doesn't work up there.

The cigarette filter does work quite well, and is a great way to prototype such a fix before doing something more difficult to reverse. I've got one on the B string of my Variax, too, to account for a slot that was cut too wide. If I sacrificed a new cigarette instead of pulling one out of the ashtray, they'd be color-matched to the nuts!

I've used the glue trick where a slip of paper in the slot was enough to stop the buzzing. I applied it with a needle - just the smallest amount is all you want. Yep, mask it off or else you're sure to drop a bit. :-D

[standard man]

Thanks River! Great stuff here!

[vai2iant]

Before i got my graphite gibson nut, i used those plastic cheap pink q-tips that are hollow inside, not the q-tips that have that lolli-pop type stick, and i cut lengths to match the nut, trimmed it to be hidden under the string an voila! rose my strings up =]. be VERY careful and trim it down good because if u have a plastic nut it will break on the E and e seats. my low e nut corner snapped cuz my crutch was too big =\. Works great and its stealthy!!!

[dspelman]

Originally Posted by River

How does one diagnose a high first fret? The rocking test doesn't work up there.

Have you tried a shorter straight-edge? One about 4" should do. And a set of feeler gauges. If you put the 4" straightedge on the first fret and on the third fret (for example) and check to see if you can get a feeler gauge under the straight edge at the 2nd fret, you have either a high first fret or a low 2nd fret.

[River]

Originally Posted by dspelman

Have you tried a shorter straight-edge? One about 4" should do. And a set of feeler gauges. If you put the 4" straightedge on the first fret and on the third fret (for example) and check to see if you can get a feeler gauge under the straight edge at the 2nd fret, you have either a high first fret or a low 2nd fret.

Ah... Thank you!

[Jason]

Even a bleeding heart like Riv has a little redneck in him!

[RobS]

[QUOTE=River;1464845]
How does one diagnose a high first fret? The rocking test doesn't work up there.

QUOTE]

press string down between 2nd and 3rd fret, then tap the string just in front or behind the 1st fret. You should hear a 'ting' type sound if the nut is too low.

[River]

Originally Posted by RobS

press string down between 2nd and 3rd fret, then tap the string just in front or behind the 1st fret. You should hear a 'ting' type sound if the nut is too low.

Ah! Thank you!

[Dr.Distortion]

I clean out the nut slot and pack some bone powder I make by sanding a chunk of bone.
Then I just drop a bit of super glue in and voila, no nut slot. Then I re-file the slot.
I've done the straight super glue before, but it seemed to bind a bit more than when I used the bone powder...

[RobS]

Originally Posted by River

Ah! Thank you!

Sorry, I meant to say If you do not hear the 'tang' then the nut slot is too low. It will be more evident with the bass side as opposed to the treble side.

Rob

[sktn77a]

Originally Posted by RobS

Sorry, I meant to say If you do not hear the 'tang' then the nut slot is too low. It will be more evident with the bass side as opposed to the treble side.

Another way is to try to slide a single sheet of paper (xerox/printer, regular weight) between the string and the 1st fret while holding the string down between the 2nd and 3rd frets. If it slides between them with just the slightest resistance, the nut slot is just right. If it snags and you can't easily pull it through, the nut slot is too low. Similar to the "ting" test but you need to hear a a few of those before you know what sounds right (if you really have to push the string down to get it to touch the 1st fret, then the nut slot is too high).

I wouldn't mess with a file on your frets unless you've done this before. You need special/additional tools (a good flat fret file, crowning files, etc) and the knowledge/experience to use them. Then again, you could always learn the hard way (on your own guitar)!

[River]

Important update and personal breakthrough that might be of great benefit to some of you Historic owners out there:

I was checking intonation last night, and the low E needed a tweak. The saddle screw would not turn. I relieved the string tension, but it still wouldn't budge. I got out my reading glasses and saw this:



The screw is tilted skyward, and the plucked string is rattling against it like a ball bearing in a trash can.

I took the bridge off and tried to re-seat the screw, to no avail.



I could see that the screw's path is not straight. Being careful but applying as much force as I was comfortable with, I got the screw to turn. Lo and behold, for half a turn it moved easily and sat back down where it belonged. But, at the end of that half turn, it went wonky again and seized back up, tilted skyward again.

Watching it turn, the little collar is wonky - not parallel to the screw head and not perpendicular to the shaft. I compared it to the other five screws and found that three of them are fine, three of them are crooked and essentially useless. If you park them where they're loose, they don't stick up. Tighten or loosen them until they won't go any further, and they stick up.

I chose not to just make them comfortable, but also to flip the whole bridge so they cannot be hit by a vibrating string:



Yes, that's a Bigsby on there but no, it's not the cause of the problem. I've been chasing this problem since forever, and the Bigsby's only been on there for a couple of weeks. I took all the crap out of the nut slots, tuned back up, and am now 98+% rattle-free! WOOT! I may still need some nut and fret work, but nothing near what I suspected. That would only be in pursuit of perfection now, and nothing's perfect.

I'm in the market for a new bridge, and strongly suspect that the infamous retaining wire gets blamed for rattling that is not its fault.

[mudfinger]

Nice save, River!

You weren't using a sledgehammer instead of a violin bow Jimmy Page style or anything like that were ya?

I mean, how could a screw get like that, I wonder? I have a pretty large surplus of those things, gonna check thru it and see if any of mine are deformed like that.

Very strange; this is exactly the sorta thing that Gibson QC is infamous for, but I've never seen or heard of this particular problem; although, I'm willing to bet it usually gets solved with a fresh bridge and zero diagnosis.

[River]

Originally Posted by mudfinger

<snip>
I mean, how could a screw get like that, I wonder? I have a pretty large surplus of those things, gonna check thru it and see if any of mine are deformed like that. <snip>

I don't see any way they didn't come from the machine shop like that.

[mudfinger]

Originally Posted by River

I don't see any way they didn't come from the machine shop like that.

All it took was one guy paying attention to solve the problem; shame it couldn't have been one of the 4 (at least) guys who handled the guitar before you did. I bet at least 3 of them possess better qualifications than either of us for this sorta thing.

[HOT-BRIT]

I

[HOT-BRIT]

I have the same problem on a ABR bridge on a 2003 gibson ES335, the e sting bridge screw is fautty like on yours, and it buzes some times, I have to find a new screw from some were, any one know were we can find them ?
thanks
Philip

[River]

Originally Posted by HOT-BRIT

I have the same problem on a ABR bridge on a 2003 gibson ES335, the e sting bridge screw is fautty like on yours, and it buzes some times, I have to find a new screw from some were, any one know were we can find them ?
thanks
Philip

EDIT: IGNORE THIS EXCEPT FOR EDUCATION ABOUT CAREFUL SHOPPING - FINE PRINT SAYS "DOES NOT FIT GIBSON".

I'm just starting my parts hunt, but I found these:



STEWMAC.COM : Pictures of Saddle Screws for ABR-1 Tune-o-matic Bridges

[HOT-BRIT]

thanks